What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[misput]

="QvQ, post: 76831021, member: 421823"]Man is born with urges (sins). Those urges are controlled, not by will, but by" likes", expediency, retribution or emotions. The iron fist of the worlds law attempts to maintain order. Giving free reign to urges is not free will. It is totally depravity.
When man is regenerate, sin becomes an entirely different concept. Man must rely on the Word of God to guide him in righteousness. Man does not have will power, so man must rely on the "higher power" or the Will of God to obey the Word.

Urges/temptation is not sin. James 1:14-15

 

[Clare73]

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but
sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

And yet they all died, because of sin, the cause of all physical death (Romans 6:23).

Of what sin did they die?

 

[Clare73]

Isn't Romans 5:13 talking about our sin?
What sin might an infant have that can be imputed to him/her?

One's own sin is incurred, not imputed.

 

[zoidar]

One's own sin is incurred, not imputed.

One's own sin is credited oneself. If it was not so, who would it be credited?

 

[Clare73]

One's own sin is credited oneself. If it was not so, who would it be credited?

To credit = to ascribe or attribute

To impute:
legally = to impose a charge, arraign
theologically = to ascribe, including vicariously

 

[QvQ]

Urges/temptation is not sin. James 1:14-15

A dog has urges. A dog, depending on circumstance, does or does not act on those urges. A dog does not have free will. A dog's will is nothing but urge. It is not under the dog's command or the dog's control.
An unregenerate man is a natural as a dog.
The only difference between a natural man and natural dog is that man is under God's law and answers to God, whether man realizes it or not.
The regenerate man, "He leads me in the path of righteousness for his name's sake. He restoreth my soul"

I have noticed in this discussion that "free will" has become a work we do for God in return for salvation. A work done by a person to like and approve of God, agree with Him, accept Him, decide whether or not to obey Him.
What about the doctrine of Justification and Grace?

 

[Clare73]

A dog has urges. A dog, depending on circumstance, does or does not act on those urges. A dog does not have free will. A dog's will is nothing but urge. It is not under the dog's command or the dog's control.
An unregenerate man is a natural as a dog.
The only difference between a natural man and natural dog is that man is under God's law and answerable to God, whether man realizes it or not.
The regenerate man, "He leads me in the path of righteousness for his name's sake. He restoreth my soul"

I have noticed in this discussion that "free will" has become a work we do for God in return for salvation. A decision a person makes to like and approve of God, agreeing with Him, accepting Him, deciding whether we will obey Him, . What about the doctrine of Justification and Grace?

Free will is simply the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers, likes.

It has nothing to do with grace, faith or justification, which are totally from God, and nothing from man.
"Free will" is the key to nothing spiritual.
God operates in man through and by using his free will.

 

[zoidar]

To credit is to ascribe.
To credit is not to impute.

It's a bit confusing because I need to get the nuances of the words. It goes back to understanding the Greek word "ellogeó". Again I'm no Greek scholar, so either I ask someone who is or use simple tools.

What sin might an infant have done that can be put on his/her account?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Did you read both verses I posted? "Where there is no law there is no sin." Small children, infants, the mentally challenged, people who live in remote areas etc. don't have the law they are not charged with sin.
If I go to a remote village in rural India and hand them an English Bible they still to not have the law.

Amen

 

[zoidar]

To credit = to ascribe or attribute

To impute:
legally = to impose a charge, arraign
theologically = to ascribe vicariously

I have to check this with a Greek scholar.

 

[misput]

God imputed guilt as a foreshadow, revelation, pattern of the one to come, Jesus Christ (Romans 5:14)... and also for the reason Mark has so well explained in post #4014, following:

An unborn child, nor anyone who does not know the law can be charged with actual sin unless we reach a point where we are accountable because of conscience, nature and creation Ro 1 & 2. Imputed sin nor imputed righteousness is our doing but God's.
soteriology101:
Made sinners by disobedience/actual work of sin or made/imputed righteous by faith, not works.
the difference is faith verses works, not chosen verses un-chosen

 

[Der Alte]

I have to check this with a Greek scholar.

From Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich, one of, if not, the most highly, accredited Greek lexicons available.

