What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Let’s find out …

The post that started it all:


My response:

• At this point, anyone that truly disagrees with me is free to show from scripture that I am wrong and “God desires all to be saved enough to actually save everyone.”
• BONUS POINTS if you can show how God saving everyone is not the heretical teaching called UNIVERSALISM.

You responded by rejecting my limitation (rejecting Universal Salvation) …

• How can anyone read the opening of “Sure He does” as anything but a disagreement with my rejection of Universalism (and, therefore, an embrace of universal salvation)?
• You made clear your disdain for the biblical Doctrines of Grace that celibate God’s Sovereign Love by presenting a strawman version to emphatically reject for your golden idol of all love and no justice or wrath.

• Your exact words in response to the claim that God does not save everyone were “Sure He does …”. That read as pretty clear to me.

The problem we have with your statement "… but not enough to actually save everyone." is:

You are assuming if God loved all people He would necessarily save all people. Which is something we don't hold as true. You also by your statement claim we believe if only God loved all people more all would be saved. We believe nothing even close to that, and you also know this.

 

[zoidar]

It was for a pattern (Romans 5:14) for the imputation of the righteousness of Christ (Romans 4:1-11).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying God imputed Adam's sin to us so God could impute Christ's righteousness to us? Was that the whole purpose?

 

[Clare73]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying God imputed Adam's sin to us so God could impute Christ's righteousness to us? Was that the whole purpose?

I'm saying what the NT says: the purpose was to foreshadow the second Adam (Romans 5:14).

 

[Fervent]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying God imputed Adam's sin to us so God could impute Christ's righteousness to us? Was that the whole purpose?

Don't you know God loves 3-card monte?

 

[QvQ]

And that means?

The arguments so far are for choices based on free will, what a person likes, desires, prefers or enforced, if Adam did it for love of Eve or constrained, in Adams' case by obedience to God.

The real argument is whose will was it, after all? Adam seems to have free will but Adam did not have will power. Any alcoholic can explain that to you. What makes AA so successful is the Higher Power.
It is not just a prayer, "Thy will be done" it is an actual fact in each and every case.

 

[zoidar]

I'm saying what the NT says: the purpose was to foreshadow the second Adam (Romans 5:14).

Maybe I should withhold to comment, but Romans 5:14 doesn't say "purpose". It just says he was the "pattern".

 

[Clare73]

Maybe I should withhold to comment, but Romans 5:14 doesn't say "purpose". It just says he was the "pattern".

It says pattern of the one to come (Christ).

It was a foreshadow (revelation) of Christ.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Welcome to John Owen. . .but then there is the Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

Yes! From the title I had hoped to find a treatise on something I am very curious about, that I very much want to understand, but it seems to be one of the more hidden things... I was disappointed in that, but not disappointed in what he did talk about. My goodness! the depth of the thinking, thoughts I've never heard from anyone else nearly as well put, if dealt with at all.

He never did get to what I wanted to know about, but what he did say made me even more curious about the Death of Death, not just how it happened but what it means, or how it applies to so many statements in Scripture —everything from Death and Hell thrown into the lake of fire and the 'second death', to all things being restored to God.

 

[QvQ]

"Mortification of Sin" John Owen
Entanglement of sin, I recognize that.
Temptation is often portrayed as a forking road with flashing signs, choose Sin<---> Virtue with a definite direction in time.
Usually sin happens in the midst of a web of seemingly ordinary happenings. It is only when the person is either out, by the Grace of God or caught fast that the trap is realized. The person being so caught up in the middle where sin is happening and multiplying is in increasing darkness. The only clue sometimes is the grace to feel ashamed and remember God. One call, then the light of the Lord in darkness.
This is what I am talking about the book. Maybe I am reading it wrong but whatever, my interpretation, for what it is worth

 

[zoidar]

Only one answer. . .Eve was deceived, and Adam chose not to lose her.

