What is the Scriptural Basis for Cessationism?

[YeshuaFan]

I've got news for you. There were frauds and deceptions in apostolic times, you only have to read the epistles to see that.

The devil becomes very active in times of revival...it has the effect of sorting out those who will cling close as they can to God's word and neither veer to the right or the left.

There could be no fraud unless there were first that precious thing to counterfeit. Will you reject gold and silver because people play with tinsel?

The WoF elevate teachers and so called Apostles and prophets to be on the level of the NT ones, and none can ever claim that status!

 

[YeshuaFan]

But you say it is ceased...in the bible [and I really wish you would abide by what the bible teaches] the women prophesied but they were forbidden to teach...how does that fit in with your new fangled doctrine?

That prophesy was NOT the one that God uses today, as they were giving words of exhortation, guidance, direction in the time when there was no completed word of the lord, but we now have the complete and sure word of prophecy from the Lord, called the scriptures. What do you need to add to what was recorded down there for us?

 

[Major1]

So in your view, preaching has failed
Tongues have ceased
knowledge has vanished away

My dear friend. You say those words like I am the one who wrote them.

Again, what does the Scriptures say that PAUL wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit...

1 Corinthians 13:8...…….
"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away."

"But whether there be prophecies"
- That is, the “gift” of prophecy, or the power of speaking as a prophet; that is, of delivering the truth of God in an intelligible manner under the influence of inspiration; the gift of being a public speaker, of instructing and edifying the church, and foretelling future events.……….."They shall fail".

"There be tongues" - The power of speaking foreign languages.

They shall cease!

"whether there be knowledge- it shall vanish away".
that is, the word of knowledge, peculiarly given by the spirit to some persons only; or that peculiar gift of knowledge of divine things. That is why God gave us the completed Bible my brother.

I did not say those things my brother. The only reason you reject those words is because YOU want to go on speaking in tongues. As I have said...….Please go right ahead and do so.

You had the same Bible I have and you have read the same words I have read and the difference is that I believe them and you reject them. So, you did not need my approval the many years ago when you began to speak in tongues and you surely do not need it now. So enjoy!!!!!!

 

[Major1]

The WoF elevate teachers and so called Apostles and prophets to be on the level of the NT ones, and none can ever claim that status!

Agreed! There are NO Prophets or apostles today.

 

[Major1]

But you say it is ceased...in the bible [and I really wish you would abide by what the bible teaches] the women prophesied but they were forbidden to teach...how does that fit in with your new fangled doctrine?

One again I must tell you that you are in error.

The Bible does NOT say women "were forbidden to teach".

The Bible actually says ……..
"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man".
(1 Tim. 2:11).

One of the things I have learned over the years is that “a text without a context is a pretext.” It is a basic hermeneutical principle that, to be properly interpreted, passages must be considered in their immediate context, in their historical context, and in the context of the entirety of Scripture. So when I began looking more deeply into this issue just prior to entering seminary, I was intrigued by the possibility the meaning of these passages was not as obvious as it seemed.

Observe 1 Tim. 2:11. I
It does not say women but a woman, and better still, a wife. The word in Greek is gune (1135), which indicates either a woman generically speaking or a wife, depending on the context. In this instance, since it stands in apposition to the word andros (the genitive singular of aner here meaning only “husband” and not “man” generically, 435), it must be translated as “a wife.” It is because of the mistranslations of these passages that the Christian world has had so much difficulty in understanding the proper position of a woman in the Christian Church…Verse 12 is again poorly translated in the K.J.V. It should not be “But I suffer not a woman to teach,” but “I suffer not a wife….”
Gospel Answers - Women Preachers: Forbidden in the Bible?

And with that I remind YOU of YOUR words...………
"[and I really wish you would abide by what the bible teaches]".

 

[ToBeLoved]

So in your view, preaching has failed
Tongues have ceased
knowledge has vanished away

It is only the continuists view that their is any failing on God’s part as these gifts have ceased.

No matter how often one may talk about how great that faith is, if God has decided something one disagrees with for that person to then attribute to God ‘failure’ is to call into question the perfection and Holiness of God.

Maybe the failure you see is not God’s but the followers of these preachers by those seeking their own power, the miraculous as a sign of their human strength and greatness and inability to read God’s Word and take it for what it says.

These preachers have a lot of followers.

Maybe the only reason the preachers have a platform to preach is because of the ones that follow and support them.

They wouldn’t exist without followers.

