What is the Scriptural Basis for Cessationism?

[YeshuaFan]

No my friend, you are incorrect---again.

I love to correct do exegesis of the Word of God WITHOUT any twisting and bending.

The ONLY reason YOU said that is because you do not agree with my understanding and YOU want to continue in speaking in tongues. Please do so!!!!!!!!!
However, you can not do so and pretend that it is what the Scriptures say.

1 Corinthians 14:3 ACTUALLY says...………...
"....he that prophesies speaks to men for edification, exhortation, and comfort."

As YOU have personally done just several times on this site by bragging about what you think you have as a gift.

Now when you read the Scriptures posted from 1 Corinthians 14, please notice that NO mention of "foretelling the future' is even mentioned here.

YES - it is true that the prophets of Old Test. economy did in fact foretell future events by inspiration of the Holy Spirit - the MAJORITY of their ministry consisted of preaching and teaching the Word of God.

If one takes the time to examine the Word of God - we can easily discover this to be true. MOST of the messages delivered to the people by the Old Testament Prophets were NOT 'predictions of the future" - but rather messages of:
• Edification: (building up of the people by way instruction in righteousness)
• Exhortation: (Warnings and Admonishment to Obey the Lord)
• Comfort: (Encouragement to be strong and courageous and to Trust in the Lord)

Most people however believe that the job of the prophet is to "foretell the future" - yet a simple study of the old Testament prophets will show that to be only a small portion of their ministry. Yet as we see in 1 Corinthians 14:3 - prophesy today consists primarily of "speaking to men for edification, exhortation, and comfort."

May I also say to you that the Holy Spirit will NEVER speak anything that is contrary to the Word of God as already revealed in the Scriptures.

Now why is there so much confusion on such a simple thing????
The reason why there is so much confusion and error about this is because too many have run off spouting nonsense out of their heads - instead of by inspiration of the Holy Ghost!

This has led to false doctrines, divisions in the church, arguments, and strife - not to mention false 'predictions' of Christ's return, erroneous 'words from God' as to what the 'so-called' prophet tells a person to do - etc! All because instead of being moved by the Holy Ghost - they blabber out of their heads!

To prophesy today would be the Minister in the pulpit taking the scriptures and rightly dividing it and expounding its principles to us for today!
And the modern day Charismatic movement has indeed caused much division and introduced some rank heresies into the Church!

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Again, with all due respect, I can not agree with you.

The verse which refer to Christ 2nd Coming as like lightning and that He will be seen from east to west is out of CONTEXT and has nothing to do with "Continueism/Cessationism."

I appreciate your efforts to try and explain your wishes but my dear friend, what is IS and not what we want it to be. As for Paul's reference to seeing darkly now and lighter in the future is again taken out of CONTEXT and misapplied....IMO.

You are correct in that we can not see the glory of God today and we will when we see HIM. However the important element for us is that now, because of His merciful revelation of Himself to us, IN HIS WRITTEN WORD we do see a portion of His eternal glory, even if imperfectly. Others are totally blind to even the part we see imperfectly.

I think that the correct thinking here is that we as believers are in the process of becoming just like Him, and we will share His very life in glory, as 1 John 3:2 assures us:...…..
"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

Now, can you quote ONE single BIBLE Scripture that supports Apostolic Continueisim?

I quoted Jesus as lightning, shining fro east to west in context of the perfect coming, being the light/revelation, better than prophecy or the Bible to go together with 1 Corinthians 13.

The parts about lighter and darker, in a mirror dimly, the light at Jesu return, being known fully, are all in the same chapter and are then in context. I see word striving here in regards to "perfect", "teleios".

Continuism is old doctrine, the way it was, new ideas are not based in history. You on the same token will not find Trinity in the Bible. There is mention of Junias and Adronicus apostles before Paul. And Paul succeeds after Peter and the 12. Timothy after Paul. After Timothy the teaching of laying on of hands and sharing the Spirit goes on. There is no verse that suggests there is a cease of these things and they go on until Christ returns. For commands like earnestly seek prophecy, are not nullified by man made teachings in Sola Scriptura. Not all users of it hold there is a cease either.

Testimonies are Biblical.

I think Peter mentions a Clement, who later writes Clement's letter to the Corinthians, still on record and not in the Bible because he did not know Jesus first hand.