He preferred the creature over the Creator.

It's not like I disagree, but the question was more of a "how" than a "why".

Adam didn't have a fallen nature, even so he could choose evil, to transgress, give up eternal life for Eve. We agree they didn't have a fallen nature before transgression, so they must have gotten the fallen nature after the transgression. But you said that isn't the case. This is where I don't understand how you could say that neither the transgression resulted in the sinful nature, nor that the sinful nature resulted in the transgression.

Since you didn't answer this I got irritated and was provocative. I'm sorry for that!

If you don't want to get into the philosophy/logical arguments, then no problem. But would be nice to know how you reason.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ok... wait a second! Did the angels transgress which gave them a sinful nature or did they have a sinful nature and therefore transgressed?

I'm not talking about their first transgression, nor about Adam's. Your conjecture was whether they could have changed their mind and returned to God, if they had no sin nature.
zoidar said: ↑
If they didn't have an evil nature, they could stop "transgressing" and flip side.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"Mortification of Sin" John Owen
Entanglement of sin, I recognize that.
Temptation is often portrayed as a forking road with flashing signs, choose Sin<---> Virtue with a definite direction in time.
Usually sin happens in the midst of a web of seemingly ordinary happenings. It is only when the person is either out, by the Grace of God or caught fast that the trap is realized. The person being so caught up in the middle where sin is happening and multiplying is in increasing darkness. The only clue sometimes is the grace to feel ashamed and remember God. One call, then the light of the Lord in darkness.
This is what I am talking about the book. Maybe I am reading it wrong but whatever, my interpretation, for what it is worth

Lol, no worries, bro. Keep reading. I had to reread it several times.

 

[QvQ]

I was almost through with it and went back, started over. Great Book

 

[Mark Quayle]

The question I'm raising is why would it be necessary to impute Adam's sin at all to us if we already had a sinful nature? We would sin plenty on our own anyway.

Besides that it provided a pattern for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, as @Clare73 said, is the fact that it proclaims us guilty in spite of ANY protests of innocence. We are at God's mercy, deserving only judgement, no excuse anyone can believe in will cut it. I think it also provides relevance to several other doctrines that I don't understand yet to my satisfaction, (for example, the Death of Death in the Death of Christ, (a book by John Owen) and related principles). And not that this is necessarily a redundancy as such, but God sometimes punctuates things he teaches or does, by redundancy, in this case perhaps, 'so that our sin will be seen to be exceedingly sinful'.

Yes and no! If we think of righteousness like living a perfect sinless life, then no! But if you think righteousness is living in a relationship with God through Jesus, then yes! We fall in sin, but then we turn to Jesus forgiveness. So a righteous Christian, a saint if you will, lives a righteous life, meaningly living for, with and following Jesus in all his own imperfection. When he fails he confesses, and starts over. What he doesn't do is allowing sin run his life, and if he does, he needs to repent.

Sounds like you are describing IMPUTED righteousness, at first there: "righteousness is living in a relationship with God through Jesus". The imputed righteousness of Christ is a huge argument against those who would claim that we lose our salvation every time we sin, and that if we sin without repenting before we die, we go to Hell. Their logic can't touch that! So it is also with the imputed sin. No argument can touch it.

 

[John Mullally]

He said I was wrong to claim that God did not love everyone enough to save everyone. If God did not save everyone, then it was either because God “could not” (which violates the definition of God - omnipotent) or because God willed/chose not to save everyone (supporting the Sovereignty of God).

So …

1. Did God try to save everyone and fail?
2. Did God try to save everyone and succeed?
3. Did God succeed in saving all that God tried to save?

You tell me.

1 Timothy 2:4 explicitly states that God desires all men to be saved. God will not do for us what He commands us to do - He will not make us believe and repent. Provision has been made - per 1 Timothy 2:6 and Titus 2:11. God is not withholding -believe the Gospel. Receive by repentance (Acts 2:38-39).