λογίζομαι (λόγος) impf. ἐλογιζόμην; fut. λογιοῦμαι LXX; 1 aor. ἐλογισάμην; pf. λελόγιμαι LXX. Pass.: 1 aor. ἐλογίσθην; 1 fut. λογισθήσομαι. Mid. dep. (B-D-F §311; Rob. 816; 819) (Soph., Hdt.+) prim. a mathematical and accounting term, then of cognitive processes. In our lit. esp. used by Paul.; s. GThomas, ET 17, 1906, 211ff.
① to determine by mathematical process, reckon, calculate, freq. in a transf. sense
ⓐ count, take into account τὶ someth. ἡ ἀγάπη οὐ λογίζεται τὸ κακόν love keeps no score of wrongs (REB) 1 Cor 13:5 (cp. Zech 8:17). λ. τί τινι count someth. against someone, to punish the person for it (Simplicius in Epict. p. 79, 15 τὴν ἁμαρτίαν οὐ τῷ πράττοντι λογίζονται; TestZeb 9:7; Just., D. 141, 2f) μὴ λογιζόμενος αὐτοῖς τὰ παραπτώματα 2 Cor 5:19.—οὗ (v.l. ᾧ) οὐ μὴ λογίσηται κύριος ἁμαρτίαν Ro 4:8; 1 Cl 50:6 (both Ps 31:2; cp. 1 Cl 60:2). Pass. (Lev 17:4) μὴ αὐτοῖς λογισθείη (on the form s. Mlt-H. 217) 2 Ti 4:16.—But ‘place to one’s account’ can also mean credit τῷ ἐργαζομένῳ ὁ μισθὸς οὐ λογίζεται κατὰ χάριν a worker’s wages are not credited as a favor (but as a claim) Ro 4:4. ᾧ ὁ θεὸς λογίζεται δικαιοσύνην vs. 6. Pass. εἰς τὸ λογισθῆναι αὐτοῖς τ. δικαιοσύνην vs. 11.—λ. τινί τι εἴς τι credit someth. to someone as someth. pass. ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην (after Gen 15:6; cp. Ps 105:31; 1 Macc 2:52) Ro 4:3, 5, 9, 22 (WDiezinger, NovT 5, ’62, 288–98 [rabbinic use of λογ.]); Gal 3:6; Js 2:23; 1 Cl 10:6.—Cp. also Ro 4:10, 23f.—H-WHeidland, D. Anrechnung des Glaubens zur Gerechtigkeit ’36; FDanker, in Gingrich Festschr. ’72, 104.—λ. εἴς τινα put on someone’s account, charge to someone (cp. the commercial terminology OGI 595, 15 τὰ ἕτερα ἀναλώματα ἑαυτοῖς ἐλογισάμεθα, ἵνα μὴ τὴν πόλιν βαρῶμεν; PFay 21, 9) μή τις εἰς ἐμὲ λογίσηται so that no one may credit me 2 Cor 12:6.
ⓑ as a result of a calculation evaluate, estimate, look upon as, consider (Hyperid. 2, 20; TestSol 4:11) εἰς οὐθὲν λογισθῆναι be looked upon as nothing (Is 40:17; Wsd 3:17; 9:6) Ac 19:27. τὰ τέκνα τ. ἐπαγγελίας λογίζεται εἰς σπέρμα the children of the promise are looked upon as seed Ro 9:8 (cp. La 4:2). οὐχ ἡ ἀκροβυστία αὐτοῦ εἰς περιτομὴν λογισθήσεται; will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 2:26. οὔτε τοὺς νομιζομένους ὑπὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων θεοὺς λογίζονται they do not recognize the deities honored by the Greeks Dg 1:1.—Count, class (PLond II, 328, 8 p. 75 [II A.D.] of a camel’s colt: λογιζομένου νυνὶ ἐν τελείοις=‘which is now classed among the full-grown’) μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη he was classed among the criminals (Is 53:12) Mk 15:27 [28] v.l.; Lk 22:37. Also (exactly like the LXX) ἐν τοῖς ἀνόμοις ἐλογίσθη 1 Cl 16:13. μετὰ τῶν ἐθνῶν ἐλογίσθησαν they were counted with the nations Hs 8, 9, 3.—οὐκ ἐλογίσθη he was held in disrespect 1 Cl 16:3 (Is 53:3).—λ. τινα ὡς w. acc. consider, look upon someone as: ἡμᾶς λογιζέσθω ἄνθρωπος ὡς ὑπηρέτας Χριστοῦ 1 Cor 4:1. λ. ἡμᾶς ὡς κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦντας 2 Cor 10:2b. Pass. ἐλογίσθημεν ὡς πρόβατα σφαγῆς Ro 8:36 (Ps 43:23). πιστοὶ λογισθέντες regarded as believers Dg 11:2. ὁ σήμερον υἱὸς λογισθείς who today is celebrated as a Son 11:5 (Ps 2:7). λ. τινα foll. by acc. and inf. (Is 53:4) λογίζεσθε ἑαυτοὺς εἶναι νεκρούς consider yourselves dead Ro 6:11. ἡμεῖς ἐλογισάμεθα αὐτὸν εἶναι ἐν πόνῳ we deemed him to be in pain (as punishment) 1 Cl 16:4.
② to give careful thought to a matter, think (about), consider, ponder, let one’s mind dwell on τὶ someth. (PsSol 2, 28b; ApcEsdr 3:9; Philo, Leg. All. 3, 227 ταῦτα; Jos., Ant. 6, 211) Phil 4:8. Foll. by ὅτι (PsSol 2, 28a; Philo, Somn. 2, 169; Jos., Ant. 11, 142; Ath., R. 9 p. 57, 30) J 11:50; Hb 11:19. τοῦτο λ. ὅτι 2 Cor 10:11, 7 (here ἐφʼ [v.l. ἀφʼ] ἑαυτοῦ in his own mind is added); B 1:5. W. ἐν ἑαυτῷ and direct speech Hs 5, 2, 4 (cp. GrBar 4:12); w. ἐν ἑαυταῖς and direct question foll. Lk 24:1 D; also ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις αὐτῶν πότερον … ἤ Hs 9, 28, 4.—Have in mind, propose, purpose Dg 7:3 (Mel., P. 63, 455); w. inf. foll. (X., An. 2, 2, 13; 1 Macc 6:19) 2 Cor 10:2a. Think out τὶ someth. (Ps 51:4) ὡς ἐξ ἑαυτῶν as (if) of ourselves 3:5. Reason or make plans (Wsd 2:1) ὡς νήπιος like a child 1 Cor 13:11.
③ to hold a view about someth., think, believe, be of the opinion w. ὅτι foll. (Just., A I, 8, 1 al.) Ro 8:18. W. acc. and ὅτι foll.: λογίζῃ τοῦτο … , ὅτι; do you imagine that? 2:3. Foll. by acc. and inf. (Wsd 15:12; Just., A I, 53, 1; Tat., Ath.) λογιζόμεθα δικαιοῦσθαι ἄνθρωπον we hold a person to be justified 3:28. λ. τι κοινὸν εἶναι 14:14. ἐμαυτὸν οὐ (v.l. οὔπω) λ. κατειληφέναι I consider that I have not yet attained Phil 3:13. ὃν λογίζομαι καὶ τοὺς ἀθέους ἐντρέπεσθαι whom, I think, even the godless respect ITr 3:2. Foll. by the inf. alone 2 Cor 11:5; Dg 3:3 (Just., D. 102, 7 al.).—ὡς λογίζομαι as I think 1 Pt 5:12; Mk 11:31 v.l.—DELG s.v. λέγω 2. M-M. EDNT. TW.

