What is the Scriptural Basis for Cessationism?

[ToBeLoved]

No Apostle taught that the gifts would not remain in the church until that which is perfect is come when we no longer see as through a glass darkly.

Well that’s not true.

Obviously, Paul was an apostle and Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13 stating that tongues and other gifts would cease.

Paul also wrote 1 Timothy.

 

[tdidymas]

Just looking at the scriptures you quote for eg "if anyone goes beyond and does not adhere to our teaching"

But you don't...

You are trying to say that because I don't believe in the modern P/C movement dogma and agenda, that I don't adhere to the teaching of the apostles, but this is a false premise. I showed clearly some of the reasons why the modern P/C (Pentecostal/Charismatic) movement does not adhere to NT teaching, but you have not shown that I fit the same category other than your personal subjective opinion.

In addition, you completely missed (or ignored) the point I was making in quoting that verse. It is the typical mode of interpretation that you and your cronies do. You come to false conclusions about everything you read, including my posts and scripture. The reason I quoted that verse was to point out that NT doctrine is important above experience and fellowship, yet it appears you missed or ignored it because of your agenda.

John was baptised in the Holy Spirit and ministered the gifts of the Holy Spirit along with Peter.

Here again you miss the point, because like the P/C movement you assume that anyone who has not had the P/C experience is not baptized in the Spirit. This tells of your ignorance of NT teaching, since the Bible clearly states that all Christians are baptized in the Spirit, since we are baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, and that anyone not having the Spirit is "none of His." The experience of being baptized into Christ is the same experience of being baptized in the Spirit, since we also are made to drink of the same Spirit. It is merely different words to describe the same experience. Anyone who is led by the Spirit is a child of God, and has been baptized in the Spirit. Being born again is a spiritual baptism. Just because you imagine that your P/C experience is the same as that of Acts 2 doesn't make it so.

No Apostle taught that the gifts would not remain in the church until that which is perfect is come when we no longer see as through a glass darkly.

It is silly to suggest that the canon of scripture is that which is perfect for Paul was the writer of most of it, his writings are not more perfect than his actual words as he expounded those doctrines. And his doctrine is that we should covet the gifts.

That is the complete canon of scripture, there IS no word about no longer earnestly coveting the higher gifts.

I never said this. I think you assume that I hold to the same interpretation of that verse in 1 Cor. 13 as others do, but I don't. So here again, you impose an idea on what I wrote just as you impose ideas into the scripture, which is the typical mode of interpretation of the P/C movement.

If you say there is a doctrine exhorting us to not earnestly covet the gifts you are going beyond what the scripture says, you are not abiding in the apostle's doctrine.

I never said this, but because of your agenda, I think you are hoping this statement to be true.

So, go ahead and earnestly desire something that God is not commonly giving at this time. As I said before, the P/C movement imagines that their practices of what they call prophecy and tongues is the same thing as what 1 Cor. calls "gifts of the Spirit," but I say it is not, for the reasons I cited.

Further, I challenge you to support your claims by scripture, which I have done before. Except you apparently are refusing to do so, because every time you do, I show from the context of scripture that your idea is false. And now all you can resort to is false accusations, or false conclusions about what I say.

SOME of it you abide in, mebbe the most essential parts as far as your personal salvation is concerned...I am not saying anybody is not saved, I am not even saying I would not invite you into my house. But John was baptised with the Holy Ghost and ministered in signs and wonders.

I assume you are talking about the John who wrote the above verses. Yes, what you say is true here. But that doesn't support the modern P/C claims. I showed that those claims are false by reason of the context of scripture. If there is anything you are not clear about in this matter, then ask specific questions. I think if you just keep on making false accusations and coming to false conclusions, I might just let you have the last word and stop responding.

The same applies to the other scriptures you quote. For your faith is not the one which was once delivered to the saints...it has enough to save the soul but it lacks the baptism of the Holy Spirit with accompanying gifts.

Your P/C jargon doesn't sway me. I already said that the first 25 years of my Christian walk was in the P/C movement. I was just as deceived as anyone in that movement. I spoke the same "tongues," had the same kind of experiences, believed the same dogmas, and practiced the same religious practices as they. But God led me out of it, in which I could tell you the reasons, but you would not accept those reasons as me being led by the Spirit, given your current attitude.

