What is the purpose of the Sabbath?

[SabbathBlessings]

Read Hebrews 4 as a whole in context don't look for a specific verse to directly mention a new Sabbath day. But it's there! You have to be open and not be blinded guide by doctrine made by someone else.

I have read Hebrews 4 many times and I suggest you take your own advice.

Please point out to the verse that says “today is the new Sabbath”- what you pointed out says ‘Today’ if you hear His voice don’t harden your heart which is a quote from David so not saying what you’re claiming it does. If one of the commandments of God was going to be changed, it would be just as clear as how God wrote and God spoke it. He said no adding or subtracting to His commandments Deut 4:2, no editing.

 

[pasifika]

I have read Hebrews 4 many times and I suggest you take your own advice.

Please point out to the verse that says “today is the new Sabbath”- what you pointed out says ‘Today’ if you hear His voice don’t harden your heart which is a quote from David so not saying what you’re claiming it does. If one of the commandments of God was going to be changed, it would be just as clear as how God wrote and God spoke it. He said no adding or subtracting to His commandments Deut 4:2, no editing.

Thanks, but I don't belong to any denominations. The Spirit teach anyone as in 1John 2: 27..we also have to test all Spirit since false prophets are deceiving a lot in this generation..

Anyway, back to answering your question. There is no direct verse to say "Today is the new Sabbath day" but it's there! Indirectly.. It's like a "parable" you need to see it to know it.

Hebrews 4:4,5.."on the 7th day God rested from all His works", again in the same passage above he says, "They shall NEVER enter my Rest"

"They" in above verse reference to those in wilderness in which Moses gave the law in which the 7th day Sabbath command was given to keep. (Hebrews 3)

So, we can never enter into His Sabbath Rest based on the 7th day as in Genesis, that is Gods day of Rest. Our day of entering into His Rest comes only when we "Believe the Gospel" and the day is called "Today" (not today as we know it).

But the Sabbath Rest still remains But Not on the 7th day...then comes to Hebrews 4:7..God set a certain day calling it "today"

Verse 8..For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about "another day"...

 

[DamianWarS]

We it's always best to use scripture to help prove our case instead of our words. I have learned you can never reason with someone who doesn't use scripture. There is no scripture that says we need to look at the Sabbath with a different approach than the way God gave it as one of His eternal commandments. Exodus 20:8-11 Isaiah 58:13 We should not change something that is perfect and all of God's law is perfect converting the soul. Psalms 19:7

All I have used is scripture. You're looking for explicit statements that say do or do not where I'm applying critical thinking to scripture so although our methodology is different I still take it very seriously. Consistency and logic are important values to me and I reconcile scripture using this approach because I believe God is a God of order not of chaos thus scripture should make sense and follow logic. This intrinsically sees scripture with greater meaning than it's mere surface components and with a consistent goal throughout.

looking at Scripture critically it can be determined that the law of the sabbath was first implemented under the authority of Moses. Ex 16 shows a people who are ignorant of this law to such a point they did not believe it and went out on the sabbath anyway to collect manna. This is reasoning that is scripturally based by simply reading the account and developing an idea of the environment for which the event is played out in using only the details revealed through scripture. there is no statement saying when the sabbath law started, there is also no statement saying it is universal and this is as much of a problem for me, as it is for you. Yet scripture does show very clearly when the sabbath law is first implemented and this is a post-exodus event (ex 16).

This shows us that requirements of the Sabbath evolved since creation to a post-exodus Israel so there is no reason to superimpose post-exodus requirements on Adam because that simply would be silly. Early biblical accounts can be organized through covenant events, from Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses. They are all there to accomplish the same goal but may have contrasting points. For example, Noah was told "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you" whereas, with the Sinai covenant, there are governing dietary laws of what is considered clean and unclean. This alone shows us that this aspect of the Sinai covenant is not universal. it did not apply to Noah as it applied to those under the Sinai covenant. We can trace the same with circumcision which explicitly started since Abraham and is a sign of the covenant between Abraham and God, so circumcision is also not universal as circumcision did not apply the same way with for example Adam or Noah as it did for Abraham there for these laws are not universal. I'll remind you that this is all fully scripturally developed.