William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, Walter Bauer, et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 597–598.​

 

[Clare73]

An unborn child,

Agreed. . .an unborn child is not charged with actual sin.
Rather, Adam's sin/guilt is imputed (vicariously ascribed) to him by God at birth (Romans 5:18).

nor anyone who does not know the law can be charged with actual sin
unless we reach a point where we are accountable because of conscience, nature and creation Ro 1 & 2.

Agreed. . .actual sin must be incurred by the individual.

Imputed sin nor imputed righteousness is our doing but God's.

Agreed, both are God's doing. . .and God imputes Adam's sin/guilt to all at birth (Romans 5:18).

soteriology101:
Made sinners by disobedience/actual work of sin or made/imputed righteous by faith, not works.
the difference is faith verses works, not chosen verses un-chosen

Actually, likewise made guilty by imputation of Adam's sin/guilt to all mankind, not imputed just to the "accountable," but to all. (Romans 5:18)
And made righteous by the imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith (Romans 4:1-11).

 

[Clare73]

It's a bit confusing because I need to get the nuances of the words. It goes back to understanding the Greek word "ellogeó". Again I'm no Greek scholar, so either I ask someone who is or use simple tools.

First of all, I did not state what you quote me as stating: "to credit is not to impute."

And secondly, "it goes back to understanding the Greek word ellogeo" as it is used in the NT, and which is determined by the context/teaching of the whole NT, which you appear to me to be not as familiar with as you need to be in order to see into these things.

ellogeo = impute, to charge to a person's account (Romans 5:13), to put to my account (Philemon 18).

What sin might an infant have done that can be put on his/her account?

Romans 5:13 is in the context of the time between Adam and Moses.

No sin/guilt was charged to anyone's account between Adam and Moses because there was no law to sin against.
No one personally incurred sin/guilt between Adam and Moses (Romans 5:14).

Yet everyone died because of their guilt of sin (Romans 6:23). . .which they did not personally incur.

So what sin/guilt was charged to their account?
The sin/guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18).

It is Adam's (not the child's or anyone else's incurred) sin/guilt that is vicariously charged to the account of everyone (born of Adam)--Romans 5:18,

which is the pattern for "the one to come," Christ (Romans 5:14), whose obedience/righteousness is vicariously charged to the account of everyone (born of Christ)--Romans 5:18-19.

Seems like we keep going over the same things. . .over and over.

 

[Der Alte]

An unborn child, nor anyone who does not know the law can be charged with actual sin unless we reach a point where we are accountable because of conscience, nature and creation Ro 1 & 2. Imputed sin nor imputed righteousness is our doing but God's.
soteriology101:
Made sinners by disobedience/actual work of sin or made/imputed righteous by faith, not works.
the difference is faith verses works, not chosen verses un-chosen

I think you are lacking a "Neither" at the beginning of the first sentence. Just sayin'.

 

[zoidar]

From Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich, one of, if not, the most highly, accredited Greek lexicons available.

