What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

Do the Calvinist Elect know who they are, or not?

Have you read any of Calvin's writings?

Is Romans 8:16-17 true or not?

 

[Hmm]

Have you read any of Calvin's writings?

Is Romans 8:16-17 true or not?

I asked you a very simple question Clare but it's up to you whether you answer it or not.

This isn't an answer. It's an example of the word games we spoke about earlier and tbh if I wanted that I'd rather do a crossword.

 

[Cormack]

I read this one, was good:

the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.
​

Due to the logical consistency of babies being born already stained by sin, and having no innate justifying feature in themselves (think @Mark Quayle writing nothing is good in me save Christ,) many Calvinists argue that even infants populate hell. What’s wrong with Calvinism? Babies in hell.

 

[Clare73]

I asked you a very simple question Clare and it's up to you whether you answer it or not.

You did. . .and Romans 8:16-17 is the simple answer to your simple question.

This isn't an answer.

Romans 8:16-17 is the only answer I have.

Sorry you do not see it as adequate.

Questions?

 

[Hmm]

You did. . .and Romans 8:16-17 is the simple answer to your simple question.

A Yes or a No, whatever you thought, would have been simpler.

Questions?

I'd like to but, honestly, is there any point?

 

[Clare73]

A Yes or a No, whatever you thought, would have been simpler.

And you would not have asked how I knew "yes" or "no"?

To which I would then have made the response to which you are now objecting.

Not seeing the problem here.

 

[Hmm]

And you would not have asked how I knew "yes" or "no"?

To which I would then have made the response to which you are not objecting.

Not seeing the problem here.

Is that a Yes or a No?

Excuse me for a while. I'm just settling down with the Times crossword now. Two across. Large Australian bird, three letters beginning with 'E'. Hmm. This is obviously going to take some time so catch you later.

 

[Der Alte]

I read this one, was good:

the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.​

Due to the logical consistency of babies being born already stained by sin, and having no innate justifying feature in themselves (think @Mark Quayle writing nothing is good in me save Christ,) many Calvinists argue that even infants populate hell. What’s wrong with Calvinism? Babies in hell.

Exactly!

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

This covers children, infants, the mentally challenged, peoples living in some far off jungle or desert. etc.

 

[Der Alte]

Is that a Yes or a No?
Excuse me for a while. I'm just settling down with the Times crossword now. Two across. Large Australian bird, three letters beginning with 'E'. Hmm. This is obviously going to take some time so catch you later.

Another answer that would fit "Australian helicopter unit in Viet Nam" Also known as "Experimental Military Unit."

 

[Mark Quayle]

That’s nonsensical to me, you could explain again in more plain language. God knows which options are possible and so can we, for example, let’s say you have the choice between drinking a can of beer or a bottle of water. They’re both right in front of you. Would you argue that the mere possibility of having one or the other is unknown to you? You just inform yourself based upon weather, time of day, tastes, brand, and then you choose.

Yet, once you choose, let's say, the bottle of water, it has become obvious that it was the only actual thing to happen, as it the case with all choices. You have no basis but presumption upon which to claim that the beer could have happened. You had two options, but only one was predestined: precisely the one you chose. And what is predestined ALWAYS happens.

God knows who’s going to be saved, so to enlist you in order to make false offers of salvation to doomed reprobates created for destruction is peak insincerity.

Cool terminology, "peak insincerity"! You're welcome.

God not only "knows who's going to be saved", and who isn't, but he also causes the effects brought about by the Gospel, both to the elect and to everyone else —that is, the Gospel attracts some but drives others away, being foolishness to them.

We don’t have to know who the elect are, God knows and has decided to commission Christians to share the gospel with the whole world. Under Calvinism Jesus didn’t die for the whole world, but God has told Christians to make an offer to the whole world. That sir is an insincere, false invitation for redemption.

Once again, the offer is valid, and the choice is real. In your example, if one chooses the beer, the beer would have been what is predestined; if the water, then the water. It is not so complicated as you wish to straighten up for your mind to handle. Perhaps the example I gave about Ninevah flew by you too quickly. If God offers something, and one accepts it, the offer was real, so why don't the ultimately lost accept it —because it was not a real offer to them? Is it not, rather, because they are reprobate?

 

[John Mullally]

Yet, once you choose, let's say, the bottle of water, it has become obvious that it was the only actual thing to happen, as it the case with all choices. You have no basis but presumption upon which to claim that the beer could have happened. You had two options, but only one was predestined: precisely the one you chose. And what is predestined ALWAYS happens.

Why can't it be a simple choice without it being something predestined?

Paul tells believers to pray for all men for a few reasons in 1 Timothy 2:1-6. Two of those reasons include that (a) God desires all men be saved and (b) that Christ gave himself a ransom for all. That is not congruent with a God who predestines some to eternal life and the rest to eternal flame.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

 

[John Mullally]

The "our" are all those who recite the creed. But Calvinism does not teach this. It says that Christ only died for the sins of the Elect and no-one knows who these are until the final judgement is revealed. So how can they say "For our sake" Jesus died when they don't know whether He did or not?

Peter had Christ's ransom being paid for the False Prophets & Teachers in 2 Peter 2.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.​

 

[RickReads]

Peter had Christ's ransom being paid for the False Teachers in 2 Peter 2.

2 Peter 2:2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.​

That's an excellent proof verse. I`ve been looking for one like that recently.