Sabbath as a noun (strong's 7676. shabbath) does not appear in Genesis. It is first introduced in scripture in Ex 16 and this revelation of the Sabbath is new to this passage. The law reminded us to look back at the 7th day and when we look back Sabbath is used as a verb (strong's 7673. shabath) or in context "[God] rested" Why did God rest. The creation account tells us this (2:2) "By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested" so God "shabath" (verb) because he "had finished the work he had been doing" ergo, finished work ushers in shabath. Hebrew's 4 confirms this as well (v3) "...his works have been finished since the creation of the world" (v5) "On the seventh day God rested from all his works" thus God rested from finished works. The definition of Sabbath, as I'm sure you know, is "to cease, desist, rest" Since we know God does not "rest" since he does not need to rest the word is more appropriate "he ceased his works" So Sabbath uniquely is Sabbath from the result of finished works. This by the way is fully developed from scripture. With this in mind, why is it I need to provide a verse that says sabbath law was not since the beginning when the word itself doesn't appear once in Genesis and when its first recorded event is clearly to an ignorant people in Ex 16? It would seem it speaks for itself and tells us covenant law is limited to the covenant they are created in, which is the natural understanding of a covenant. And Sabbath, circumcision, and dietary laws, as well as all other content laws are not universal.

 

[Leaf473]

You're looking for explicit statements that say do or do not where I'm applying critical thinking to scripture so although our methodology is different I still take it very seriously.

That's a key idea when discussing the scriptures: what is stated and what conclusions are drawn from what is stated.

I've never met anyone whose ideas are based only on what is stated in the scriptures.

An example from our brothers and sisters who observe the seventh day is that Adam and Eve were told that God was resting. That isn't stated,
it's a conclusion that can be drawn, or not.

Ex 16 shows a people who are ignorant of this law to such a point they did not believe it and went out on the sabbath anyway to collect manna.

A useful observation. If the Sabbath commandment is first given in the wilderness, then the purpose of the Sabbath looks like it's to teach us about God's provision.

God gave them a cloud by day, a pillar of fire by night. Manna on the ground to eat. But twice as much on the sixth day, reinforcing the idea that God will provide, trust that.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 29:5 - New International Reader's Version

Yet the LORD says, “I led you through the desert for 40 years. During that time your clothes didn’t wear out. The sandals on your feet didn’t wear out either.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

. There is no direct verse to say "Today is the new Sabbath day"

Of course there is not because it doesn’t exist.

but it's there! Indirectly..

Not if one is to trust God when He says no editing His commandments Deut 4:2 God made His commandments as clear as He possibly could be. He not only spoke them, He wrote them with His own finger. He went a step further and blessed the Sabbath commandment and once God blesses something man cannot reverse. Num 23:20 So you would need a thus saith the Lord to reverse the Sabbath commandment and that doesn’t exists instead we see Jesus and the apostles keeping it and being kept in the New Haven/New Earth, which means the Sabbath has and will never change for God’s people.

It's like a "parable" you need to see it to know it.

There is no parable on the Sabbath being changed, the Sabbath is a commandment, parables are used for deeper meanings and teachings, not to change laws. Jesus spoke in parables, Jesus is not speaking in Hebrews 4.

Hebrews 4:4,5.."on the 7th day God rested from all His works", again in the same passage above he says, "They shall NEVER enter my Rest"

We can make scripture say anything if we micro-quote scripture and remove the context, but when doing this, one is only hurting themselves because we are only sanctified by the Truth of God’s Word John 17:17 and all of God‘s commandments are Truth including the Sabbath commandment. Psalms 119:151

Lets quote the whole thing and look at the context….


Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;
The ”He” who spoke in a certain place of the seventh day is God speaking and writing the Ten Commandment. God rested on the seventh day from all His works and commanded us to do the same because we are made in His image to follow Him instead of doing our own thing.

5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
This verse is related to v6

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

This is a quote from David, nothing to do with changing the Sabbath day, and about the disobedience of the Israelites and is calling us not to be disobedient like the Israelites so we can enter into our promised rest in Christ, which there is NO rebellion, including profaning His holy Sabbath like the Israelites did.