λογίζομαι (λόγος) impf. ἐλογιζόμην; fut. λογιοῦμαι LXX; 1 aor. ἐλογισάμην; pf. λελόγιμαι LXX. Pass.: 1 aor. ἐλογίσθην; 1 fut. λογισθήσομαι. Mid. dep. (B-D-F §311; Rob. 816; 819) (Soph., Hdt.+) prim. a mathematical and accounting term, then of cognitive processes. In our lit. esp. used by Paul.; s. GThomas, ET 17, 1906, 211ff.
① to determine by mathematical process, reckon, calculate, freq. in a transf. sense
ⓐ count, take into account τὶ someth. ἡ ἀγάπη οὐ λογίζεται τὸ κακόν love keeps no score of wrongs (REB) 1 Cor 13:5 (cp. Zech 8:17). λ. τί τινι count someth. against someone, to punish the person for it (Simplicius in Epict. p. 79, 15 τὴν ἁμαρτίαν οὐ τῷ πράττοντι λογίζονται; TestZeb 9:7; Just., D. 141, 2f) μὴ λογιζόμενος αὐτοῖς τὰ παραπτώματα 2 Cor 5:19.—οὗ (v.l. ᾧ) οὐ μὴ λογίσηται κύριος ἁμαρτίαν Ro 4:8; 1 Cl 50:6 (both Ps 31:2; cp. 1 Cl 60:2). Pass. (Lev 17:4) μὴ αὐτοῖς λογισθείη (on the form s. Mlt-H. 217) 2 Ti 4:16.—But ‘place to one’s account’ can also mean credit τῷ ἐργαζομένῳ ὁ μισθὸς οὐ λογίζεται κατὰ χάριν a worker’s wages are not credited as a favor (but as a claim) Ro 4:4. ᾧ ὁ θεὸς λογίζεται δικαιοσύνην vs. 6. Pass. εἰς τὸ λογισθῆναι αὐτοῖς τ. δικαιοσύνην vs. 11.—λ. τινί τι εἴς τι credit someth. to someone as someth. pass. ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην (after Gen 15:6; cp. Ps 105:31; 1 Macc 2:52) Ro 4:3, 5, 9, 22 (WDiezinger, NovT 5, ’62, 288–98 [rabbinic use of λογ.]); Gal 3:6; Js 2:23; 1 Cl 10:6.—Cp. also Ro 4:10, 23f.—H-WHeidland, D. Anrechnung des Glaubens zur Gerechtigkeit ’36; FDanker, in Gingrich Festschr. ’72, 104.—λ. εἴς τινα put on someone’s account, charge to someone (cp. the commercial terminology OGI 595, 15 τὰ ἕτερα ἀναλώματα ἑαυτοῖς ἐλογισάμεθα, ἵνα μὴ τὴν πόλιν βαρῶμεν; PFay 21, 9) μή τις εἰς ἐμὲ λογίσηται so that no one may credit me 2 Cor 12:6.
ⓑ as a result of a calculation evaluate, estimate, look upon as, consider (Hyperid. 2, 20; TestSol 4:11) εἰς οὐθὲν λογισθῆναι be looked upon as nothing (Is 40:17; Wsd 3:17; 9:6) Ac 19:27. τὰ τέκνα τ. ἐπαγγελίας λογίζεται εἰς σπέρμα the children of the promise are looked upon as seed Ro 9:8 (cp. La 4:2). οὐχ ἡ ἀκροβυστία αὐτοῦ εἰς περιτομὴν λογισθήσεται; will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 2:26. οὔτε τοὺς νομιζομένους ὑπὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων θεοὺς λογίζονται they do not recognize the deities honored by the Greeks Dg 1:1.