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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Clare73

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I think that reconciling God choosing us, which is true, and we choosing Him which is also true, is next to impossible with our finite minds.
It's as easy as ABC in the Scriptures.

God chose us (Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).
God worked in our disposition to give us to prefer him (John 6:65; John 6:64; Romans 8:29-30; Philippians 2:13).

Ergo, we chose God.
It is a mystery. In our minds they are contradictory,
Keeping in mind that in the NT, "mystery" does not mean something obscure that cannot be understood, but simply something formerly hidden and now revealed, as in the death of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:1), or God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:9), or the inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Ephesians 3:3-6), etc.

No actual mystery nor contradiction in Scripture in God choosing us and our choosing God.
 
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Hillsage

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o_O:cool::cool:
No. Adam was created perfect, as was the rest of creation. God looked at His creation and saw that it was "very, very, good." That was perfection in God's view. Therefore Adam had a perfect human nature, being in the image of God. He lost that perfect nature at the Fall, and was no longer in the perfect image of God.
Where does it say "very very good." I can't find a verse saying 'that'. I do know of a verse that disagrees with "very good" though. And it's only 18 verses later, that 'it' suddenly isn't true??? :scratch:

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Jesus had a perfect human nature because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. That is why He is called the Second Adam. And He also had His Divine nature, because He never gave that up, as the Word-Faith teachers claim. He humbled himself as a servant, but He never ceased from being God. So He had two natures in Him. He was and still is, the perfect God-man. His humanity enabled Him to be the perfect sacrifice for sin without spot and blemish, and His Divinity enabled Him to bear the eternal wrath of God for the three hours He suffered on the Cross until the full debt for sin was paid. Only God could bear the full weight of the wrath of God toward every sinner in the world from Adam to the coming of Christ in just three hours. If Jesus was just human, He would have been instantly vaporised.
Correcting biblically, everything in this paragraph that I disagree with....would just take too long. :rolleyes: And, as I recall you're about my age, and we 'older' believers are pretty tough to change because we're so 'solid' in our beliefs. Only problem is, one of us is rock solid and the other is cement solid.....all mixed up, and hard to change. ^_^ I can wait until He decides who is which though. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Mark Quayle

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I think that reconciling God choosing us, which is true, and we choosing Him which is also true, is next to impossible with our finite minds. It is a mystery. In our minds they are contradictory, and theologians go from one extreme to the other because they think they have to believe that one is true and the other is not. That is why we have extreme Calvinism and extreme Arminianism. Pelagius tried to work it out and utter failed going into heresy with his thinking. Even though Calvin was and is one of the best systematic theologians, I don't think he was able to satisfactorily work it out, and he probably knew it and did the best he could. But Calvin is not God, and neither are the rest of us. We can see this given the thousands of threads and posts arguing about predestination and free choice since Christian Forums began many years ago.
I disagree. In our minds, they need not be contradictory. In fact, we are built for this very thing, to [eventually] see things from God's point of view —to be one with him. It may be hard to live this way consistently, but we do what we do because he is doing it. God in us.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I have always maintained that the difference between time and eternity is that our time is measured by the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth around the sun. But if we got into a starship and went out into the galaxy away from the solar system, and let's say all our chronometers broke down and we could no longer measure the time, we would be left with just going from one event to another. We wouldn't stop existing and doing things, but we would no longer be conscious of minutes, hours or days, because we would have no way of measuring them. God lives in eternity where there is no measurement of time. He doesn't need it because eternity will never end, so He doesn't have to worry that He doesn't have enough time to do what He plans to do. This is why 1000 years is just a minute to God because He doesn't possess a clock! But He still is aware of the past, and He goes from one event to another as He works out HIs plans and purposes for the future. I believe that He knows the future because the Bible says He is omniscient and has foreknowledge. How that is possible, we don't know, because He is God and we ain't.
So, you make him subject to principle from outside himself. Well, that is not God.
 
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Clare73

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The mystery is that we live according to our free personal decision making, but when we look back and review the past, we see evidence of God's wonderful plans being worked out in our lives. It is as if He planned our way for us, and yet we chose it for ourselves. I don't think we will ever be able to work that out fully.
You find the following a "mystery" we cannot work out (understand)?

God works in the disposition (which no man can do), which governs the will, giving one to prefer his will, where one then "freely chooses voluntarily, without external force or constraint, that which one prefers, likes," which is the Biblical meaning of "free will."

How could it be any more simple?
 