8 For ifJoshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

Again, this is another reference to the Israelites and them not entering into Canaan their promised rest, nothing to do with changing the Sabbath commandment which the next verse makes this abundantly clear…it literally translates into Sabbath-keeping for God’s people

Hebrews 4:9 NASB Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

The word rest here literally translates into Sabbath-keeping
Strong's Concordance
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Hebrews 4 is about is contrasting the disobedience of the Israelites in the wilderness and applying it to today. Many of the Israelites did not enter into their promised rest, Canaan because of their disobedience which is rebellion to God Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 3:15 Psalms 95:7-8. The Israelites rebelled from the Sabbath among other things Eze 20:13 Eze 20:21 we are being called TODAY to not harden our hearts in rebellion to God, which is disobedience to God and Hebrews 4 is singling out Sabbath-keeping which REMAINS for the people of God. We cease our works as GOD DID FROM HIS on the seventh day Hebrews 4:10 Hebrews 4:4 Genesis 2:1-3 because we are made in the image of God to follow Him, not to do our own thing. Lest we fall in the same example of disobedience Hebrews 4:11 and not enter into our promise land to be with Jesus who gives us rest when we are not in rebellion to Him. In Christ rest there is no rebellion including the Sabbath commandment which is kept for eternity Isaiah 66:23.

God warns us a head of time, because He loves us bus sadly, just like the days of Noah, not many believed.

Hebrews 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Isaiah 57:21 There is no peace,” Says my God, “for the wicked.”

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Compared to the next verse the antidote….

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Today if we hear His voice- we should not harden our hearts In rebellion.

 

[Leaf473]

Using our minds to apply consistency and logic to the scriptures is showing trust in God
Because God hasn't given us a spirit of fear; but of power, love, and of a sound mind.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is no fear in those who love God and keep His commandments. Ecclesiastes 12:13 1 John 5:3 and God is long suffering, He is a God of love, but He is also a God of Judgement. His Judgement is a judgement of love because He knows not everyone is going to be happy in heaven and would not want to make someone do something they don't want to. His will is the same for us in heaven as it is on this earth. God loves us so much He gave His only son to take the penalty of sin and showed us the example of how to live 1 John 2:6 and asks so little of us in return- If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 and even gives us His Holy Spirit to help us but many refuse because they prefer darkness (sin) over coming to the light. John 3:19

God loves us so much He tells us ahead of time what is going to happen, but yet people lack faith and don't believe.

Jesus is a God of love, but He is also a God of Judgement and God will Judge His people and we have two choices...

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

We are saved by faith, but those with faith live differently than those who don't. Revelation 14:12

 

[Leaf473]

God asks everything from us. We don't belong to ourselves.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:19 - New International Reader's Version

Don’t you know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit? The Spirit is in you, and you have received the Spirit from God. You do not belong to yourselves.

www.biblegateway.com

I see in the Sabbath the teaching that it was one day a week for the Israelites, 24/7 for us.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is no scripture that says the Sabbath is for Gentiles 24/7 and for Jews on the seventh day. If Gentiles were keeping the Sabbath 24/7 the way God instructed man to keep the Sabbath for a full 24 hours, nothing would get done. That is not the cycle God gave Himself or man to follow. Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:8-11

The Sabbath is not the Sabbath of the Jews, it is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exodus 20:10 God's holy day Isaiah 58:13 and I would not want to miss being grafted into God's covenant promise He only made with the Israelites. Hebrews 8:10 Jer 31:33 Gal 3:26-28

 

[Leaf473]

I do my darndest to obey

Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 3:12 - New International Reader's Version

I have not yet received all these things. I have not yet reached my goal. Christ Jesus took hold of me so that I could reach that goal. So I keep pushing myself forward to reach it.

www.biblegateway.com

If anyone would like to have a respectful dialogue about which instructions to obey, I invite that

 

[Leaf473]

To reiterate, closer to the thread topic,

I see in the Sabbath the teaching that it was one day a week for the Israelites, 24/7 for us.

 

[DamianWarS]

An example from our brothers and sisters who observe the seventh day is that Adam and Eve were told that God was resting. That isn't stated,
it's a conclusion that can be drawn, or not.

God was in a state of rest which by definition means he was finished his work. So Adam did not witness God in his prior state and would be ignorant as to what a resting God looked like versus a working God, at least in a Gen 1 creation account vacuum. when you add the Gen 2 creation account Adam is mature and living long enough that he is able to obverse the animal kingdom which prompts him to desire a partner. Although he does not witness God creating (since he was sleeping) he would develop a perception of God that may continue to create and may view creation prior to as incomplete.

Hebrew's 4 tells us "his works have been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” This connects the "finished state" with the "rest state" and I would suggest is not compatible with the Gen 2 creation account where God breaks his rest to complete his work which challenges the 7th day.