You talk alot...ALOT about interpreting scripture but Peter said "no scripture ever came by private interpretation of man" You don't need to puzzle and fret with scripture...just read it and believe what it says...it is not written for scholars, it is written for simple folks to read and understand.

Everything you read and experience is interpreted in your mind, and that interpretation is based on what you think you know. But the verse I quoted was not for the purpose you are using it here. That verse means that scripture is God's word, not man's word, and I was quoting it to show that the doctrines of scripture take precedence over experiences, to show you that your order is mixed up, and this is why you misinterpret scripture.

So if you think that your interpretation (which is your opinion, based on the P/C movement's claims) is as much the word of God as the scripture itself, then you are mistaken and in error.

And the Holy Spirit is WELL able to make you understand it.

If you are too lazy to spend the time and effort to examine it carefully, I say that the Holy Spirit will not give you the understanding, because He is not an enabler of laziness. All the apostles became scholars of the scripture in the 20-30 years between Jesus' resurrection and when the NT was written.
TD

 

[Major1]

I would politely suggest that you didn't

I would politely suggest that you looked around you and decided upon that basis that Pentecostalism is wrong....

Billy, after reading your posts it is evident that you do not do a lot of Bible study.

One of the classic errors of well meaning but un-scriptural people is their habit of pulling a Scripture completely out of its CONTEXT and applying it to what they what they already believe.

 

[Billy Evmur]

You are trying to say that because I don't believe in the modern P/C movement dogma and agenda, that I don't adhere to the teaching of the apostles, but this is a false premise. I showed clearly some of the reasons why the modern P/C (Pentecostal/Charismatic) movement does not adhere to NT teaching, but you have not shown that I fit the same category other than your personal subjective opinion.

In addition, you completely missed (or ignored) the point I was making in quoting that verse. It is the typical mode of interpretation that you and your cronies do. You come to false conclusions about everything you read, including my posts and scripture. The reason I quoted that verse was to point out that NT doctrine is important above experience and fellowship, yet it appears you missed or ignored it because of your agenda.


Here again you miss the point, because like the P/C movement you assume that anyone who has not had the P/C experience is not baptized in the Spirit. This tells of your ignorance of NT teaching, since the Bible clearly states that all Christians are baptized in the Spirit, since we are baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, and that anyone not having the Spirit is "none of His." The experience of being baptized into Christ is the same experience of being baptized in the Spirit, since we also are made to drink of the same Spirit. It is merely different words to describe the same experience. Anyone who is led by the Spirit is a child of God, and has been baptized in the Spirit. Being born again is a spiritual baptism. Just because you imagine that your P/C experience is the same as that of Acts 2 doesn't make it so.


I never said this. I think you assume that I hold to the same interpretation of that verse in 1 Cor. 13 as others do, but I don't. So here again, you impose an idea on what I wrote just as you impose ideas into the scripture, which is the typical mode of interpretation of the P/C movement.



I never said this, but because of your agenda, I think you are hoping this statement to be true.

So, go ahead and earnestly desire something that God is not commonly giving at this time. As I said before, the P/C movement imagines that their practices of what they call prophecy and tongues is the same thing as what 1 Cor. calls "gifts of the Spirit," but I say it is not, for the reasons I cited.

Further, I challenge you to support your claims by scripture, which I have done before. Except you apparently are refusing to do so, because every time you do, I show from the context of scripture that your idea is false. And now all you can resort to is false accusations, or false conclusions about what I say.


I assume you are talking about the John who wrote the above verses. Yes, what you say is true here. But that doesn't support the modern P/C claims. I showed that those claims are false by reason of the context of scripture. If there is anything you are not clear about in this matter, then ask specific questions. I think if you just keep on making false accusations and coming to false conclusions, I might just let you have the last word and stop responding.



Your P/C jargon doesn't sway me. I already said that the first 25 years of my Christian walk was in the P/C movement. I was just as deceived as anyone in that movement. I spoke the same "tongues," had the same kind of experiences, believed the same dogmas, and practiced the same religious practices as they. But God led me out of it, in which I could tell you the reasons, but you would not accept those reasons as me being led by the Spirit, given your current attitude.