—Count, class (PLond II, 328, 8 p. 75 [II A.D.] of a camel’s colt: λογιζομένου νυνὶ ἐν τελείοις=‘which is now classed among the full-grown’) μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη he was classed among the criminals (Is 53:12) Mk 15:27 [28] v.l.; Lk 22:37. Also (exactly like the LXX) ἐν τοῖς ἀνόμοις ἐλογίσθη 1 Cl 16:13. μετὰ τῶν ἐθνῶν ἐλογίσθησαν they were counted with the nations Hs 8, 9, 3.—οὐκ ἐλογίσθη he was held in disrespect 1 Cl 16:3 (Is 53:3).—λ. τινα ὡς w. acc. consider, look upon someone as: ἡμᾶς λογιζέσθω ἄνθρωπος ὡς ὑπηρέτας Χριστοῦ 1 Cor 4:1. λ. ἡμᾶς ὡς κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦντας 2 Cor 10:2b. Pass. ἐλογίσθημεν ὡς πρόβατα σφαγῆς Ro 8:36 (Ps 43:23). πιστοὶ λογισθέντες regarded as believers Dg 11:2. ὁ σήμερον υἱὸς λογισθείς who today is celebrated as a Son 11:5 (Ps 2:7). λ. τινα foll. by acc. and inf. (Is 53:4) λογίζεσθε ἑαυτοὺς εἶναι νεκρούς consider yourselves dead Ro 6:11. ἡμεῖς ἐλογισάμεθα αὐτὸν εἶναι ἐν πόνῳ we deemed him to be in pain (as punishment) 1 Cl 16:4.
② to give careful thought to a matter, think (about), consider, ponder, let one’s mind dwell on τὶ someth. (PsSol 2, 28b; ApcEsdr 3:9; Philo, Leg. All. 3, 227 ταῦτα; Jos., Ant. 6, 211) Phil 4:8. Foll. by ὅτι (PsSol 2, 28a; Philo, Somn. 2, 169; Jos., Ant. 11, 142; Ath., R. 9 p. 57, 30) J 11:50; Hb 11:19. τοῦτο λ. ὅτι 2 Cor 10:11, 7 (here ἐφʼ [v.l. ἀφʼ] ἑαυτοῦ in his own mind is added); B 1:5. W. ἐν ἑαυτῷ and direct speech Hs 5, 2, 4 (cp. GrBar 4:12); w. ἐν ἑαυταῖς and direct question foll. Lk 24:1 D; also ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις αὐτῶν πότερον … ἤ Hs 9, 28, 4.—Have in mind, propose, purpose Dg 7:3 (Mel., P. 63, 455); w. inf. foll. (X., An. 2, 2, 13; 1 Macc 6:19) 2 Cor 10:2a. Think out τὶ someth. (Ps 51:4) ὡς ἐξ ἑαυτῶν as (if) of ourselves 3:5. Reason or make plans (Wsd 2:1) ὡς νήπιος like a child 1 Cor 13:11.
③ to hold a view about someth., think, believe, be of the opinion w. ὅτι foll. (Just., A I, 8, 1 al.) Ro 8:18. W. acc. and ὅτι foll.: λογίζῃ τοῦτο … , ὅτι; do you imagine that? 2:3. Foll. by acc. and inf. (Wsd 15:12; Just., A I, 53, 1; Tat., Ath.) λογιζόμεθα δικαιοῦσθαι ἄνθρωπον we hold a person to be justified 3:28. λ. τι κοινὸν εἶναι 14:14. ἐμαυτὸν οὐ (v.l. οὔπω) λ. κατειληφέναι I consider that I have not yet attained Phil 3:13. ὃν λογίζομαι καὶ τοὺς ἀθέους ἐντρέπεσθαι whom, I think, even the godless respect ITr 3:2. Foll. by the inf. alone 2 Cor 11:5; Dg 3:3 (Just., D. 102, 7 al.).—ὡς λογίζομαι as I think 1 Pt 5:12; Mk 11:31 v.l.—DELG s.v. λέγω 2. M-M. EDNT. TW.