Prophecy is described in context of Corinthians as revealing non believers secret thoughts, hearts laid bare. Ch 14.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

To prophesy today would be the Minister in the pulpit taking the scriptures and rightly dividing it and expounding its principles to us for today!
And the modern day Charismatic movement has indeed caused much division and introduced some rank heresies into the Church!

Prophecy from Greek, as in Strong's Numbers in use in Corinthians is not as you describe. Nor in context.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I am not sure what you are trying to say but I am NOT an anti-Trinitarian.

The Holy Spirit is the 3rd PERSON of the Trinity and HE is just as much God as is the Father and the Son.

While the Greek Grammar does indeed have that neuter aspect to the Spirit, Jesus also made it quite clear that the Holy Spirit is a "He"

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

While the Greek Grammar does indeed have that neuter aspect to the Spirit, Jesus also made it quite clear that the Holy Spirit is a "He"

And the living water, is, he or it, YeshuaFan?

 

[YeshuaFan]

And the living water, is, he or it, YeshuaFan?

The Holy Sprit is a he, and living water is a term of speech used to describe Him in us!

 

[tdidymas]

Hi

It is a big mistake to look at the church and assume that this is what the church should be. If you had walked into a church in the 14th century you would feel yourself I an alien world, almost nothing was what the church is meant to be.

It is a modern mistake also to think that the western church is still in the vanguard of what God is doing in the world today, we are actually in the backwaters.

If God does a thing once and it is beyond question God then the case is proved. If it can be shown that in one instance the Holy Spirit has been poured out in apostolic power today then the doctrine is proved.

It proves nothing at all. Most of the miracles of the Bible were a one-time event, or meant for a specific time in history. We don't see the parting of waters today, we don't see anyone walking on the water today, we don't see superhuman strength, we don't see people speaking intelligent languages they didn't learn naturally. Your theory that "God does a thing once, and therefore it is for the church today" is bogus.

So then, it appears to me that you acknowledge the lack of evidence of the common miracles claimed by the modern Pentecostal movement, since you theorize about what the church "should" look like today. But I am not talking about theory, I'm talking about what actually is. If God wants to perform miracles, He is able to do it without your help or anyone's help, and He is also able to do it through people, since He is able to speak to people in such a way that they can understand Him.

Case in point is when Peter raised up the lame man at the temple gate. It was not his theory that God could do such a thing that initiated his action. It was the Holy Spirit moving in him that initiated the action. Therefore if anyone tries to convince me to "believe" that God is doing such things today in a common and prolific manner, just because they theorize that this is the way the church "ought" to be, then I'm not convinced. Neither am I convinced that anyone who says "speak, but not in English" is inducing a gift of the Spirit.
TD

 

[Major1]

And the living water, is, he or it, YeshuaFan?

John 3:5



We need to consider that Jesus also uses water in a figurative sense in John 3:5. To what, then, does He refer? John 4:13-14 gives us a clue. Jesus says to the woman at the well: "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." This water that Jesus speaks of can in no way be literal water.

expands on this:

John 7:37-39 has the explanation………….
"On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

Here Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as the living water.

These verses clarify that the Bible uses water as a figure of the Holy Spirit both in terms of its cleansing properties and as a source of power. Could Jesus be using water in this way in John 3:5?

The Bible frequently mentions the Word of God in conjunction with birth and life.

Psl. 118:50 reads, ……..
"This is my comfort in my afflication, for Your word has given me life."

Paul adds in 1 Cor. 4:15...……..
"For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."

The gospel is composed of words. We are instructed in James 1:18 ……
"Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth."

Peter makes a remarkable declaration in 1 Peter 1:22-23...…….
"Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God".

 

[Major1]

I quoted Jesus as lightning, shining fro east to west in context of the perfect coming, being the light/revelation, better than prophecy or the Bible to go together with 1 Corinthians 13.

The parts about lighter and darker, in a mirror dimly, the light at Jesu return, being known fully, are all in the same chapter and are then in context. I see word striving here in regards to "perfect", "teleios".

Continuism is old doctrine, the way it was, new ideas are not based in history. You on the same token will not find Trinity in the Bible. There is mention of Junias and Adronicus apostles before Paul. And Paul succeeds after Peter and the 12. Timothy after Paul. After Timothy the teaching of laying on of hands and sharing the Spirit goes on. There is no verse that suggests there is a cease of these things and they go on until Christ returns. For commands like earnestly seek prophecy, are not nullified by man made teachings in Sola Scriptura. Not all users of it hold there is a cease either.

Testimonies are Biblical.