Everything you read and experience is interpreted in your mind, and that interpretation is based on what you think you know. But the verse I quoted was not for the purpose you are using it here. That verse means that scripture is God's word, not man's word, and I was quoting it to show that the doctrines of scripture take precedence over experiences, to show you that your order is mixed up, and this is why you misinterpret scripture.

So if you think that your interpretation (which is your opinion, based on the P/C movement's claims) is as much the word of God as the scripture itself, then you are mistaken and in error.


If you are too lazy to spend the time and effort to examine it carefully, I say that the Holy Spirit will not give you the understanding, because He is not an enabler of laziness. All the apostles became scholars of the scripture in the 20-30 years between Jesus' resurrection and when the NT was written.
TD

It seems you are allowed to call me lazy but if I say you are an unbeliever [in the matter we are discussing] that is considered apprehensible.

Being baptised into Christ is not the same as being baptised with the Holy Spirit. This has been recognised throughout church history.

You only have to read Spurgeon to see that in his day as has ever been the case actually only a comparable few Christians of his day were walking in the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

You only have to read what condition the church was in before the great awakening of the 18th century when the Wesleys took Britain and America by storm. You only have to consider what state the church was in before the reformation, read the writings of the Puritans, Luther and you see quite clearly that not all are equal in power and blessing. Even the Catholics spoke [and still do] those who have a living faith and those who do not.

I consider Spurgeon to have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, and he did manifest gifts.

Moreover I see that throughout the whole of church history the gifts have been manifested, in the word of knowledge, wisdom, discerning of spirits etc even in prophetic utterance.

This is an argument about the gifts which have not generally been manifested eg miracles, signs and wonders, prophetic utterance, healing, tongues and interpretation.

To me it is as clear as the nose on your face, if there has been a withdrawing or ceasing of any gifts then all gifts are withdrawn or ceased.

But I say wherever there is the Holy Spirit He will bring His gifts. The whole matter is this....

God will give you what you ask Him for if you ask in faith and if it is in accordance with His word.

God will give nothing to unbelief. This is why there is a contention, because the devil takes fright, he must stop at all cost God manifesting Himself. devil can only do this by inventing doctrines.

There is a doctrine which says that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased...now PROVE this doctrine by scripture.

 

[Billy Evmur]

You talk about lazy...if the church were to start manifesting miracles, healing and signs and wonder like they did in the bible, their doors would not be closed 5 days in the week.

And it is pure laziness to dismiss the overwhelming glut of testimonial evidence there is of people who have been healed and who have received miracle transformations. Go to China and Africa, it is only in the west that the church is in decline.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Well that’s not true.

Obviously, Paul was an apostle and Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13 stating that tongues and other gifts would cease.

Paul also wrote 1 Timothy.

When that which is perfect is come.

 

[YeshuaFan]

He probably will not admit that, but YES, that is exactly what I was taught.

That is why we were told to ask people upon visitation to their homes...……
"Are you born again, WITH THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES".

That would really be adding to the Gospel, as paul states, teaching another one!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Just looking at the scriptures you quote for eg "if anyone goes beyond and does not adhere to our teaching"

But you don't...

John was baptised in the Holy Spirit and ministered the gifts of the Holy Spirit along with Peter.

No Apostle taught that the gifts would not remain in the church until that which is perfect is come when we no longer see as through a glass darkly.

It is silly to suggest that the canon of scripture is that which is perfect for Paul was the writer of most of it, his writings are not more perfect than his actual words as he expounded those doctrines. And his doctrine is that we should covet the gifts.

That is the complete canon of scripture, there IS no word about no longer earnestly coveting the higher gifts.

If you say there is a doctrine exhorting us to not earnestly covet the gifts you are going beyond what the scripture says, you are not abiding in the apostle's doctrine.

SOME of it you abide in, mebbe the most essential parts as far as your personal salvation is concerned...I am not saying anybody is not saved, I am not even saying I would not invite you into my house. But John was baptised with the Holy Ghost and ministered in signs and wonders.

The same applies to the other scriptures you quote. For your faith is not the one which was once delivered to the saints...it has enough to save the soul but it lacks the baptism of the Holy Spirit with accompanying gifts.

You talk alot...ALOT about interpreting scripture but Peter said "no scripture ever came by private interpretation of man" You don't need to puzzle and fret with scripture...just read it and believe what it says...it is not written for scholars, it is written for simple folks to read and understand.