William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, Walter Bauer, et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 597–598.​

I don't fully understand how to use this...

 

[Clare73]

I don't fully understand how to use this...

Best I can tell, it's about the word "reckon" (logizomai),
not the word "impute" (ellogeo) used in Romans 5:13.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't fully understand how to use this...

No problemo. This is the head word λογίζομαι Lohgitzomai[my] The root word is "logos" (λόγος) The various shades of meaning are listed in the complete definition. I highlighted the vss. where the word occurs in blue. To find the best meaning of the word in e.g. 1 Cor 13:5 start at the vs, and work backward to a number ① or a letter in a circle ⓐ
The first variation listed is λελόγιμαι. The best meaning of that form of the word is under
"①ⓐ count, take into account τὶ someth. ἡ ἀγάπη οὐ λογίζεται τὸ κακόν love keeps no score of wrongs (REB)"
And where it occurs is 1 Cor 13:5. That holds true throughout.
Some people make the mistake of thinking they can look at all the meanings for a word in Strong's and just pick one they like.

 

[zoidar]

No problemo. This is the head word λογίζομαι Lohgitzomai[my] The root word is "logos" (λόγος) The various shades of meaning are listed in the complete definition. I highlighted the vss. where the word occurs in blue. To find the best meaning of the word in e.g. 1 Cor 13:5 start at the vs, and work backward to a number ① or a letter in a circle ⓐ
The first variation listed is λελόγιμαι. The best meaning of that form of the word is under
"①ⓐ count, take into account τὶ someth. ἡ ἀγάπη οὐ λογίζεται τὸ κακόν love keeps no score of wrongs (REB)"
And where it occurs is 1 Cor 13:5. That holds true throughout.
Some people make the mistake of thinking they can look at all the meanings for a word in Strong's and just pick one they like.

But we don't have Romans 5:13 in there. How do I know which words fit ellogeó there? Do you mean lohgitzomai has the same meaning?

Sorry if I sound like a rookie, I'm just not that experienced with the use of lexicons.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Scripts means the same thing as causes. Neither cause nor script state method.

Well, no. Not quite the same.