 

[John Mullally]

The claim, "Typically calvinists believe God scripts man’s every action", is a bit misleading. Calvinists may believe God CAUSES every detail of all things, to include man's every action, but to say "scripts man's every action" brings concepts to mind that are not quite true. It promotes a concept of God having written a detailed outline full of code that man, idiot-like, must follow unwittingly. There is truth to that, but it ignores the fullness of God's causation.

Scripts means the same thing as causes. Neither cause nor script state method.

 

[misput]

It says pattern of the one to come (Christ).

God imputed sin, guilt and condemnation to everyone so there would be a pattern between Adam and Christ? This means, everyone/unborn/infants/children,etc who die before they are born again are condemned to hell? That is some great theology, I am impressed. Teach me more, like what the two trees and the snake in Genesis represent : )

 

[setst777]

What I have learned in my many conversations with others regarding Christian doctrine is that there are those who put so much faith in a particular doctrine that they will, in pride, deliberately refuse to acknowledge God’s Word wherever it might disagree with that doctrine they put so much faith in.

setst777 said: ↑
We are declared righteous, with remission of sin (cleansed from all sin) as we believe, and remain in the faith evidenced by walking in the Spirit, which is walking in the light, or following Lord Jesus.

Only the born again are declared righteous, and the born again always remain in the faith (John 6:39). There are no still-births by the Holy Spirit.

According to the very next verse (John 6:40) who are the ones whom God gives to the Son?

Answer: The father gives to the Son (vs 39) those who believe in the Son (vs 40).

Where in “John 6:39” is anything taught about “justification,” the “Spirit,” or how to be “born again”?

I can show you the Scriptures that that teach to us that we are declared righteous (justified: 1344. dikaioó) by faith, just as Abraham was justified by faith (Romans 4:2-5).

Abraham believed God, and so was justified by God, and this was before New Covenant Promise of the Spirit was ever given in the NT (John 6:37-39; Acts 1:4).

Here are those Scriptures that teach we are justified by faith, just as Abraham was:

Acts 13:38-39; Romans 3:24-30; Romans 4:2-5; Romans 5:1-2; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 3:24; Philippians 3:9.

Now that I have shown you my Scriptures as evidence of justification by faith, can you show me any Scriptures that state we are declared righteous (justified) by being born again?

Almost. . .
True faith in God is to believe in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice

The Blood is necessary, and those that believe in Christ do believe the Gospel that states that the shed blood of Christ was payment for our sins.

However, that same Gospel Faith teaches us that we believe in Lord Jesus so we may receive that redemption that Christ paid for. By faith in Christ, who paid for our sins, we have eternal life (John 3:16) because of the Gospel.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

“Eternal Life,” by the rebirth of the Spirit indwelling us (John 3:3-6), is given only by faith (John 3:16).

I quote you (bolding and highlighting is mine):

… the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us.

We receive that Eternal Life (rebirth of the indwelling Spirit) by faith because of the Gospel (John 3:16).

The true believer has faith that the Blood of Christ cleanses him from all sin as he walks in the light by faith (1 John 1:7).

We have faith in the Gospel Message that teaches us that when we put our faith in Lord Jesus, we are justified and gain access to God’s Saving Grace (Romans 5:1-2).

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

For the Promise of God is by faith in Lord Jesus.

Galatians 3:22 (NIV) 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

The Promise is by Faith.

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

When we believe in the Gospel Message, then we understand that a Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus includes repentance, and then following Lord Jesus by that faith.

Acts 20:20-21 (WEB) I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

Therefore, when we believe in Lord Jesus, we become His disciples, following Him (Matthew 28:19-20).

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

When we put our faith in Lord Jesus, after learning the Gospel, we become disciples in Lord Jesus or Christians.

Acts 11:26 (WEB) 26 The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Therefore, a true believer will follow Christ Jesus in obedience to Him.

