What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

The imputed righteousness of Christ is a huge argument against those who would claim that we lose our salvation every time we sin, and that if we sin without repenting before we die, we go to Hell. Their logic can't touch that! So it is also with the imputed sin. No argument can touch it.

That sounds like a doctrince that brings a lot of insecurity. Losing salvation over one sin sounds crazy, unless it's a real terrible sin like murder. I know the case of David and Bathsheba. It's debatable, but I think he was on the brink of losing his salvation.

It's a good thing the "imputed sin" brings, that it is an argument against that we lose salvation each time we sin. True that! But there are other arguments against that as well, even if we don't believe in the imputed sin.

 

[misput]

I see! But you said that the one doesn't happen without the other. We sin because we have a sinful nature, that's true. But how is the other true, that we have a sinful nature because we sin?

We are born with a fleshly, sinful nature, that does not mean we are born guilty of sin.

 

[misput]

We are born with a fleshly, sinful nature, that does not mean we are born guilty of sin.

Some are saying God imputes Adam's sin to us so we are born guilty of sin.

 

[misput]

Some are saying God imputes Adam's sin to us so we are born guilty of sin.

It seems to me God created Adam with a fleshly sinful nature. He was flesh right? He sinned for the same reason we do, a fleshly sinful nature. I think some denie this so we must blame Adam instead of God for our sin but it does not matter, God made us the way we are either way and called it very good, so we need to look for why He called this very good.

 

[misput]

It seems to me God created Adam with a fleshly sinful nature. He was flesh right? He sinned for the same reason we do, a fleshly sinful nature. I think some denie this so we must blame Adam instead of God for our sin but it does not matter, God made us the way we are either way and called it very good, so we need to look for why He called this very good.

Is there a very good reason why God made everything the way it is? Think about it, there must be because He said so.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It seems to me God created Adam with a fleshly sinful nature. He was flesh right? He sinned for the same reason we do, a fleshly sinful nature. I think some denie this so we must blame Adam instead of God for our sin but it does not matter, God made us the way we are either way and called it very good, so we need to look for why He called this very good.

That is impossible unless you are saying the sinful flesh(sin nature ) is good. Are you saying its good ?

God said everything He created was good.

 

[misput]

That is impossible unless you are saying the sinful flesh(sin nature ) is good. Are you saying its good ?

God said everything He created was good.

God said so, so our definition of good must be flawed.

 

[Clare73]

It's not like I disagree, but the question was more of a "how" than a "why".

Adam didn't have a fallen nature, even so he could choose evil, to transgress, give up eternal life for Eve. We agree they didn't have a fallen nature before transgression, so they must have gotten the fallen nature after the transgression. But you said that isn't the case.

You must have misunderstood something.

Adam incurred the fallen nature as the natural consequences of his rebellion, which is now passed down to all his descendants (like a congenital birth defect)--which consequence wrecked all of creation, giving entrance to decay and death, and which fallen nature is inherited by all mankind.

God imputed Adam's sin/guilt to us, who was a pattern of the one to come (Romans 5:14), which imputation is not the natural result of our fallen nature, but an act of God.

This is where I don't understand how you could say that neither the transgression resulted in the sinful nature,

The how:

Fallen nature was the natural consequences of the transgression, and is inherited by all mankind.

The sin/guilt of Adam, who was the pattern of the one to come (Romans 5:14), is an imputed consequence to all mankind by God (Romans 5:18).

So the guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind with their existence (Romans 5:18), making us by nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and making Adam a pattern of the one to come (Romans 5:14).
This would be an example of my "logic". . .Scripture is its basis; i.e., my "logic" is governed by the Scriptural facts, not man's reasoning.

nor that the sinful nature resulted in the transgression.

Since you didn't answer this I got irritated and was provocative. I'm sorry for that!

Okay, there seems to be a misunderstanding somewhere.
So let me address your "God is sovereign" dismissive remark.

That Adam is a "pattern" is not about God's sovereignty operating in the disposition (disposing) of men.
Adam being a pattern of the one to come is about the divine wisdom's revelation of that one to come.
Not the same thing as your dismissive remark, which I experience as dismissive of God's word in favor of your "logic." I expected more of you.

