What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

Who does?

You have to ask?

It's very hard for you to admit when your theology brings a problem. Why is that?

 

[Clare73]

We are declared righteous, with remission of sin (cleansed from all sin) as we believe, and remain in the faith evidenced by walking in the Spirit, which is walking in the light, or following Lord Jesus.

Only the born again are declared righteous, and the born again always remain in the faith (John 6:39). There are no still-births by the Holy Spirit.

All the terms represent the mind of the Spirit in salvation - the New Life by which we are in Christ.
1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if WE (believers) walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
John 8:12 (WEB) “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not be weary in doing good, for WE will reap in due season, IF WE do not give up.
Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.13 For IF YOU live according to the flesh, you will die; but IF by the Spirit YOU put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
1 Timothy 6:18-21 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.
John 10:27-28
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them Eternal Life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
Hebrews 5:9 (WEB) Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of Eternal Salvation
Matthew 10:38 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
IF you are not a disciple of Lord Jesus, you are not a Christian, and you do not belong to Christ. Non-Christians not saved.
Acts 11:26 The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Who are the disciples (Christians) who belong to Christ?
Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit

So, what does faith mean by which God saves us? That is the question. To have faith in God is to love God. IF you love God, then you will follow Lord Jesus.
In the New Testament Gospel, a true faith in God is to believe in (to listen to and follow) His Son.

Almost. . .

True faith in God is to believe in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ which paid for one's sin on the cross (Romans 5:18), as one was declared guilty by the imputed sin/guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18), which was the pattern (Romans 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Romans 4:1-11)--just as by faith righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3), and then by the Holy Spirit to walk in obedience which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Romans 6:16-19). For without holiness, no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Faith includes repentance, which is demonstrated by a complete change of mind and purpose for living.
Acts 26:19-20 (ESV) 19 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.
Romans 1:5 (NIV) 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.
The true believer denies the old life of selfish ambitions, and now commits to become a slave of God, holy (being separate or sanctified) onto God for the purpose of obeying Him, living a righteous life of Love.

These are the ones who are in The Faith, and receive remission of sins. This is what Paul taught throughout all his letters. For instance, see: Romans 6; Romans 13:11-14; Romans 12:1-2; 1 Corinthians 9:22-27; 1 Corinthians 10:1-12; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 5:13-25; Galatians 6:7-9; Ephesians 5:1-20; Philippians 2:14-16; Philippians 3:7-12; Colossians 3:1-17; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 5:11; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:6; Hebrews 3:12-15; Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 12:14-17
and so many more Passages of instruction all through Paul’s letters.

You left out the mind of the Spirit in Romans 3:25 -- "faith in his blood."

 

[Clare73]

Yes, it is not easy reading, to understand what he is saying, often.

Welcome to John Owen. . .but then there is the Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

 

[Clare73]

The book reminded me that a while ago, I decided that instead of focusing on sin, I would focus closely on the virtues, which I listed as faith love hope charity chastity humility and patience.
To sin was the opposite, such as pride instead of humility.
(if I had any humility, I would be proud of it, so had a bit of trouble with that one

Keeping in mind humility is truth. . .it is not humility for the world's fastest runner to state he is really not that good a runner, nor for the one with humility to pretend he does not have it. Humility does not require denial, it simply requires the truth in humility.

Staying in touch with God, Owen believes that is the goal.
Temptation, that is intriguing, the way Owen states it. That gives cause to ponder.

 

[atpollard]

God desires all to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4.

… but not enough to actually save everyone.

 

[Clare73]

God reveals to us in His Word, that He leads and guides us, to work out his will in us, but only as the believer is faithful to live by and walk in the Spirit by which God dwells in us, for many Christians will grieve, quench, insult, and resist the Spirit in them, which can lead to condemnation (Hebrews 10:26-30). That is why Christians, who are straddling the fence, should fear in tremble.
Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.
Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.
Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit
That is why we must fear and tremble.

According to God's Word, what gives us the rebirth (Spiritual Life) is the Spirit of Christ living in us.

You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
The pleasure of the Spirit is to give life to those who believe demonstrated in obedience,

There is no obedience apart from rebirth in the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit (unregenerate) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." And that includes believing/faith.

Romans 8:7-8 - "the sinful (unregenerate) mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature (unregenerate) cannot please God."

but this is only for the New Covenant. The OT believers did not have benefit of the pouring out of the Spirit on those who believe.
John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! (continuous) 38 He who believes (continuous) in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.
Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth
The Holy Spirit only indwells and gives eternal life to those who believe,

Cart before the horse. . .

They believe only because the Holy Spirit has given them rebirth and indwells them, they can't even see, must less believe in, the kingdom of God without the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8).

and only in the New Covenant in Christ Jesus, just as Lord Jesus explained to Nicodemus in response to his question, “How can these things be?”
Lord Jesus explanation to Nicodemus is in John 3:13-18. So you want to read what Jesus taught Nicodemus in response to his question. Then you will see how the Spirit indwells us to give us life.
John 4:13-14 (WEB)
13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks (continuous) of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

The Passages you listed teach us that the guarantee and promise is only for those who believe (a continuous believing) demonstrated in obedience. That is the Promise and Guarantee.