Romans 1:5 (NIV) Through Him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

When the believer follows Lord Jesus he is no longer walking in darkness, but has been turned from darkness to the light of life – this is regeneration, and is by faith demonstrated by following Him.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

When, after hearing the Gospel, we believe in Lord Jesus in this way, then we pass from death to life, which again is regeneration, only by faith.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

When we put our faith in Lord Jesus, as the Gospel instructs us, we know from the Gospel that we can trust that we are justified, that we access God’s saving grace, and that Lord Jesus’ blood cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:7 (WEB) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ which paid for one's sin on the cross (Romans 5:18), as one was declared guilty by the imputed sin/guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18), which was the pattern (Romans 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Romans 4:1-11)--just as by faith righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3), and then by the Holy Spirit to walk in obedience which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Romans 6:16-19). For without holiness, no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Yes, that is right.

You left out the mind of the Spirit in Romans 3:25 -- "faith in his blood."

No, I did not leave it out. The very first Passage in the post you quoted from me, and of which you replied to, was “1 John 1:6-7.”

 

[setst777]

You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).

None of the Passage you listed teach about the Spirit indwelling a person, or teach when the Spirit indwells a person. Therefore, you are misapplying these Scriptures to mean we receive the Spirit so we can believe, when they teach nothing about the Spirit at all.

I agree with you that “the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit.”

I agree with you that that “Eternal life is the Holy Spirit living in us.”

God gives this eternal life (rebirth) by faith in Lord Jesus just as Lord Jesus taught to Nicodemus. That is the Gospel.

John 3:15-16 (WEB)
15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life (rebirth: John 3:3-8).
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life (rebirth: John 3:3-8).

The NT Scriptures repeatedly teach us that, by believing, is when the Spirit indwells us to give the believer Spiritual Life – the rebirth. This Promise is only for the New Covenant. The Spirit was not yet sent in the Old Covenant, only in the New Covenant.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! (continuous drinking)
38 He who believes (continuous believing) in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us.

If the Scriptures are the truth, then you are in error.

The Spirit will only indwell those who first believe to give them eternal life (rebirth).

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) Bolding mine… 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 4:4-6 (WEB) 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his children, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

We are His sons and daughters (children) of God through faith:

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

There is no obedience apart from rebirth in the Holy Spirit.

The faith of the Gospel, by which the Spirit indwells us, is a faith onto obedience to Lord Jesus. We must first commit to obey Lord Jesus by faith before we can receive the Holy Spirit to give us life.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit (unregenerate) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." And that includes believing/faith.

That is a mistranslation. The Passage should read as follows:

1 Corinthians 2:14 (Young’s Literal Translation)
14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Firstly, “1 Corinthians 2:14” does not teach us when the Spirit indwells us.

Secondly, the Gospel is meant for everyone to hear, because the Gospel with the Spirit convicts and draws people to Christ before the Spirit ever indwells anyone.

Thirdly, the Spirit was always active in the world to draw people to God, but the Spiritual indwelling (outpouring of the Spirit) did not occur until the New Covenant Promise of the Spirit was established, and is only by faith in Lord Jesus (John 7:37-39).

The drawing is for the whole world, but many will refuse the drawing of God.

John 12:32 (WEB) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Many do refuse the drawing of the Word and Spirit.

Acts 7:51-52 (WEB)
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit!

Matthew 22:3 (WEB)
3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they refused to come.

John 3:18 (WEB) 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (WEB)
10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Romans 10:21 (WEB) 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

I quoted you Scriptures that teach us when the Spirit indwells us, which is by faith demonstrated in obedience to Lord Jesus.

Now, regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14...

The Greek word for “natural” is “psychikos.”

According to the “Strong’s Concordance,” psychikos is defined in this way:

Strong’s 5591 psyxikós (an adjective, derived from 5590 /psyxḗ, "soul, natural identity") – properly, soulish, i.e. what is natural, as it relates to physical (tangible) life alone (i.e. apart from God's inworking of faith).