 

[Der Alte]

Why can't it be a simple choice without it being something predestined?
Paul tells believers to pray for all men for a few reasons in 1 Timothy 2:1-6. Two of those reasons include that (a) God desires all men be saved and (b) that Christ gave himself a ransom for all. That is not congruent with a God who predestines some to eternal life and the rest to eternal flame.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

​

But Jesus said

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[iwbswiaihl]

predestined [prēˈdestind] ADJECTIVE(of an outcome or course of events) determined in advance by divine will or fate:

1. "our predestined end"
   synonyms:
   preordained · ordained · foreordained · destined · predetermined · fated · predestinated

I have never been in any church group other than Baptist, southern Baptist, and we do not have a creed of any kind other than what the scripture teaches. The only time that the word predestined would ever come up in teaching would maybe be in salvation uses as such, a sinner who comes to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and laid down His life to pay the sin debt of all who come to faith in Him will be saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption. This could be expanded upon but on these grounds. Like using John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Those who rejected Him (the unbelieving Jewish people, were predestined to eternal judgment because all who do not believe in Him are condemned by their own actions of unbelief, and those like in v12 are born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and pass from death into life because that is what the scripture declare. We have eternal security in Christ Jesus, thus we share in the predestined promises of our Lord such as in Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. The reason we know verses 28-30 to have been predestined before the foundation of the world that all who believe in Him have peace in our hearts knowing that what the Lord predestined to come to pass will come to pass just as He said, therefore like in those He called, are justified, and glorified which are in the past tense from His perspective and will indeed take place in the future. I have never heard as far as I remember the word predestined used in any other manner and this is my belief in the manner which I teach the word. I have a very close friend of over 45 years who is fully Calvinist but we have determined to let the other fine out who is right on this word, if it ever comes up when we are in glory. Every tub sets on its own bottom.

 

[RickReads]

predestined [prēˈdestind] ADJECTIVE(of an outcome or course of events) determined in advance by divine will or fate:

1. "our predestined end"
   synonyms:
   preordained · ordained · foreordained · destined · predetermined · fated · predestinated

I have never been in any church group other than Baptist, southern Baptist, and we do not have a creed of any kind other than what the scripture teaches. The only time that the word predestined would ever come up in teaching would maybe be in salvation uses as such, a sinner who comes to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and laid down His life to pay the sin debt of all who come to faith in Him will be saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption. This could be expanded upon but on these grounds. Like using John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Those who rejected Him (the unbelieving Jewish people, were predestined to eternal judgment because all who do not believe in Him are condemned by their own actions of unbelief, and those like in v12 are born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and pass from death into life because that is what the scripture declare. We have eternal security in Christ Jesus, thus we share in the predestined promises of our Lord such as in Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. The reason we know verses 28-30 to have been predestined before the foundation of the world that all who believe in Him have peace in our hearts knowing that what the Lord predestined to come to pass will come to pass just as He said, therefore like in those He called, are justified, and glorified which are in the past tense from His perspective and will indeed take place in the future. I have never heard as far as I remember the word predestined used in any other manner and this is my belief in the manner which I teach the word. I have a very close friend of over 45 years who is fully Calvinist but we have determined to let the other fine out who is right on this word, if it ever comes up when we are in glory. Every tub sets on its own bottom.

Calvinism won't save anyone but a Calvinist can get saved. Remember your friend in your prayers.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Why can't it be a simple choice without it being something predestined?

Because God is in control, and, at the very least, the beginning of all fact. You seem to misapprehend what simple choice really is —a result, not just a cause.

Paul tells believers to pray for all men for a few reasons in 1 Timothy 2:1-6. Two of those reasons include that (a) God desires all men be saved and (b) that Christ gave himself a ransom for all. That is not congruent with a God who predestines some to eternal life and the rest to eternal flame.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

I expect you've been in these discussions long enough to have heard that "all" doesn't always mean "absolutely everyone who ever lived." Beyond that, it can be true that God finds no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but to claim therefore, that free will trumps God's plans, is simply illogical.

 

[RickReads]

Because God is in control, and, at the very least, the beginning of all fact. You seem to misapprehend what simple choice really is —a result, not just a cause.



I expect you've been in these discussions long enough to have heard that "all" doesn't always mean "absolutely everyone who ever lived." Beyond that, it can be true that God finds no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but to claim therefore, that free will trumps God's plans, is simply illogical.

The first time a universalist forced me to say all doesn't always mean all I had issue with believing that.

 

[John Mullally]

Because God is in control, and, at the very least, the beginning of all fact. You seem to misapprehend what simple choice really is —a result, not just a cause.

Sorry, I view myself as a grateful co-heir with Jesus (Romans 8:17), not a pawn in a tightly controlled hardware or software simulation.

I expect you've been in these discussions long enough to have heard that "all" doesn't always mean "absolutely everyone who ever lived."

It means "all without exception" here. To assert that Paul was referring to "all without distinction" makes no sense - as Paul was not contrasting different kinds of people.

To assert that Paul was strictly referring to the elect in verse 4 & 6 (which supports Calvinist doctrine) also makes no sense. If that is what Paul meant he would phrased 1 Timothy 2:1-6 completely differently - he would have said something like "we need to pray for all men because we don't know who God will choose to save".

Beyond that, it can be true that God finds no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but to claim therefore, that free will trumps God's plans, is simply illogical.

Yes, God finds no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But, I never mentioned anything like man's "free will trumps God's plans" - so no lecture on logic please.

God does not orchestrate evil, nor tempt anyone. Have you ever considered the possibility that God's plans accommodate man's "free will"? Sometimes man's evil "free will" decisions, termed sin, result in judgement. As believers we can repent and ask for forgiveness based upon the blood of Jesus. Also, per the book of Job, we live in a fallen world - so sometimes bad stuff happens anyways - in the end, things turned out well for Job - so don't lose heart.

 

[John Mullally]

That's an excellent proof verse. I`ve been looking for one like that recently.

Glad to help. These doctrinal category of forums will stretch you.