If you don't want to get into the philosophy/logical arguments, then no problem. But
would be nice to know how you reason.

Agreed. . .and I am happy to explain how my understanding is derived.
Scripture, not human logic, is its governor. . .nor do I not find Scripture to be illogical.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

God said so, so our definition of good must be flawed.

or your definition of sinful, sin, sin nature.

 

[Clare73]

Besides that it provided a pattern for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, as @Clare73 said, is the fact that it proclaims us guilty in spite of ANY protests of innocence. We are at God's mercy, deserving only judgement, no excuse anyone can believe in will cut it.

I think it also provides relevance to several other doctrines that I don't understand yet to my satisfaction, (for example, the Death of Death in the Death of Christ, (a book by John Owen) and related principles). And not that this is necessarily a redundancy as such, but God sometimes punctuates things he teaches or does, by redundancy, in this case perhaps, 'so that our sin will be seen to be exceedingly sinful'.

You understand it well. . .I file it under "the divine mind."

Sounds like you are describing IMPUTED righteousness, at first there: "righteousness is living in a relationship with God through Jesus". The imputed righteousness of Christ is a huge argument against those who would claim that we lose our salvation every time we sin, and that if we sin without repenting before we die, we go to Hell. Their logic can't touch that! So it is also with the imputed sin. No argument can touch it.

PRECISELY!

God has bound all men over to disobedience, so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:32)

 

[zoidar]

You must have misunderstood something.

Adam incurred the fallen nature as the natural consequences of his rebellion, which is now passed down to all his descendants (like a congenital birth defect)--which consequence wrecked all of creation, giving entrance to decay and death, and which fallen nature is inherited by all mankind.

God imputed Adam's sin/guilt to us, who was a pattern of the one to come (Romans 5:14), which imputation is not the natural result of our fallen nature, but an act of God.
The how:

Fallen nature was the natural consequences of the transgression, and is inherited by all mankind.

The sin/guilt of Adam, who was the pattern of the one to come (Romans 5:14), is an imputed consequence to all mankind by God (Romans 5:18).

So the guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind with their existence (Romans 5:18), making us by nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and making Adam a pattern of the one to come (Romans 5:14).
This would be an example of my "logic". . .Scripture is its basis; i.e., my "logic" is governed by the Scriptural facts, not man's reasoning.

Okay, there seems to be a misunderstanding somewhere.
So let me address your "God is sovereign" dismissive remark.

That Adam is a "pattern" is not about God's sovereignty operating in the disposition (disposing) of men.
Adam being a pattern of the one to come is about the divine wisdom's revelation of that one to come.
Not the same thing as your dismissive remark, which I experience as dismissive of God's word in favor of your "logic." I expected more of you.

Agreed. . .and I am happy to explain how my understanding is derived.
Scripture, not human logic, is its governor. . .nor do I not find Scripture to be illogical.

I said:

"Did the angels transgress which gave them a sinful nature or did they have a sinful nature and therefore transgressed?"

Your answer was:

Neither. . .

They and Adam had the power not to transgress and chose to transgress, losing that power forever.

It's not complicated. . .

To me that sounds like you are saying that the angels and Adam neither incurred their sinful nature from their first transgression nor transgressed for the first time because they had a sinful nature.

But good it's a misunderstanding. What you explain in the post is not something new to me, it's just like I said I doubt it is correct (the part about imputed sin).

 

[Clare73]

God imputed sin, guilt and condemnation to everyone so there would be a pattern between Adam and Christ? This means, everyone/unborn/infants/children,etc who die before they are born again are condemned to hell? That is some great theology, I am impressed. Teach me more, like what the two trees and the snake in Genesis represent : )

Precisely. . .

Those who don't believe in Jesus are condemned already (John 3:18), God's wrath remains on them (John 3:36).