Strong’s 5591 /psyxikós ("natural") typically describes the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven." 5591 (psyxikós) then sometimes stands in contrast to 4152 /pneumatikós ("spiritual") – the higher, spiritual aspect of humanity that develops through faith (4102 /pístis).

What this means is, that a man who is controlled by his sensual or carnal nature will not understand the spiritual things of God. Not every unbeliever, or even a believer, is controlled by his sensual nature, and so such people are living according to the Spirit. For the unbeliever, they are living by the drawing of the Spirit by faith in God (Hebrews 11) in the Old Covenant, and the believer in Christ lives by the Spirit indwelling him in the New Covenant.

Even unbelievers can live a life doing what is righteous by their own conscience, before ever being indwelt by the Spirit. Not every unbeliever is as bad as they could be, otherwise there would be anarchy on earth.

Romans 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 For it isn’t the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified 14 for when Gentiles who don’t have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them

For instance, all the OT saints (Hebrews 11) lived by faith in God before the Promised Spirit was ever given, before Lord Jesus had died for sins. The Promised Spirit was only poured out on believers in the NT after Lord Jesus was glorified.

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The Promise of the Spirit is only given to believers in Lord Jesus in the New Covenant. The promise is for the New Covenant in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Before Lord Jesus was glorified, and before the Spirit was poured out on believers, many people lived righteously according to the Spirit (drawing of the Spirit), even before believing in Lord Jesus. We see this fact, not only in the OT, but also the NT, before Lord Jesus was glorified.

Mary (Mother of Jesus), Mary Magdalene, the Disciples of Lord Jesus, and all those who feared God (The God Fearers in Acts), lived in a higher aspect of their humanity, having faith in God, before ever coming to Faith in Lord Jesus and receiving the Spirit

Romans 8:7-8 - "the sinful (unregenerate) mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature (unregenerate) cannot please God."

You added the word “unregenerate.” Those not indwelt by the Spirit, who believe in God can live spiritual lives by faith, although not regenerated by the indwelling Spirit (Hebrews 11).

Every man who allows himself to be controlled by the sinful nature is not living according to the Spirit.

The Spirit who indwells the believer in Lord Jesus (Acts 5:32) gives the believer Life (Eternal Life), but only as the believer puts to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit living in him. A true Christian is obligated to walk in the Spirit in this way to receive Life in the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13 (WEB) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not be weary in doing good, for WE will reap in due season, if WE do not give up.

The promise and guarantee are to the born again, who are the only ones who can believe, according to John 3:3-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8.

Firstly, none of the Passages you listed teach us when the Spirit indwells us.

I quoted you Scriptures that teach us when the Spirit indwells us, which is by faith demonstrated in obedience to Lord Jesus.

The Promise of the Spirit is given only to those who first believe demonstrated in obedience, according to the Scriptures.

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

I already addressed “2 Corinthians 2:14” and “Romans 8:7-8.”

Regarding “John 3:3-8.” You had already proven that the eternal life of the indwelling Spirit (rebirth) is given by faith. I quote you (bolding is mine).

You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us.

As Lord Jesus explained to Nicodemus, the Eternal Life (Rebirth) of the indwelling Spirit is given to whoever will believe.

John 3:15-16 (WEB) 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Whoever believes has eternal life (rebirth), and has passed out of death onto life.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

Passing from death to life is regeneration or rebirth. When we believe in him we pass out of death and into life and from darkness into light - only by faith.

 

[zoidar]

I'm not talking about their first transgression, nor about Adam's. Your conjecture was whether they could have changed their mind and returned to God, if they had no sin nature.
zoidar said: ↑
If they didn't have an evil nature, they could stop "transgressing" and flip side.

I see! But you said that the one doesn't happen without the other. We sin because we have a sinful nature, that's true. But how is the other true, that we have a sinful nature because we sin?