And the Holy Spirit is WELL able to make you understand it.

You fail to rightly divide the scriptures, as you are reading it totally thru the lense of wof and "full Gospel"

 

[YeshuaFan]

You are trying to say that because I don't believe in the modern P/C movement dogma and agenda, that I don't adhere to the teaching of the apostles, but this is a false premise. I showed clearly some of the reasons why the modern P/C (Pentecostal/Charismatic) movement does not adhere to NT teaching, but you have not shown that I fit the same category other than your personal subjective opinion.

In addition, you completely missed (or ignored) the point I was making in quoting that verse. It is the typical mode of interpretation that you and your cronies do. You come to false conclusions about everything you read, including my posts and scripture. The reason I quoted that verse was to point out that NT doctrine is important above experience and fellowship, yet it appears you missed or ignored it because of your agenda.


Here again you miss the point, because like the P/C movement you assume that anyone who has not had the P/C experience is not baptized in the Spirit. This tells of your ignorance of NT teaching, since the Bible clearly states that all Christians are baptized in the Spirit, since we are baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, and that anyone not having the Spirit is "none of His." The experience of being baptized into Christ is the same experience of being baptized in the Spirit, since we also are made to drink of the same Spirit. It is merely different words to describe the same experience. Anyone who is led by the Spirit is a child of God, and has been baptized in the Spirit. Being born again is a spiritual baptism. Just because you imagine that your P/C experience is the same as that of Acts 2 doesn't make it so.


I never said this. I think you assume that I hold to the same interpretation of that verse in 1 Cor. 13 as others do, but I don't. So here again, you impose an idea on what I wrote just as you impose ideas into the scripture, which is the typical mode of interpretation of the P/C movement.



I never said this, but because of your agenda, I think you are hoping this statement to be true.

So, go ahead and earnestly desire something that God is not commonly giving at this time. As I said before, the P/C movement imagines that their practices of what they call prophecy and tongues is the same thing as what 1 Cor. calls "gifts of the Spirit," but I say it is not, for the reasons I cited.

Further, I challenge you to support your claims by scripture, which I have done before. Except you apparently are refusing to do so, because every time you do, I show from the context of scripture that your idea is false. And now all you can resort to is false accusations, or false conclusions about what I say.


I assume you are talking about the John who wrote the above verses. Yes, what you say is true here. But that doesn't support the modern P/C claims. I showed that those claims are false by reason of the context of scripture. If there is anything you are not clear about in this matter, then ask specific questions. I think if you just keep on making false accusations and coming to false conclusions, I might just let you have the last word and stop responding.



Your P/C jargon doesn't sway me. I already said that the first 25 years of my Christian walk was in the P/C movement. I was just as deceived as anyone in that movement. I spoke the same "tongues," had the same kind of experiences, believed the same dogmas, and practiced the same religious practices as they. But God led me out of it, in which I could tell you the reasons, but you would not accept those reasons as me being led by the Spirit, given your current attitude.




Everything you read and experience is interpreted in your mind, and that interpretation is based on what you think you know. But the verse I quoted was not for the purpose you are using it here. That verse means that scripture is God's word, not man's word, and I was quoting it to show that the doctrines of scripture take precedence over experiences, to show you that your order is mixed up, and this is why you misinterpret scripture.

So if you think that your interpretation (which is your opinion, based on the P/C movement's claims) is as much the word of God as the scripture itself, then you are mistaken and in error.


If you are too lazy to spend the time and effort to examine it carefully, I say that the Holy Spirit will not give you the understanding, because He is not an enabler of laziness. All the apostles became scholars of the scripture in the 20-30 years between Jesus' resurrection and when the NT was written.
TD

I was a teaching Elder, AOG schooled and trained, and left when I saw that the scriptures did NOT teach to us another Second Act of Grace, nor that one had to speak in tongues, nor that those sign gifts were still be given by God today! Also saw the scriptures were completed in full, no need to have any modern prophets/Apostles to continue ongoing revelations.
I see the AOG and their like as being sincere but those who misunderstand theperson and working of the Holy Spirit, but the WoF and health and wealth and prosperity to me have veered off into heresy!
Its the scriptures alone that are the infallible revelation from God to us, now the "new" theology and teachings of many in Charismatic Chaos!