I think Peter mentions a Clement, who later writes Clement's letter to the Corinthians, still on record and not in the Bible because he did not know Jesus first hand.

Prophecy is described in context of Corinthians as revealing non believers secret thoughts, hearts laid bare. Ch 14.

You are correct my friend. The word Trinity is not in the Bible.
Neither is the word "CONTINUISM" of the Sign Gifts.

However the word CEASE is.

1 Corinthians 13:8...…………
"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away."

The only question is not IF they will but when did they.

It is only said here in 1 Corinthians that "tongues SHALL cease"; but there is no reason whatever to believe that this least of all supernatural gifts should have survived when supernatural knowledge, divine prophecy, and the gift of miracle-working faith perished; which, of course, they did.

Any authentic speaking in tongues is here restricted by the apostle Paul to the age of miracles; and when that ceased, the tongues ceased, except for the affectations of those who indulge, from whatever motives, the counterfeit "tongues" of the present day.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It proves nothing at all. Most of the miracles of the Bible were a one-time event, or meant for a specific time in history. We don't see the parting of waters today, we don't see anyone walking on the water today, we don't see superhuman strength, we don't see people speaking intelligent languages they didn't learn naturally. Your theory that "God does a thing once, and therefore it is for the church today" is bogus.

So then, it appears to me that you acknowledge the lack of evidence of the common miracles claimed by the modern Pentecostal movement, since you theorize about what the church "should" look like today. But I am not talking about theory, I'm talking about what actually is. If God wants to perform miracles, He is able to do it without your help or anyone's help, and He is also able to do it through people, since He is able to speak to people in such a way that they can understand Him.

Case in point is when Peter raised up the lame man at the temple gate. It was not his theory that God could do such a thing that initiated his action. It was the Holy Spirit moving in him that initiated the action. Therefore if anyone tries to convince me to "believe" that God is doing such things today in a common and prolific manner, just because they theorize that this is the way the church "ought" to be, then I'm not convinced. Neither am I convinced that anyone who says "speak, but not in English" is inducing a gift of the Spirit.
TD

When Peter raised up the lame man by the gate, he was reproducing the works of Christ. The letter to the Corinthians clearly says there is a tool, a gift of the Spirit to use, for salvations and edification. And the way the church ought to be is not a theory, but Christ command, to go to the ends of the world and make disciples. It was stopped for a long time. This has delayed Christ return. Christ Jesus also wants all the world to hear the Gospel and turn or have the opportunity to, only then does he return. And only then the gifts are no longer useful. This delay is grievous, wars, slavery, famine, plague, persist until Christ returns.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

You are correct my friend. The word Trinity is not in the Bible.
Neither is the word "CONTINUISM" of the Sign Gifts.

However the word CEASE is.

1 Corinthians 13:8...…………
"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away."

The only question is not IF they will but when did they.

It is only said here in 1 Corinthians that "tongues SHALL cease"; but there is no reason whatever to believe that this least of all supernatural gifts should have survived when supernatural knowledge, divine prophecy, and the gift of miracle-working faith perished; which, of course, they did.

Any authentic speaking in tongues is here restricted by the apostle Paul to the age of miracles; and when that ceased, the tongues ceased, except for the affectations of those who indulge, from whatever motives, the counterfeit "tongues" of the present day.

No, we have gone over this before, the gifts do not cease until something essentially better and universal comes. The whole Bible is not better or universal.

The gifts never perish, the Spirit never dies.

 

[YeshuaFan]

It proves nothing at all. Most of the miracles of the Bible were a one-time event, or meant for a specific time in history. We don't see the parting of waters today, we don't see anyone walking on the water today, we don't see superhuman strength, we don't see people speaking intelligent languages they didn't learn naturally. Your theory that "God does a thing once, and therefore it is for the church today" is bogus.

So then, it appears to me that you acknowledge the lack of evidence of the common miracles claimed by the modern Pentecostal movement, since you theorize about what the church "should" look like today. But I am not talking about theory, I'm talking about what actually is. If God wants to perform miracles, He is able to do it without your help or anyone's help, and He is also able to do it through people, since He is able to speak to people in such a way that they can understand Him.

Case in point is when Peter raised up the lame man at the temple gate. It was not his theory that God could do such a thing that initiated his action. It was the Holy Spirit moving in him that initiated the action. Therefore if anyone tries to convince me to "believe" that God is doing such things today in a common and prolific manner, just because they theorize that this is the way the church "ought" to be, then I'm not convinced. Neither am I convinced that anyone who says "speak, but not in English" is inducing a gift of the Spirit.
TD

Much of the so called Charismatic Movement exults humans and feeds spiritual pride, and also a feeling of we have secret knowledge revealed to us by God. Almost like Gnosticism reborn again, and garbed in modern terminology!