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QvQ

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I believe the purpose of man is to know, love and serve God.
Calvin wrote, what does it mean to "know God?"
“Those, therefore, who, in considering this question, propose to inquire what the essence of God is, only delude us with frigid speculations—it being much more our interest to know what kind of being God is, and what things are agreeable to his nature.”
 
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Clare73

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There is a difference between being mature in the faith and having a superduper spirituality that causes someone to glow in the dark. We grow in grace and in the knowledge of God. We don't have a "spirituality" of our own. That is New Age occult. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives us the mind of Christ. So there is no such thing as "spiritual maturity" in a Christian believer. It is more in a person involved in New Age mysticism.
How does this relate to your point:
"John said that the Anointing which we have received teaches us all things"?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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You find the following a "mystery" we cannot work out (understand)?

God works in the disposition (which no man can do), which governs the will, giving one to prefer his will, where one then "freely chooses voluntarily, without external force or constraint, that which one prefers, likes," which is the Biblical meaning of "free will."

How could it be any more simple?

Is it really the Biblical meaning of free will? Based upon what, one scripture in Romans 9? Which the following Early Church Father linked to two nations, not the individual salvation of man.

Let's look at a view of Romans 9 by Irenaeus.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)
Book IV. (Cont.)
Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.

2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom_9:13; Mal_1:2)​

Of Romans 9 Irenaeus said “The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character “. What is that symbolic character? Irenaeus links them to a prediction of two nations. Jacob represents the fact that the gentiles will be joint heirs of faith, receiving the birthright that was given initially to his brother Esau. Esau represents the Jews, who had the birthright, but it was given up to Jacob (The church, including Gentiles).

The term “but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man: Romans 9:10 Irenaeus, links to the fact that both Jew and Gentile have the same Father God.

He does not say that this is a prediction of the salvation of Jacob, and the damnation of Esau. I believe rather the story is a picture of the church given the blessing, and the Jews who lost it.

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We also see Justin Martyr believed the same.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 1-25
Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.

But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man’s sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith.


Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.
 
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That's quite the leap. Where did I deny the virgin birth? This is the problem with the "fallen nature" stuff that comes from Augustine not the Bible, it leads either to a docetic view where Jesus was not actually human or a psuedo-nestorianism where Jesus humanity is nothing but a tool of the divine.
Did I respond to the wrong post? I'm sure I saw the question that seemed a doubt of the virgin birth. Must have been a senior moment on my part! :)
 
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Clare73

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I had a fairly wild thought last night about the all-knowingness of God. In the following passage from Irenaeus, we see that God knows all things.
God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”​
Yet from the bible the Son, does not.
Mar_13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.​
This thought to me is quite revolutionary. Because it allows for an explanation of the foreknowledge of God, yet restricted knowledge at the same time.
However, the "restricted" knowledge of the earthly Son of God has nothing to do with the divine foreknowledge of God the Father.
Jesus who is no less God, even God of the OT. As we see here:
Luk_13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
We see in the bible that there are times when God did not know all, but which part of the Godhead is speaking, is it Jesus?
Jesus' statement above does not show a lack of knowledge.
Gen_6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.​
And
Gen 18:20-21 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."​
We see in the OT often times the Angel of the LORD (God’s messenger), being called God.
Jdg_13:22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!"​
Is the messenger Jesus? Jesus is no less the creator, no less God. But in knowledge, He is possibly, to a degree, limited.
Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
So according to all the passages from the Church Fathers, man has genuine free will, is not cohered or fated by God. We can be sure God is not selecting some for life and other for damnation, that is man’s choosing. But the Father may still have perfect foreknowledge, a knowledge He shares from time to time with man.
God elects and effectively chooses,
man has free will to choose what he prefers, and
man does choose his destiny
are all revealed Biblical facts in perfect harmony with one another.
 
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o_O:cool::cool:
Where does it say "very very good." I can't find a verse saying 'that'. I do know of a verse that disagrees with "very good" though. And it's only 18 verses later, that 'it' suddenly isn't true??? :scratch:

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.


Correcting biblically, everything in this paragraph that I disagree with....would just take too long. :rolleyes: And, as I recall you're about my age, and we 'older' believers are pretty tough to change because we're so 'solid' in our beliefs. Only problem is, one of us is rock solid and the other is cement solid.....all mixed up, and hard to change. ^_^ I can wait until He decides who is which though. :oldthumbsup:
"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day" (Genesis 1:31).