 

[Major1]

It seems you are allowed to call me lazy but if I say you are an unbeliever [in the matter we are discussing] that is considered apprehensible.

Being baptised into Christ is not the same as being baptised with the Holy Spirit. This has been recognised throughout church history.

You only have to read Spurgeon to see that in his day as has ever been the case actually only a comparable few Christians of his day were walking in the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

You only have to read what condition the church was in before the great awakening of the 18th century when the Wesleys took Britain and America by storm. You only have to consider what state the church was in before the reformation, read the writings of the Puritans, Luther and you see quite clearly that not all are equal in power and blessing. Even the Catholics spoke [and still do] those who have a living faith and those who do not.

I consider Spurgeon to have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, and he did manifest gifts.

Moreover I see that throughout the whole of church history the gifts have been manifested, in the word of knowledge, wisdom, discerning of spirits etc even in prophetic utterance.

This is an argument about the gifts which have not generally been manifested eg miracles, signs and wonders, prophetic utterance, healing, tongues and interpretation.

To me it is as clear as the nose on your face, if there has been a withdrawing or ceasing of any gifts then all gifts are withdrawn or ceased.

But I say wherever there is the Holy Spirit He will bring His gifts. The whole matter is this....

God will give you what you ask Him for if you ask in faith and if it is in accordance with His word.

God will give nothing to unbelief. This is why there is a contention, because the devil takes fright, he must stop at all cost God manifesting Himself. devil can only do this by inventing doctrines.

There is a doctrine which says that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased...now PROVE this doctrine by scripture.

1 Corinthians 13:8...…..
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."


2 Corinthians 12:12....
"The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works."

Clearly, this verse is proof that signs and wonders were only performed through apostles. Not only that, but because apostles no longer exist, signs and wonders no longer exist.


Hebrews 1:1-2...…….
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

Again, it is abundantly obvious that in the past, God spoke through prophets. But now, in these last days, He only speaks through His Son. And it is the New Testament canon which faithfully, finally and fully testifies of the Son. Thus, prophecy is no longer needed.


Hebrews 2:3-4...……..
"How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."


Finally, as with 2 Corinthians 12:12, the apostles and the apostles alone were the ones who had their message attested to and confirmed by signs, wonders, miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit.


Scriptures that confirm the end of tongues and prophecy and knowledge is NOT the problem my dear friend. Accepting them is the problem.

 

[YeshuaFan]

And you would be wrong my friend.

I looked around is correct. And When I SAW people doing what was NOT recorded in the Bible, I knew they were doing what they wanted to do not what God told us to do.

Where is the INTERPRETAION???

WHY is there LAUGHING????

Does this look like the Holy Spirit of God is in control?????

This is what goes on in Pentecostal churches all the time.

This is what YOU are advocating.

Now WHERE in this is the Lord Jesus Christ lifted up and praised?????????

The Holy Spirit does NOT force one to bark like a dog, dance around like pants on fire, and to vomit up and out demons!

 

[tdidymas]

It seems you are allowed to call me lazy but if I say you are an unbeliever [in the matter we are discussing] that is considered apprehensible.

I think you mean "reprehensible." Again, you assume too much, as I did not "call you lazy" as you say, seeing I definitely said "IF." But then, I suppose you wore the shoe because you thought it fit?

Being baptised into Christ is not the same as being baptised with the Holy Spirit. This has been recognised throughout church history.

Is this your educated opinion? You have the burden of proof to show this with actual historical data.

You only have to read Spurgeon to see that in his day as has ever been the case actually only a comparable few Christians of his day were walking in the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

Every generation has mostly immature Christians, even the First Century had them, and today is no exception. Walking in the fullness of the Spirit of some does not prove anything concerning your theory about the P/C (modern Pentecostal/Charismatic) movement's claims. Get specific as I have clearly done, or your theory falls flat.

You only have to read what condition the church was in before the great awakening of the 18th century when the Wesleys took Britain and America by storm. You only have to consider what state the church was in before the reformation, read the writings of the Puritans, Luther and you see quite clearly that not all are equal in power and blessing. Even the Catholics spoke [and still do] those who have a living faith and those who do not.