 

[tdidymas]

When Peter raised up the lame man by the gate, he was reproducing the works of Christ. The letter to the Corinthians clearly says there is a tool, a gift of the Spirit to use, for salvations and edification. And the way the church ought to be is not a theory, but Christ command, to go to the ends of the world and make disciples. It was stopped for a long time. This has delayed Christ return. Christ Jesus also wants all the world to hear the Gospel and turn or have the opportunity to, only then does he return. And only then the gifts are no longer useful. This delay is grievous, wars, slavery, famine, plague, persist until Christ returns.

The Bible says that the preaching of the gospel is what makes disciples. The performance of miracles was for the authentication of the gospel, since they did not have the NT at the time (Heb. 2:4). I know that many people want to see miracles, just as Jesus said "you people won't believe unless you see miracles." Even I would like to see miracles, but God has His own plan.
TD

 

[Billy Evmur]

It proves nothing at all. Most of the miracles of the Bible were a one-time event, or meant for a specific time in history. We don't see the parting of waters today, we don't see anyone walking on the water today, we don't see superhuman strength, we don't see people speaking intelligent languages they didn't learn naturally. Your theory that "God does a thing once, and therefore it is for the church today" is bogus.

So then, it appears to me that you acknowledge the lack of evidence of the common miracles claimed by the modern Pentecostal movement, since you theorize about what the church "should" look like today. But I am not talking about theory, I'm talking about what actually is. If God wants to perform miracles, He is able to do it without your help or anyone's help, and He is also able to do it through people, since He is able to speak to people in such a way that they can understand Him.

Case in point is when Peter raised up the lame man at the temple gate. It was not his theory that God could do such a thing that initiated his action. It was the Holy Spirit moving in him that initiated the action. Therefore if anyone tries to convince me to "believe" that God is doing such things today in a common and prolific manner, just because they theorize that this is the way the church "ought" to be, then I'm not convinced. Neither am I convinced that anyone who says "speak, but not in English" is inducing a gift of the Spirit.
TD

And what did Peter say? "silver and gold have I none but such as I have give I unto thee, in the name of Jesus Christ rise and walk."

Have we not Jesus Christ and the name of Jesus Christ to give folks today?

"Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever"

This is the very scripture that God used to awaken my heart over 40 years ago, aw I had seen that quote many, many times in magazine report I had been receiving telling of amazing miracles. It is very simple isn't it? but I never understood it, I used to stare at it, "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever" what could it mean?

But I didn't BELIEVE those miracle reports

Lepers cleansed? blind receiving their sight? crippled beggars being healed? not just one or two but by the score.

Of course it was American, we know that Americans are very excitable we know that they are given to exaggeration [not to say a little bragadociousness] they certainly know how to egg the pudding. I didn't think they were lying, just getting a little carried away.

But I loved the message, Christ IN you. The life of Christ in the soul.

But one day I read a 2 page spread story of a poor man in Puerto Rico who had been hopelessly crippled who got up and walked after prayer....and suddenly a silent alarm bell was ring inside me, "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever"

I understood it. If people come to Him today as they came to Him in the bible, they will certainly receive what the people back then received. But people today do NOT come to Him like that do they. I came to Him for pardon and new life through that gospel witness...and I got it.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Those gifts are still in the church today.

It is not will He part the sea to save His people from Pharoah or will He walk on water to rescue the sinking disciples from the wind and waves. It is that He will hear the cry of people in distress and deliver them.

He is the Saviour, the Deliverer, He has not changed, but you have to call upon Him and you have to BELIEVE on Him.

He has not changed, the church has changed.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The vast majority of so called Apostolic power is shown to be either frauds or deceptions, and the basic truth still remains that MUCH of the fridge charismatic movement as in Wof and dominion/prosperity hold to doctrines not taught in the Bible!

I've got news for you. There were frauds and deceptions in apostolic times, you only have to read the epistles to see that.

The devil becomes very active in times of revival...it has the effect of sorting out those who will cling close as they can to God's word and neither veer to the right or the left.

There could be no fraud unless there were first that precious thing to counterfeit. Will you reject gold and silver because people play with tinsel?