God imputed guilt as a foreshadow, revelation, pattern of the one to come, Jesus Christ (Romans 5:14)... and also for the reason Mark has so well explained in post #4014, following:

Besides that it provided a pattern for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, as @Clare73 said, is the fact that it proclaims us guilty in spite of ANY protests of innocence. We are at God's mercy, deserving only judgement, no excuse anyone can believe in will cut it. I think it also provides relevance to several other doctrines that I don't understand yet to my satisfaction, (for example, the Death of Death in the Death of Christ,

(a book by John Owen) and related principles). And not that this is necessarily a redundancy as such, but God sometimes punctuates things he teaches or does, by redundancy, in this case perhaps, 'so that our sin will be seen to be exceedingly sinful'.

Sounds like you are describing IMPUTED righteousness, at first there: "righteousness is living in a relationship with God through Jesus". The imputed righteousness of Christ is a huge argument against those who would claim that we lose our salvation every time we sin, and that if we sin without repenting before we die, we go to Hell. Their logic can't touch that! So it is also with the imputed sin. No argument can touch it.

 

[setst777]

That is impossible unless you are saying the sinful flesh(sin nature ) is good. Are you saying its good ?

God said everything He created was good.

God created Lucifer as a perfect angel of light. That is, until sin was found in him.

Ezekiel 28:15 (RHE) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day of thy creation, until iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was perfect when God created him. The sin is not God's doing; rather Lucifer himself sinned in pride.

 

[Der Alte]

Some are saying God imputes Adam's sin to us so we are born guilty of sin.

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

This covers small children, infants, the mentally challenged, those living in some far off remote jungle or desert, etc.

 

[QvQ]

We are born with a fleshly, sinful nature, that does not mean we are born guilty of sin.

Man is born with urges (sins). Those urges are controlled, not by will, but by" likes", expediency, retribution or emotions. The iron fist of the worlds law attempts to maintain order. Giving free reign to urges is not free will. It is totally depravity.
When man is regenerate, sin becomes an entirely different concept. Man must rely on the Word of God to guide him in righteousness. Man does not have will power, so man must rely on the "higher power" or the Will of God to obey the Word.

 

[zoidar]

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

This covers small children, infants, the mentally challenged, those living in some far off remote jungle or desert, etc.

Isn't Romans 5:13 talking about our sin? What sin might an infant have that can be imputed to him/her?

 

[Clare73]

I said:
"Did the angels transgress which gave them a sinful nature or did they have a sinful nature and therefore transgressed?"
Your answer was:

Neither. . .They and Adam had the power not to transgress and chose to transgress, losing that power forever.
It's not complicated. . .

To me that sounds like you are saying that the angels and Adam neither incurred their sinful nature from their first transgression nor transgressed for the first time because they had a sinful nature.

The power referred to, and the power lost, was the power not to transgress.

Biblical free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers, likes.

Adam had the power to choose in all cases either not to transgress, or to transgress.

His choice to transgress God's will resulted in loss of the preference for God's will, it is foreign to him,
now man "does not accept the things that come from God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, for they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).
Now man prefers his own will rather than God's will, and that is what he chooses.

But good it's a misunderstanding. What you explain in the post is not something new to me, it's just like I said I doubt it is correct.

Romans 11:32 - "God has bound ("inclosed," shut in on all sides, no escape) all men over to disobedience". . .good description of "imputation of sin/guilt,"

in addition to Adam being a pattern for Christ (Romans 5:14). . .pattern of what?

 

[Der Alte]

Isn't Romans 5:13 talking about our sin? What sin might an infant have that can be imputed to him/her?

Did you read both verses I posted? "Where there is no law there is no sin." Small children, infants, the mentally challenged, people who live in remote areas etc. don't have the law they are not charged with sin.
If I go to a remote village in rural India and hand them an English Bible they still to not have the law.

 

[misput]

God created Lucifer as a perfect angel of light. That is, until sin was found in him.

Ezekiel 28:15 (RHE) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day of thy creation, until iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was perfect when God created him. The sin is not God's doing; rather Lucifer himself sinned in pride.

Tell me who Lucifer/the snake in the garden is, then we may be able to debate on an equal footing.

 

[zoidar]

Did you read both verses I posted? "Where there is no law there is no sin." Small children, infants, the mentally challenged, people who live in remote areas etc. don't have the law they are not charged with sin.
If I go to a remote village in rural India and hand them an English Bible they still to not have the law.

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
— Romans 2:12-16