There have been periods of revival throughout history, and we could discuss why the Welsh revival took root. But the teachings of the P/C movement is something different, as we are talking about certain claims such as the authenticity of common practices which are called prophecy, tongues, and interpretation and such. Of these claims, I say come out of natural activity and are not miraculous, whereas the Biblical gifts were miraculous. I keep saying you have the burden of proof to show that those activities are the same as described in the scripture. I think I clearly showed they are not. So do you want to discuss the real issue here, or do you want to evade it?

I consider Spurgeon to have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, and he did manifest gifts.

Spurgeon is well-respected in the Christian community, and I do consider him well-gifted. However, it doesn't support the P/C movement's claims. You have the burden of proof to get specific on what gifts you are talking about.

Moreover I see that throughout the whole of church history the gifts have been manifested, in the word of knowledge, wisdom, discerning of spirits etc even in prophetic utterance.

You have the burden of proof to show this by specific data. If you don't bring the historical proof to the table, then it's just your opinion.

This is an argument about the gifts which have not generally been manifested eg miracles, signs and wonders, prophetic utterance, healing, tongues and interpretation.

What? Do I see you now changing your tune? Are you now acknowledging that the vast majority of P/C activities regarding these gifts are not the same as described in the NT? That the P/C claims really are false concerning what they commonly practice?

To me it is as clear as the nose on your face, if there has been a withdrawing or ceasing of any gifts then all gifts are withdrawn or ceased.

No, this is a false premise. The Holy Spirit is still at work. What has diminished to almost no activity is the working of miracles which are mostly the sign gifts. Miracles are in no wise as common as the P/C movement claims. The main activity of the Holy Spirit is to regenerate and sanctify the saints. It is only occasional that God decides to miraculously heal someone or perform a miraculous act for someone.

But we are talking about the specific gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12. I think I sufficiently proved that those gifts were miraculous in nature (but I could go further if needed). I also laid claim that those gifts were given to individuals who could exercise them at their discretion, which I'm certain can be shown by Biblical exegesis (and I could do this if needed). I also laid claim that the so-called gifts commonly practiced in the P/C movement are not miraculous in nature, but are activities taken out of natural phenomenon and imagination, much like what is done by modern psychics and other religions. We could discuss this also if necessary. However, I see that you might be starting to acknowledge this by your comment above.

But I say wherever there is the Holy Spirit He will bring His gifts. The whole matter is this....

God will give you what you ask Him for if you ask in faith and if it is in accordance with His word.

God will give wisdom if you ask for it, but you must ask in faith. Furthermore, God will grant what we ask if it is in accordance with His will. You will see that I am in agreement with you in this matter, if you are familiar enough with scripture to note that my two statements have direct reference to scripture.

Nevertheless, as I said before, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12 are not what is commonly practiced in the P/C movement today. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit will bring gifts to people according to HIS will, not according to the P/C movement's agenda.

The gifts that people HAVE today that are commonly practiced in the churches are such as mercy, administration, preaching, evangelism, and other such gifts that are associated with the providence of God. IOW, inspired of God, but not in the miraculous category.

God will give nothing to unbelief. This is why there is a contention, because the devil takes fright, he must stop at all cost God manifesting Himself. devil can only do this by inventing doctrines.

There is a doctrine which says that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased...now PROVE this doctrine by scripture.

How can you be certain that the devil did not invent the doctrines of the modern P/C movement? If what they commonly practice is claimed to be the miraculous gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12, but in fact are not, then someone is deceived and under the devil's spell.

Actually, I never claimed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. I think you assumed it because I question the authenticity of the P/C claims. What I did claim is that those specific miraculous gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12, which the people who HAD them could exercise at their discretion, were gifts not in operation today, at least not the way that the P/C movement claims. At least I don't see that they are, but the P/C claim that they are and in common use is a false claim. If you want to hang the label of cessationist on me, then go right ahead. I don't consider myself in that camp, but I do see that it is your judgment of me.

But I also think that my words in this post do indeed prove that the modern P/C movement's claims about those gifts, and about tongues in particular, and all that is associated with it, are false. We could discuss this further, if necessary.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

You talk about lazy...if the church were to start manifesting miracles, healing and signs and wonder like they did in the bible, their doors would not be closed 5 days in the week.

And it is pure laziness to dismiss the overwhelming glut of testimonial evidence there is of people who have been healed and who have received miracle transformations. Go to China and Africa, it is only in the west that the church is in decline.