 

[tdidymas]

No, there is one Spirit who gave and gives the gifts of tongues, instead what I am saying is that such as Peter in Acts speaking in tongues was not defined as a miracle by the Bible. Miracles were listed separately in the list of works of Jesus and the apostles from tongues, and I think healings.

"The working of miracles" was one of the gifts of the Spirit. It does not negate that the other gifts were miraculous in nature also. Case in point is Paul telling Elymas that he would be blind for a time, and it happened. That was both a working of a miracle and a prophecy. Another case is when Paul cast the demon out of the psychic girl. It was both discerning of spirits and exercise of supernatural power. Whether one might say that was a miracle or not is debatable, depending on what limits you put on the definition. I would say it was miraculous, because Paul could not have discerned the evil spirit according to natural means, since she was telling the truth about them. If a person with the gift of knowledge tells the secrets of another person's heart, it is by supernatural means, and not by natural means. When Jesus told the woman at the well that she had 5 husbands and was living with a man not her husband, that information could not have been obtained by natural means, so it was miraculous in nature.

I could go on with many examples, but let this be sufficient to my point. I don't agree with your theory that just because one of the gifts was "the working of miracles" that the other gifts weren't miraculous. The description and narrative given to us in Acts proves without doubt that the gift of tongues given to the apostles was miraculous in nature. IMO you are merely trying to justify the usage of modern-day glossalalia and the claim that it is a gift of the Spirit, by your theory that Biblical tongues wasn't miraculous. I disagree with your theory. The scripture clearly tells me that all the gifts of the Spirit were miraculous by nature. And if you think that healings which Jesus and the apostles did were not miraculous in nature, IMO you haven't dug deep enough in the scripture.
TD

 

[Major1]

No, there is one Spirit who gave and gives the gifts of tongues, instead what I am saying is that such as Peter in Acts speaking in tongues was not defined as a miracle by the Bible. Miracles were listed separately in the list of works of Jesus and the apostles from tongues, and I think healings.

But that is YOUR opinion. What does the Word of God say.

John 10:37-38, Jesus was responding to the Jews who wanted to stone Him for blasphemy, and He said, ………..
“If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

Just as in the Old Testament, the purpose of Jesus' miracles was to confirm God's hand on His Messenger. The "Miracles" VALIDATE the message as coming from God the Creator.

When the Pharisees asked Jesus to show them a sign, Jesus said in Matt. 12:39-41..... “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here”.

Jesus was very clear that the purpose of a sign was so people would acknowledge God's message and respond accordingly.

Likewise, in John 4:48..................…
" He told the nobleman, “Unless you see signs and wonders, you will not believe.”

The signs were a help to those who struggled to believe, but the message of salvation in Christ was always the focus.

 

[Billy Evmur]

One again I must tell you that you are in error.

The Bible does NOT say women "were forbidden to teach".

The Bible actually says ……..
"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man".
(1 Tim. 2:11).

One of the things I have learned over the years is that “a text without a context is a pretext.” It is a basic hermeneutical principle that, to be properly interpreted, passages must be considered in their immediate context, in their historical context, and in the context of the entirety of Scripture. So when I began looking more deeply into this issue just prior to entering seminary, I was intrigued by the possibility the meaning of these passages was not as obvious as it seemed.

Observe 1 Tim. 2:11. I
It does not say women but a woman, and better still, a wife. The word in Greek is gune (1135), which indicates either a woman generically speaking or a wife, depending on the context. In this instance, since it stands in apposition to the word andros (the genitive singular of aner here meaning only “husband” and not “man” generically, 435), it must be translated as “a wife.” It is because of the mistranslations of these passages that the Christian world has had so much difficulty in understanding the proper position of a woman in the Christian Church…Verse 12 is again poorly translated in the K.J.V. It should not be “But I suffer not a woman to teach,” but “I suffer not a wife….”
Gospel Answers - Women Preachers: Forbidden in the Bible?

And with that I remind YOU of YOUR words...………
"[and I really wish you would abide by what the bible teaches]".

Rediculous, you saying a woman can only teach if she is a virgin....

 

[Billy Evmur]

My dear friend. You say those words like I am the one who wrote them.

Again, what does the Scriptures say that PAUL wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit...

1 Corinthians 13:8...…….
"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away."

"But whether there be prophecies"
- That is, the “gift” of prophecy, or the power of speaking as a prophet; that is, of delivering the truth of God in an intelligible manner under the influence of inspiration; the gift of being a public speaker, of instructing and edifying the church, and foretelling future events.……….."They shall fail".

