What is the Scriptural Basis for Cessationism?

[Major1]

Can you tell me what miracles you have received?
TD

I do not know about our friend Billy, but for me it was Jesus Christ turning me from a black hearted sinner on his way to hell to a born again blood bought child of God on his way to heaven.

 

[tdidymas]

And what did Peter say? "silver and gold have I none but such as I have give I unto thee, in the name of Jesus Christ rise and walk."

Have we not Jesus Christ and the name of Jesus Christ to give folks today?

"Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever"

This is the very scripture that God used to awaken my heart over 40 years ago, aw I had seen that quote many, many times in magazine report I had been receiving telling of amazing miracles. It is very simple isn't it? but I never understood it, I used to stare at it, "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever" what could it mean?

But I didn't BELIEVE those miracle reports

Lepers cleansed? blind receiving their sight? crippled beggars being healed? not just one or two but by the score.

I believe the miracles recorded in scripture, but most of the "miracles" told about today by Charismatics is hot air.

Of course it was American, we know that Americans are very excitable we know that they are given to exaggeration [not to say a little bragadociousness] they certainly know how to egg the pudding. I didn't think they were lying, just getting a little carried away.

It's called "hype" and I've seen plenty of it. I'm glad to see that you admit it. It doesn't lend to God's glory, but rather diminishes it in the eyes of the world. Like Jesus said to the religious leaders "you are hindering others from entering the kingdom."

But I loved the message, Christ IN you. The life of Christ in the soul.

And I also love that message, and I am still benefiting after 43 years.

But one day I read a 2 page spread story of a poor man in Puerto Rico who had been hopelessly crippled who got up and walked after prayer....and suddenly a silent alarm bell was ring inside me, "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever"

This verse is in the context of submission to authority and adhering to doctrines of the faith, not to believing whatever you hear that tickles your ears.

Incidentally, I already stated that I believe God does miracles today. But it is real miracles that I believe, not the 90% hype by the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

I understood it. If people come to Him today as they came to Him in the bible, they will certainly receive what the people back then received. But people today do NOT come to Him like that do they. I came to Him for pardon and new life through that gospel witness...and I got it.

I also came to Christ for pardon and got it. Praise the Lord!

In regard to the working of miracles, God has His own plan.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Those gifts are still in the church today.

It is not will He part the sea to save His people from Pharoah or will He walk on water to rescue the sinking disciples from the wind and waves. It is that He will hear the cry of people in distress and deliver them.

There are many gifts that are in the churches given to individuals, and many of them are being exercised. But in regard to the working of miracles, no individual in any church today HAS that gift. But if you claim to have it, then by all means, tell of what miracles you have performed by the power of God!

He is the Saviour, the Deliverer, He has not changed, but you have to call upon Him and you have to BELIEVE on Him.

He has not changed, the church has changed.

I believe in Him. What I do not believe is Charismatic hype.
TD

 

[Major1]

Incidentally, someone moaned about swooning. It was quite common during the 18th century Methodist revival...I never heard anyone suggest that it was anything than God's power.

It actually could be from not eating correctly.
It could be that someone's "sugar" was too high or to low.
It could be from medication not taken correctly or too many taken.
It could be "Faked" by a cry of attention.

 

[tdidymas]

I do not know about our friend Billy, but for me it was Jesus Christ turning me from a black hearted sinner on his way to hell to a born again blood bought child of God on his way to heaven.

Same with me. It is certainly a supernatural event. With me, it was God speaking to me that shook me out of my spiritual fog.

It is hard to say if this is a miracle, though. Miracles are events that defy the natural order. I would categorize this as a providential event, since God is using the natural order to make His will happen. It would not be a sign, in that no one else experienced it. However, it would be a "sign" to others, that they see the fruit of repentance.
TD

 

[Major1]

The full quote from Cor 14 is "If a man speaks in a tongue he speaks to God....he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself...I want you all to speak in tongues"

When you jump over these and only quote the part that pertains to prophecy it is another way of bending the scripture to fit your doctrine.

You want to prove that we still have the gift of prophecy [by whatever interpretation you put upon it] but we no longer have the gift of tongues...that is your doctrine.

Nobody can show you where prophecy has been withdrawn, nobody can show you where tongues have been withdrawn.

Now I fully agree that prophecy is preaching and teaching as well as foretelling.

A sermon

A sermon is prophesying ...right?

Have you never read or heard a FALSE sermon apart from Pentecostal or charismatic churches?

There is all manner of RUBBISH being preached in churches this very day across America, in Evangelical churches. Let alone the Mormons the JWs and the myriad cults.

You talk about false counsels as if that only happened in Pentecostal churches.

My rule has ALWAYS been that God will never speak contrary to scripture...always, always.

You are teaching contrary to scripture when you say the gifts are no longer in operation.