The promise and guarantee are to the born again, who are the only ones who can believe, according to John 3:3-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8.

Hebrews 5:9 (NIV) 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.
Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Since the Promise is by Faith, then it is up to each individual to remain faithful to inherit the Promise of entering God’s eternal kingdom.

It is God who works in us to will and to do faithfulness. (Philippians 2:13)

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.
Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.
Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.
Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

God chose Abraham, just as he chose Israel, and just as he chose all of us, to carry out a special purpose, and NOT to make Abraham, or anyone else, believe.

There is no faith apart from the work of God and his Holy Spirit, for faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29;
2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yeah, I agree with that.

I didn't think that far. The point was just that Adam's fall would make no difference to the world if we already had a sinful nature before the fall.

Not sure why you are considering that, but...

In God's order of things, there had to be a fall from innocence, and the way of it points at the origin of sin (per the devil), and the symbolism, (if not the reality), of the two trees and nakedness, and of several other things.

It had to happen the way it happened, for God to accomplish his purposes. But I expect you already know that. So I can only guess why you bring up the notion.

I don't see any relevance of the idea to imputation, except to force out the notion of imputation. I.e., if it was not Adam, and Adam was already sinful, God would still have had a point of imputation through someone else earlier, I should think. The argument becomes circular. The fact that it WAS Adam, was a purposeful act of God upon humankind.

I tend to think that it's not Christ's righteousness imputed to us, but Christ's righteousness given us through the Holy Spirit, so we no longer live in sin, but live a new transformed and righteous life through and in Christ.

Christ's righteousness given —referring to practical righteousness, and therefore judged pure? Do you suppose any of us to have practical righteousness meriting that judgement?

 

[QvQ]

Keeping in mind humility is truth. . .it is not humility for the world's fastest runner to state he is really not that good a runner, nor for the one with humility to pretend he does not have it

Humility requires a very honest and realistic appraisal of self and world. In my estimation it is very closely aligned to repentance or a component thereof. I don't get any awards for holy but I also don't get to rend my garments, gnash my teeth while chanting "mea culpa, how great my sins.'
Just an ordinary sinner, banal in fact who bored God with common antics until God showed me uncommon truths.

 

[Clare73]

… but not enough to actually save everyone.

Ouch!

 

[Mark Quayle]

If they didn't have an evil nature, they could stop "transgressing" and flip side.

Transgressing, for them and for us, is demonstration of the evil nature. The one doesn't happen without the other. The "old man" is still with us, until we die.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Humility requires a very honest and realistic appraisal of self and world. In my estimation it is very closely aligned to repentance or a component thereof. I don't get any awards for holy but I also don't get to rend my garments, gnash my teeth while chanting "mea culpa, how great my sins.'
Just an ordinary sinner, banal in fact who bored God with common antics until God showed me uncommon truths.

I feel it incumbent on me to add one thing to that great post. Humility is beyond us, but for the Spirit of God —which claim I will try to demonstrate, thus: We are unable of ourselves to have an honest and realistic appraisal of self and world, but the Spirit of God has a perfect and comprehensive appraisal of us (and of world). It is only through a proper understanding of the fact that what we are is ONLY what God thinks of us and what he uses us for, that we can even begin to hold intellectually and habitually a true concept of self and world. Our identity is in him.

 

[atpollard]

Ouch!

Too many people want to nibble on UNIVERSALISM and call it the Love of God … but God said there is a hell and the road to it is WIDE and travelled by MANY. We do a disservice if we pretend that “all roads lead to heaven”.

 

[zoidar]

Transgressing, for them and for us, is demonstration of the evil nature. The one doesn't happen without the other. The "old man" is still with us, until we die.

The one doesn't happen without the other

Ok... wait a second! Did the angels transgress which gave them a sinful nature or did they have a sinful nature and therefore transgressed?

 

[Clare73]

Ok... wait a second! Did the angels transgress which gave them a sinful nature or did they have a sinful nature and therefore transgressed?

Neither. . .

They and Adam had the power not to transgress and chose to transgress, losing that power forever.

It's not complicated. . .

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

… but not enough to actually save everyone.

Sure He does since God is love and does not use coercion , manipulation, predetermining, forcing others to love Him but gives them the freedom to love Him in return . That is how love operates. A god who meticulously predetermined certain men to hell and others to heaven while giving them no choice to do otherwise is not a loving God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[zoidar]

Neither. . .

They and Adam had the power not to transgress and chose to transgress, losing that power forever.

It's not complicated. . .

You mean free will?

 

[Clare73]

You mean free will?

No, they have the "free will" of the Bible; i.e., the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what they prefer, like.

 

[zoidar]

No, they have the "free will" of the Bible; i.e., the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what they prefer, like.

Hm, why then did they transgress?

 

[atpollard]

Sure He does …

No! God does not save everyone. Everyone is not saved.

• Sheep and goats
• Wheat and tares
• Wide road and narrow path.

One denies the truths of scripture at one’s own peril.

 

[Clare73]

Hm, why then did they transgress?

Only one answer. . .Eve was deceived, and Adam chose not to lose her.

He preferred the creature over the Creator.

 

[QvQ]

You mean free will?

Certainly but not will power