"There be tongues" - The power of speaking foreign languages.

They shall cease!

"whether there be knowledge- it shall vanish away".
that is, the word of knowledge, peculiarly given by the spirit to some persons only; or that peculiar gift of knowledge of divine things. That is why God gave us the completed Bible my brother.

I did not say those things my brother. The only reason you reject those words is because YOU want to go on speaking in tongues. As I have said...….Please go right ahead and do so.

You had the same Bible I have and you have read the same words I have read and the difference is that I believe them and you reject them. So, you did not need my approval the many years ago when you began to speak in tongues and you surely do not need it now. So enjoy!!!!!!

Oh you are a wily one aren't you

When it suits you prophecy is the power to speak as a prophet, then you say oooh nooo prophecy simply means to teach, you use the same scriptures, same words.

What that scripture doesn't say is that prophecy, knowledge or tongues have passed away or ceased.

Yes we have the same bible, the canon is complete, nothing can be added to it.

But YOU have added to it

For that bible exhorts us to earnestly covet the gifts, especially that we may prophesy. It stands there in the bible which you hold as that perfect which Paul said was to come.

Paul says in that same scripture concerning knowledge "for now we see as through a glass darkly" when the perfect has come Paul says we shall see perfectly, will know perfectly and be known perfectly.

So do you have perfect knowledge? do you have perfect vision?

 

[Billy Evmur]

That prophesy was NOT the one that God uses today, as they were giving words of exhortation, guidance, direction in the time when there was no complotted word of the lord, but we now have the complete and sure word of prophecy from the lord, called the scriptures. What do you need to add to what was recorded down there for us?

Once again that perfect completed word of the Lord exhorts us to "earnestly covet the gifts, especially that we may prophesy"

That's where we got it from.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The WoF elevate teachers and so called Apostles and prophets to be on the level of the NT ones, and none can ever claim that status!

Who? I don't know why you would listen to them...I don't....you might learn about Pentecostalism better by visiting one of their assemblies.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Since you are resorting to false accusations, I take it you're done talking, since you cannot account for even one miraculous event you have experienced.
TD

You have a bible as I do, if you won't believe that even if I were to testify of resurrections you would not believe.

 

[tdidymas]

You have a bible as I do, if you won't believe that even if I were to testify of resurrections you would not believe.

What you say is simply ludicrous. I believe the Bible, not you. From what I can figure, the context of scripture is not your authority. Your authority is your personal subjective experience in which you learned to judge it by what others told you, and it is that judgment that you impose on the scripture. The first 25 years of my Christian life was in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, so I think I know what I am talking about. It is the typical mode of interpretation in those churches, and that interpretation is used to propagate the movement's agenda. That manner of interpretation is used to justify the claim that typical modern day glossalalia is a gift of the Spirit. But it can't be, because it is not miraculous, whereas the Biblical tongues were miraculous.

I'm not saying that what those churches teach is all wrong, as I am not in any way claiming that Pentecostals or Charismatics are not brothers and sisters in Christ. What I do claim is that many things taught in those churches is wrong, and their teaching about the gifts of the Spirit being in common operation today, and that every Christian ought to be practicing them - that this is wrong teaching, and whoever believes that theory simply has not dug deep enough into scripture.
TD

 

[Billy Evmur]

What you say is simply ludicrous. I believe the Bible, not you. From what I can figure, the context of scripture is not your authority. Your authority is your personal subjective experience in which you learned to judge it by what others told you, and it is that judgment that you impose on the scripture. The first 25 years of my Christian life was in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, so I think I know what I am talking about. It is the typical mode of interpretation in those churches, and that interpretation is used to propagate the movement's agenda. That manner of interpretation is used to justify the claim that typical modern day glossalalia is a gift of the Spirit. But it can't be, because it is not miraculous, whereas the Biblical tongues were miraculous.

I'm not saying that what those churches teach is all wrong, as I am not in any way claiming that Pentecostals or Charismatics are not brothers and sisters in Christ. What I do claim is that many things taught in those churches is wrong, and their teaching about the gifts of the Spirit being in common operation today, and that every Christian ought to be practicing them - that this is wrong teaching, and whoever believes that theory simply has not dug deep enough into scripture.
TD

This is ALL about you, your experiences, your views

not a scrap of scripture support.

If you got it wrong for 25 years why are you so sure you got it right now?

My views are based first and foremost upon what I received, the baptism in the Holy Ghost according to scripture with accompanying gifts. Then I looked for a church fellowship that was in agreement with what I received.