You are comparing apples with oranges. It is a twist of Scripture to say that part of God's creation wasn't good. All God was doing was commenting on Adam not having a suitable companion in life. Nothing to do with the creation in general.
 
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I disagree. In our minds, they need not be contradictory. In fact, we are built for this very thing, to [eventually] see things from God's point of view —to be one with him. It may be hard to live this way consistently, but we do what we do because he is doing it. God in us.
We accept God choosing us and we freely choosing God by faith and not trying to work it out with our finite minds.
 
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So, you make him subject to principle from outside himself. Well, that is not God.
The God of the Bible moves from one event to another. It is a loony tunes god who lives in the ever-present like someone in a static photograph.
 
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You find the following a "mystery" we cannot work out (understand)?

God works in the disposition (which no man can do), which governs the will, giving one to prefer his will, where one then "freely chooses voluntarily, without external force or constraint, that which one prefers, likes," which is the Biblical meaning of "free will."

How could it be any more simple?
We reconcile God choosing us from the foundation of the world, and we choosing to receive Christ, which is an apparent contradiction, by faith, because the Scriptures support both. We believe the Scriptures that tell us that God chose us and foreordained us for salvation, and we also believe the Scriptures that tell us we can freely choose to come to Christ and not be cast out. This is how faith in God's Word works.
 
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Clare73

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Is it really the Biblical meaning of free will? Based upon what, one scripture in Romans 9?
First of all, how many times must God say it in his word before it is true?

To what Scripture are you referring, and about what?
Which the following Early Church Father linked to two nations, not the individual salvation of man.
Romans 9 is not about the salvation of Ishmael, Esau, Isaac or Jacob.
It's about God's purpose in electing Isaac and Jacob to be the seed of Abraham which inherited the promise.

And THEN. . .it is about the salvation of Israel, who did not attain righteousness (salvation), and why the Gentiles did,
because Israel pursued it by works of the law and stumbled over the stumbling stone, Jesus Christ, while the Gentiles pursued it by faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 9:30-33).
Let's look at a view of Romans 9 by Irenaeus.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)
Book IV. (Cont.)
Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.

2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom_9:13; Mal_1:2)​

Of Romans 9 Irenaeus said “The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character “. What is that symbolic character? Irenaeus links them to a prediction of two nations. Jacob represents the fact that the gentiles will be joint heirs of faith, receiving the birthright that was given initially to his brother Esau. Esau represents the Jews, who had the birthright, but it was given up to Jacob (The church, including Gentiles).

The term “but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man: Romans 9:10 Irenaeus, links to the fact that both Jew and Gentile have the same Father God.

He does not say that this is a prediction of the salvation of Jacob, and the damnation of Esau. I believe rather the story is a picture of the church given the blessing, and the Jews who lost it.

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We also see Justin Martyr believed the same.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 1-25
Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.

But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man’s sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith.


Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.
 
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How does this relate to your point:
"John said that the Anointing which we have received teaches us all things"?
That is the Holy Spirit resident in us. That's why the Scripture says, "Who can know the mind of the Spirit except the Spirit Himself?" The Anointing that John is talking about is not some kind of extra spirituality in ourselves, but it is the Holy Spirit. This is in keeping with Jesus saying that the Helper, when He comes, He will lead us into all truth.
 
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Clare73

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We reconcile God choosing us from the foundation of the world, and we choosing to receive Christ, which is an apparent contradiction, by faith, because the Scriptures support both. We believe the Scriptures that tell us that God chose us and foreordained us for salvation, and we also believe the Scriptures that tell us we can freely choose to come to Christ and not be cast out. This is how faith in God's Word works.
That it is true is the object of faith.

That it is simple and comprehensible is a matter of knowledge.
 
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Clare73

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That is the Holy Spirit resident in us. That's why the Scripture says, "Who can know the mind of the Spirit except the Spirit Himself?" The Anointing that John is talking about is not some kind of extra spirituality in ourselves, but it is the Holy Spirit. This is in keeping with Jesus saying that the Helper, when He comes, He will lead us into all truth.
The anointing that teaches all things is of the apostles who were to be the foundation of the church and the penmen of the word of God.
 
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misput

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We usually think of someone mature "sinning" but have you ever seen a sweet little toddler stand there and lie? I as a parent hear a crash in the next room, I run in and there is something broken on the floor. I asked my sweet little innocent toddler, "What happened, did you do this?" And that sweet little toddler stands there shaking his head saying "I didn't do it."
The sweet little toddler is just learning about sin but has no clue what it is all about yet. He is still innocent.
 
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