 

[Billy Evmur]

The Bible says that the preaching of the gospel is what makes disciples. The performance of miracles was for the authentication of the gospel, since they did not have the NT at the time (Heb. 2:4). I know that many people want to see miracles, just as Jesus said "you people won't believe unless you see miracles." Even I would like to see miracles, but God has His own plan.
TD

YOU won't believe unless you see miracles, I believed before I saw, since then I have seen and received many.

The Pharisees saw but they simply hated Him the more.

 

[Billy Evmur]

No my friend, you are incorrect---again.

I love to correct do exegesis of the Word of God WITHOUT any twisting and bending.

The ONLY reason YOU said that is because you do not agree with my understanding and YOU want to continue in speaking in tongues. Please do so!!!!!!!!!
However, you can not do so and pretend that it is what the Scriptures say.

1 Corinthians 14:3 ACTUALLY says...………...
"....he that prophesies speaks to men for edification, exhortation, and comfort."

As YOU have personally done just several times on this site by bragging about what you think you have as a gift.

Now when you read the Scriptures posted from 1 Corinthians 14, please notice that NO mention of "foretelling the future' is even mentioned here.

YES - it is true that the prophets of Old Test. economy did in fact foretell future events by inspiration of the Holy Spirit - the MAJORITY of their ministry consisted of preaching and teaching the Word of God.

If one takes the time to examine the Word of God - we can easily discover this to be true. MOST of the messages delivered to the people by the Old Testament Prophets were NOT 'predictions of the future" - but rather messages of:
• Edification: (building up of the people by way instruction in righteousness)
• Exhortation: (Warnings and Admonishment to Obey the Lord)
• Comfort: (Encouragement to be strong and courageous and to Trust in the Lord)

Most people however believe that the job of the prophet is to "foretell the future" - yet a simple study of the old Testament prophets will show that to be only a small portion of their ministry. Yet as we see in 1 Corinthians 14:3 - prophesy today consists primarily of "speaking to men for edification, exhortation, and comfort."

May I also say to you that the Holy Spirit will NEVER speak anything that is contrary to the Word of God as already revealed in the Scriptures.

Now why is there so much confusion on such a simple thing????
The reason why there is so much confusion and error about this is because too many have run off spouting nonsense out of their heads - instead of by inspiration of the Holy Ghost!

This has led to false doctrines, divisions in the church, arguments, and strife - not to mention false 'predictions' of Christ's return, erroneous 'words from God' as to what the 'so-called' prophet tells a person to do - etc! All because instead of being moved by the Holy Ghost - they blabber out of their heads!

The full quote from Cor 14 is "If a man speaks in a tongue he speaks to God....he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself...I want you all to speak in tongues"

When you jump over these and only quote the part that pertains to prophecy it is another way of bending the scripture to fit your doctrine.

You want to prove that we still have the gift of prophecy [by whatever interpretation you put upon it] but we no longer have the gift of tongues...that is your doctrine.

Nobody can show you where prophecy has been withdrawn, nobody can show you where tongues have been withdrawn.

Now I fully agree that prophecy is preaching and teaching as well as foretelling.

A sermon

A sermon is prophesying ...right?

Have you never read or heard a FALSE sermon apart from Pentecostal or charismatic churches?

There is all manner of RUBBISH being preached in churches this very day across America, in Evangelical churches. Let alone the Mormons the JWs and the myriad cults.

You talk about false counsels as if that only happened in Pentecostal churches.

My rule has ALWAYS been that God will never speak contrary to scripture...always, always.

You are teaching contrary to scripture when you say the gifts are no longer in operation.

But when I hear someone say "the Lord told them He is going to kill all the homos in America" I know it is counter to scripture. So I judge what I hear. If such a saying was put to any assembly of God's people for examination it would not pass muster.

We have a personal responsibility to the Lord to believe His word, and cling closely to it.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Incidentally, someone moaned about swooning. It was quite common during the 18th century Methodist revival...I never heard anyone suggest that it was anything than God's power.

 

[tdidymas]

YOU won't believe unless you see miracles, I believed before I saw, since then I have seen and received many.

The Pharisees saw but they simply hated Him the more.

Can you tell me what miracles you have received?
TD

 

[Major1]

YOU won't believe unless you see miracles, I believed before I saw, since then I have seen and received many.

The Pharisees saw but they simply hated Him the more.

ALL men will believe what they want to believe my brother.

But we are not saved by miracles or faith healers or tongue talkers.