(Assuming your are still responding to me)
I already stated that I believe some of the testimonies of miraculous healings. What I don't believe is the prolific exaggerations and hype of the modern P/C movement. I also don't believe in what is commonly called "tongues" in that movement. But here again, your conversation is limited to theory and opinion.
TD

 

[YeshuaFan]

1 Corinthians 13:8...…..
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."


2 Corinthians 12:12....
"The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works."

Clearly, this verse is proof that signs and wonders were only performed through apostles. Not only that, but because apostles no longer exist, signs and wonders no longer exist.


Hebrews 1:1-2...…….
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

Again, it is abundantly obvious that in the past, God spoke through prophets. But now, in these last days, He only speaks through His Son. And it is the New Testament canon which faithfully, finally and fully testifies of the Son. Thus, prophecy is no longer needed.


Hebrews 2:3-4...……..
"How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."


Finally, as with 2 Corinthians 12:12, the apostles and the apostles alone were the ones who had their message attested to and confirmed by signs, wonders, miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit.


Scriptures that confirm the end of tongues and prophecy and knowledge is NOT the problem my dear friend. Accepting them is the problem.

That Hebrews passage drives the stake right thru their teaching on this subject!

 

[Billy Evmur]

(Assuming your are still responding to me)
I already stated that I believe some of the testimonies of miraculous healings. What I don't believe is the prolific exaggerations and hype of the modern P/C movement. I also don't believe in what is commonly called "tongues" in that movement. But here again, your conversation is limited to theory and opinion.
TD

It isn't limited to theory only or opinion but is rooted in personal experience backed by scripture...I received the baptism before I knew there was any such thing as Pentecostalism.

If you say you believe in the testimony of miraculous healings you must ask at once upon what basis they were healed? were they just lucky? mebbe God was in a good mood that day.

God works according to eternal plan and wisdom.

Why do you pay attention to prolific exaggerations and hype? I don't. I certainly would not either accept or reject bible doctrines on the basis of them.

Why not look at those ministries which have proved genuine, there is no shortage of them.

Why not decide upon what normally happens week in and week out in meetings across America?

I did not say I would not respond to you, merely that I would not share personal testimonies with you. There are a glut of testimonies, you did not believe them so why would I trouble you with mine? my experiences during more than 40 years are precious beyond price.

 

[Billy Evmur]

I think you mean "reprehensible." Again, you assume too much, as I did not "call you lazy" as you say, seeing I definitely said "IF." But then, I suppose you wore the shoe because you thought it fit?


Is this your educated opinion? You have the burden of proof to show this with actual historical data.


Every generation has mostly immature Christians, even the First Century had them, and today is no exception. Walking in the fullness of the Spirit of some does not prove anything concerning your theory about the P/C (modern Pentecostal/Charismatic) movement's claims. Get specific as I have clearly done, or your theory falls flat.


There have been periods of revival throughout history, and we could discuss why the Welsh revival took root. But the teachings of the P/C movement is something different, as we are talking about certain claims such as the authenticity of common practices which are called prophecy, tongues, and interpretation and such. Of these claims, I say come out of natural activity and are not miraculous, whereas the Biblical gifts were miraculous. I keep saying you have the burden of proof to show that those activities are the same as described in the scripture. I think I clearly showed they are not. So do you want to discuss the real issue here, or do you want to evade it?


Spurgeon is well-respected in the Christian community, and I do consider him well-gifted. However, it doesn't support the P/C movement's claims. You have the burden of proof to get specific on what gifts you are talking about.


You have the burden of proof to show this by specific data. If you don't bring the historical proof to the table, then it's just your opinion.


What? Do I see you now changing your tune? Are you now acknowledging that the vast majority of P/C activities regarding these gifts are not the same as described in the NT? That the P/C claims really are false concerning what they commonly practice?


No, this is a false premise. The Holy Spirit is still at work. What has diminished to almost no activity is the working of miracles which are mostly the sign gifts. Miracles are in no wise as common as the P/C movement claims. The main activity of the Holy Spirit is to regenerate and sanctify the saints. It is only occasional that God decides to miraculously heal someone or perform a miraculous act for someone.