But when I hear someone say "the Lord told them He is going to kill all the homos in America" I know it is counter to scripture. So I judge what I hear. If such a saying was put to any assembly of God's people for examination it would not pass muster.

We have a personal responsibility to the Lord to believe His word, and cling closely to it.

1 Corinthians 13:8...…..
"Charity never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

"in a tongue"
γλώσσῃ (glōssē)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 1100: The tongue, a language.

 

[Major1]

Same with me. It is certainly a supernatural event. With me, it was God speaking to me that shook me out of my spiritual fog.

It is hard to say if this is a miracle, though. Miracles are events that defy the natural order. I would categorize this as a providential event, since God is using the natural order to make His will happen. It would not be a sign, in that no one else experienced it. However, it would be a "sign" to others, that they see the fruit of repentance.
TD

Yes I agree.

But If you knew what I was and How I lived, you too would say that it was a miracle.

Believe me when I say that those who do know me 50 years ago say it is a miracle.

I was a whole lot like Paul.

 

[Major1]

YOU won't believe unless you see miracles, I believed before I saw, since then I have seen and received many.

The Pharisees saw but they simply hated Him the more.

What do YOU call a miracle Billy?

 

[Major1]

No, we have gone over this before, the gifts do not cease until something essentially better and universal comes. The whole Bible is not better or universal.

The gifts never perish, the Spirit never dies.

And as I have said before, I can not agree with your thesis.

The Bible is the perfect Word of God.

The sign gifts were only in operation during the apostolic era to give special revelation until the completion of the New Testament. Before early Christians had the whole New Testament, they had to rely on words of knowledge, prophecy, and tongues to give them the full revelation of God. Once the church had possession of the full New Testament (the completeness/Mature), these gifts faded away as unnecessary.

I would ask you to consider that, if tongues, prophecy, and knowledge continue, this continuing revelation would in effect be adding to Scripture which is forbidden in Deut. and Rev.

Also, the Greek verb used for the cessation of tongues is in the middle voice, which indicates that they will cease “of themselves.” This is usually seen as further proof that tongues were temporary and would eventually pass away on their own.

As I haver said before, everyone who WANTS to speak in unintelligible utterances will do so BECAUSE THEY CAN AND THEY WANT TO.

It does not matter what is stated in the Bible, those people will always look for a way to explain away what they do not like. This is not new and has been around now for thousands of years.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

And as I have said before, I can not agree with your thesis.

The Bible is the perfect Word of God.

The sign gifts were only in operation during the apostolic era to give special revelation until the completion of the New Testament. Before early Christians had the whole New Testament, they had to rely on words of knowledge, prophecy, and tongues to give them the full revelation of God. Once the church had possession of the full New Testament (the completeness/Mature), these gifts faded away as unnecessary.

I would ask you to consider that, if tongues, prophecy, and knowledge continue, this continuing revelation would in effect be adding to Scripture which is forbidden in Deut. and Rev.

Also, the Greek verb used for the cessation of tongues is in the middle voice, which indicates that they will cease “of themselves.” This is usually seen as further proof that tongues were temporary and would eventually pass away on their own.

As I haver said before, everyone who WANTS to speak in unintelligible utterances will do so BECAUSE THEY CAN AND THEY WANT TO.

It does not matter what is stated in the Bible, those people will always look for a way to explain away what they do not like. This is not new and has been around now for thousands of years.

It doesn't stand to reason, as I said a few times, due to the Bible not being in print, or illegal or due to illiteracy... it is still as if the Bible is not there for many.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The Bible says that the preaching of the gospel is what makes disciples. The performance of miracles was for the authentication of the gospel, since they did not have the NT at the time (Heb. 2:4). I know that many people want to see miracles, just as Jesus said "you people won't believe unless you see miracles." Even I would like to see miracles, but God has His own plan.
TD

Again, tongues are not miracles.

To preach properly, you need an edified heart and the laying on of hands from someone with an Spirit filled heart, something to give away, no mere ritual, and this enables evangelism... as in Timothy, Hebrews 2 and 6 in proper context.

No matter of wanting to see miracles. Although healings make for good news and in Africa... outside the west, conversions are in great numbers and Christians outnumber western numbers in the BRICS now due to these more Biblical and better methods, pleasure and honour to God.

 

[Billy Evmur]

What do YOU call a miracle Billy?

I call any answer to prayer a miracle and I've had a load of them.

 

[Billy Evmur]

1 Corinthians 13:8...…..
"Charity never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

"in a tongue"
γλώσσῃ (glōssē)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 1100: The tongue, a language.

So in your view, preaching has failed
Tongues have ceased
knowledge has vanished away

 

[Billy Evmur]

It actually could be from not eating correctly.
It could be that someone's "sugar" was too high or to low.
It could be from medication not taken correctly or too many taken.
It could be "Faked" by a cry of attention.