So 1st came the experience
2nd came the doctrine
3rd came the fellowship.

 

[Major1]

Rediculous, you saying a woman can only teach if she is a virgin....

NO, I did not say that and once again you show a real lack of understanding.

I did not say anything whatsoever.

Paul wrote those words in the Scriptures under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

1 Timothy 2:11-12......
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent".

Is that what PAUL wrote or is it not??????

Now the question must be WHY did he write that.

While the apostle was encouraging the teaching of women (even though traditionally they weren't given that opportunity), he restricted them from authoritatively sharing their learning with men.

This is IMO another one of those Scriptures where we MUST consider the times and situation in which those words were written.

IMO, was addressing specific circumstances in Ephesus, because in other Scriptures, Paul actually recognizes several women who were teaching and evangelizing alongside him as seen in Romans 16:1-3 and Philippians 4:2-3.

But Again, WHY? With a little study we can learn that because women in Ephesus at this time were uneducated and secluded, Paul was warning that they could be misled by the false teachers trying to lure new Christians away from the church Paul wanted to establish. Those circumstances don't necessarily exist today.

 

[Major1]

What you say is simply ludicrous. I believe the Bible, not you. From what I can figure, the context of scripture is not your authority. Your authority is your personal subjective experience in which you learned to judge it by what others told you, and it is that judgment that you impose on the scripture. The first 25 years of my Christian life was in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, so I think I know what I am talking about. It is the typical mode of interpretation in those churches, and that interpretation is used to propagate the movement's agenda. That manner of interpretation is used to justify the claim that typical modern day glossalalia is a gift of the Spirit. But it can't be, because it is not miraculous, whereas the Biblical tongues were miraculous.

I'm not saying that what those churches teach is all wrong, as I am not in any way claiming that Pentecostals or Charismatics are not brothers and sisters in Christ. What I do claim is that many things taught in those churches is wrong, and their teaching about the gifts of the Spirit being in common operation today, and that every Christian ought to be practicing them - that this is wrong teaching, and whoever believes that theory simply has not dug deep enough into scripture.
TD

Agreed.

True miracles must be subject to sense perception. The water that Jesus turned into wine could be tasted (John 2:9); Thomas could feel the prints in the hands of the resurrected Christ (John 20:27), and the restored ear of the high priest’s servant could be seen (Luke 22:51). The wonders of the Bible were objective demonstrations, not subjective speculations!

Actual signs must be independent of secondary causes. By this we mean there must be no possible way to explain the miracle in a natural fashion.

One is reminded of the boy whose cat gave birth to kittens. When the lad noticed the kittens were blind, he prayed for them. Sure enough, in about nine days they all could see! Hardly a miracle.

 

[Major1]

Oh you are a wily one aren't you

When it suits you prophecy is the power to speak as a prophet, then you say oooh nooo prophecy simply means to teach, you use the same scriptures, same words.

What that scripture doesn't say is that prophecy, knowledge or tongues have passed away or ceased.

Yes we have the same bible, the canon is complete, nothing can be added to it.

But YOU have added to it

For that bible exhorts us to earnestly covet the gifts, especially that we may prophesy. It stands there in the bible which you hold as that perfect which Paul said was to come.

Paul says in that same scripture concerning knowledge "for now we see as through a glass darkly" when the perfect has come Paul says we shall see perfectly, will know perfectly and be known perfectly.

So do you have perfect knowledge? do you have perfect vision?

You said of me...…….
"Oh you are a wily one aren't you."

I am sorry but that is causing me to LOL. I am just an old country boy who reads the Bible as it is written and was very blessed to sit under some really good Bible professors.

Please read comment #285 again, if you missed it of course the 1st time.

You asked me………….
"So do you have perfect knowledge? do you have perfect vision? "

YES.
Between my brother and myself, we know the answer to any question you want to ask.

NO. I wear glasses because of "Amblyopia" from birth in one eye.

 

[Major1]

This is ALL about you, your experiences, your views

not a scrap of scripture support.

If you got it wrong for 25 years why are you so sure you got it right now?

My views are based first and foremost upon what I received, the baptism in the Holy Ghost according to scripture with accompanying gifts. Then I looked for a church fellowship that was in agreement with what I received.

So 1st came the experience
2nd came the doctrine
3rd came the fellowship.

I wish Bible understanding had slipped in there for you at some time.

 

[Major1]

You have a bible as I do, if you won't believe that even if I were to testify of resurrections you would not believe.

Luke 16:31.......
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"