But we are talking about the specific gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12. I think I sufficiently proved that those gifts were miraculous in nature (but I could go further if needed). I also laid claim that those gifts were given to individuals who could exercise them at their discretion, which I'm certain can be shown by Biblical exegesis (and I could do this if needed). I also laid claim that the so-called gifts commonly practiced in the P/C movement are not miraculous in nature, but are activities taken out of natural phenomenon and imagination, much like what is done by modern psychics and other religions. We could discuss this also if necessary. However, I see that you might be starting to acknowledge this by your comment above.


God will give wisdom if you ask for it, but you must ask in faith. Furthermore, God will grant what we ask if it is in accordance with His will. You will see that I am in agreement with you in this matter, if you are familiar enough with scripture to note that my two statements have direct reference to scripture.

Nevertheless, as I said before, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12 are not what is commonly practiced in the P/C movement today. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit will bring gifts to people according to HIS will, not according to the P/C movement's agenda.

The gifts that people HAVE today that are commonly practiced in the churches are such as mercy, administration, preaching, evangelism, and other such gifts that are associated with the providence of God. IOW, inspired of God, but not in the miraculous category.


How can you be certain that the devil did not invent the doctrines of the modern P/C movement? If what they commonly practice is claimed to be the miraculous gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12, but in fact are not, then someone is deceived and under the devil's spell.

Actually, I never claimed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. I think you assumed it because I question the authenticity of the P/C claims. What I did claim is that those specific miraculous gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12, which the people who HAD them could exercise at their discretion, were gifts not in operation today, at least not the way that the P/C movement claims. At least I don't see that they are, but the P/C claim that they are and in common use is a false claim. If you want to hang the label of cessationist on me, then go right ahead. I don't consider myself in that camp, but I do see that it is your judgment of me.

But I also think that my words in this post do indeed prove that the modern P/C movement's claims about those gifts, and about tongues in particular, and all that is associated with it, are false. We could discuss this further, if necessary.
TD

It's what you keep saying over and over again.

You are not going by bible doctrine but by what you personally see and hear.

 

[Billy Evmur]

1 Corinthians 13:8...…..
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."


2 Corinthians 12:12....
"The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works."

Clearly, this verse is proof that signs and wonders were only performed through apostles. Not only that, but because apostles no longer exist, signs and wonders no longer exist.


Hebrews 1:1-2...…….
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

Again, it is abundantly obvious that in the past, God spoke through prophets. But now, in these last days, He only speaks through His Son. And it is the New Testament canon which faithfully, finally and fully testifies of the Son. Thus, prophecy is no longer needed.


Hebrews 2:3-4...……..
"How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."


Finally, as with 2 Corinthians 12:12, the apostles and the apostles alone were the ones who had their message attested to and confirmed by signs, wonders, miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit.


Scriptures that confirm the end of tongues and prophecy and knowledge is NOT the problem my dear friend. Accepting them is the problem.

It's nonsense, Stephen was not an apostle nor was the Phillip who preached in Samaria, Ireneus speaks about the same things happening across the world in his day.

 

[Billy Evmur]

You fail to rightly divide the scriptures, as you are reading it totally thru the lense of wof and "full Gospel"

I am not in agreement with WoF I do believe in the full gospel...why wouldn't I ? why don't YOU? it is what I believed when I was saved...you also were saved through that testimony

 

[Billy Evmur]

That would really be adding to the Gospel, as paul states, teaching another one!

All you have to do is check out such statements with the bible. I have never met in over 40 years anybody who taught that.

 

[tdidymas]

It isn't limited to theory only or opinion but is rooted in personal experience backed by scripture...I received the baptism before I knew there was any such thing as Pentecostalism.

If you say you believe in the testimony of miraculous healings you must ask at once upon what basis they were healed? were they just lucky? mebbe God was in a good mood that day.

God works according to eternal plan and wisdom.

Why do you pay attention to prolific exaggerations and hype? I don't. I certainly would not either accept or reject bible doctrines on the basis of them.

Why not look at those ministries which have proved genuine, there is no shortage of them.

Why not decide upon what normally happens week in and week out in meetings across America?

I did not say I would not respond to you, merely that I would not share personal testimonies with you. There are a glut of testimonies, you did not believe them so why would I trouble you with mine? my experiences during more than 40 years are precious beyond price.

If you don't get to specifics that can be examined on the basis of scripture, then all you say is nothing but opinion, hype, and exaggeration.
TD