The real problem you have here is you don't know what you are talking about, sometimes it is wise to keep silence. What about those swoonings experienced by the Methodists? John and Charles Wesley no less.

The phenomenon is always accompanied by a tangiable awareness of God's holy Presence.

 

[Billy Evmur]

I believe the miracles recorded in scripture, but most of the "miracles" told about today by Charismatics is hot air.


It's called "hype" and I've seen plenty of it. I'm glad to see that you admit it. It doesn't lend to God's glory, but rather diminishes it in the eyes of the world. Like Jesus said to the religious leaders "you are hindering others from entering the kingdom."


And I also love that message, and I am still benefiting after 43 years.


This verse is in the context of submission to authority and adhering to doctrines of the faith, not to believing whatever you hear that tickles your ears.

Incidentally, I already stated that I believe God does miracles today. But it is real miracles that I believe, not the 90% hype by the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.


I also came to Christ for pardon and got it. Praise the Lord!

In regard to the working of miracles, God has His own plan.


There are many gifts that are in the churches given to individuals, and many of them are being exercised. But in regard to the working of miracles, no individual in any church today HAS that gift. But if you claim to have it, then by all means, tell of what miracles you have performed by the power of God!


I believe in Him. What I do not believe is Charismatic hype.
TD

I have seen too many, received too many, ministered them to others...you are in a sad state and I would not even bother to share them with you.

But your attitude makes no bible sense whatever.

 

[Billy Evmur]

ALL men will believe what they want to believe my brother.

But we are not saved by miracles or faith healers or tongue talkers.

We stick to the bible, Samaria turned to the Lord when they saw the miracles he did on those who were sick...that is the consistent bible witness concerning salvation and the part God's miracles play in it.

 

[Billy Evmur]

To prophesy today would be the Minister in the pulpit taking the scriptures and rightly dividing it and expounding its principles to us for today!
And the modern day Charismatic movement has indeed caused much division and introduced some rank heresies into the Church!

But you say it is ceased...in the bible [and I really wish you would abide by what the bible teaches] the women prophesied but they were forbidden to teach...how does that fit in with your new fangled doctrine?

 

[tdidymas]

Again, tongues are not miracles.

To preach properly, you need an edified heart and the laying on of hands from someone with an Spirit filled heart, something to give away, no mere ritual, and this enables evangelism... as in Timothy, Hebrews 2 and 6 in proper context.

No matter of wanting to see miracles. Although healings make for good news and in Africa... outside the west, conversions are in great numbers and Christians outnumber western numbers in the BRICS now due to these more Biblical and better methods, pleasure and honour to God.

When you say "tongues are not miracles," I take it you are talking about what is commonly spoken today, and I am glad that you acknowledge that it is not miraculous. However, the tongues in the NT definitely was miraculous, since the apostles spoke intelligible known languages without learning those languages. What they spoke they had not learned, and yet people in the crowd understood what they said, that they were speaking of the mighty acts of God. The Acts story proves that it was miraculous. And the fact that you say "tongues are not miracles" shows that what is spoken today is not a gift of the Spirit, according to your argument, because the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12-14 were all miraculous in nature. If you can't see this in the context of the epistle, then you haven't looked deep enough.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I have seen too many, received too many, ministered them to others...you are in a sad state and I would not even bother to share them with you.

But your attitude makes no bible sense whatever.

Since you are resorting to false accusations, I take it you're done talking, since you cannot account for even one miraculous event you have experienced.
TD

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

When you say "tongues are not miracles," I take it you are talking about what is commonly spoken today, and I am glad that you acknowledge that it is not miraculous. However, the tongues in the NT definitely was miraculous, since the apostles spoke intelligible known languages without learning those languages. What they spoke they had not learned, and yet people in the crowd understood what they said, that they were speaking of the mighty acts of God. The Acts story proves that it was miraculous. And the fact that you say "tongues are not miracles" shows that what is spoken today is not a gift of the Spirit, according to your argument, because the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12-14 were all miraculous in nature. If you can't see this in the context of the epistle, then you haven't looked deep enough.
TD

No, there is one Spirit who gave and gives the gifts of tongues, instead what I am saying is that such as Peter in Acts speaking in tongues was not defined as a miracle by the Bible. Miracles were listed separately in the list of works of Jesus and the apostles from tongues, and I think healings.

 

[YeshuaFan]

The Bible says that the preaching of the gospel is what makes disciples. The performance of miracles was for the authentication of the gospel, since they did not have the NT at the time (Heb. 2:4). I know that many people want to see miracles, just as Jesus said "you people won't believe unless you see miracles." Even I would like to see miracles, but God has His own plan.
TD

Jesus stated to us blessed are those who hear and yet do not see and believe!