Classic Hebraic block logic allows tension in accounts where details may be more fluid as they are there to support the goal and it is the goal that is the most meaningful. The goal of Gen 1 creation account is to establish a monotheistic God as the source behind all things, deeper goals show us a typology of salvation from darkness to rest and more advanced goals can foreshadow Christ, the resurrection all the way up to the restoration of all things. The goal of the Gen 2 creation account is to build a context around the fall of man (ch 3) contrasting the state before the fall and after. Even if the details that build the goals of these accounts don't all agree they are not competing with each other so can be told separately to emphasize the point it's trying to make. This is only a problem in our obsessive detail-driven Western thinking but it's not a problem in ancient thinking. Western modern accounts tend to be fact-driven whereas ancient Eastern accounts are more honor driven. In a modern context, it is important that accounts have all the facts in order to be reliable, in ancient eastern thinking if the goal is worthy than it is important to support that goal as much as possible.

This is why there are seemingly two different creation accounts in the bible, they have different goals and tell different stories but both are worthy to be told so both are worthy to have details that support the goal as much as possible. This is another reason why we should hang on fact-driven goals in our reading of these accounts loosely so that it doesn't conflict with the actual goals of the account which are probably less fact-driven yet still is truth.

This may or may not challenge the literalness of the account, depending on how you value these things. but that's not my intent, we should recognize the limits of the accounts and be able to set aside our own driven ambitions so that we may understand what the account is trying to say. The creation account of Gen 1 in my opinion is one of the most underappreciated accounts in scripture and is often left for the Sunday school classroom but it may be the most pack and deep meaning passage in the entire bible and we do a disservice to it when all we can see is the literal. The literalness is the most unimportant and uninteresting part of the account and for that reason, I don't even engage in its discussion because the deeper meanings are far more interesting to not stop and take notice. as it is with the 7th day, it means the spiritual completeness that only Christ can give and that's the turth of the account that we should be putting our energy into.

 

[Leaf473]

God was in a state of rest which by definition means he was finished his work. So Adam did not witness God in his prior state and would be ignorant as to what a resting God looked like versus a working God, at least in a Gen 1 creation account vacuum. when you add the Gen 2 creation account Adam is mature and living long enough that he is able to obverse the animal kingdom which prompts him to desire a partner. Although he does not witness God creating (since he was sleeping) he would develop a perception of God that may continue to create and may view creation prior to as incomplete.

Hebrew's 4 tells us "his works have been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”

This connects the "finished state" with the "rest state" and I would suggest is not compatible with the Gen 2 creation account where God breaks his rest to complete his work which challenges the 7th day.

Very interesting observation, about God breaking his rest.

Classic Hebraic block logic allows tension in accounts where details may be more fluid as they are there to support the goal and it is the goal that is the most meaningful. The goal of Gen 1 creation account is to establish a monotheistic God as the source behind all things, deeper goals show us a typology of salvation from darkness to rest and more advanced goals can foreshadow Christ, the resurrection all the way up to the restoration of all things. The goal of the Gen 2 creation account is to build a context around the fall of man (ch 3) contrasting the state before the fall and after. Even if the details that build the goals of these accounts don't all agree they are not competing with each other so can be told separately to emphasize the point it's trying to make. This is only a problem in our obsessive detail-driven Western thinking but it's not a problem in ancient thinking. Western modern accounts tend to be fact-driven whereas ancient Eastern accounts are more honor driven. In a modern context, it is important that accounts have all the facts in order to be reliable, in ancient eastern thinking if the goal is worthy than it is important to support that goal as much as possible.

This is why there are seemingly two different creation accounts in the bible, they have different goals and tell different stories but both are worthy to be told so both are worthy to have details that support the goal as much as possible. This is another reason why we should hang on fact-driven goals in our reading of these accounts loosely so that it doesn't conflict with the actual goals of the account which are probably less fact-driven yet still is truth.

This may or may not challenge the literalness of the account, depending on how you value these things. but that's not my intent, we should recognize the limits of the accounts and be able to set aside our own driven ambitions so that we may understand what the account is trying to say. The creation account of Gen 1 in my opinion is one of the most underappreciated accounts in scripture and is often left for the Sunday school classroom but it may be the most pack and deep meaning passage in the entire bible and we do a disservice to it when all we can see is the literal. The literalness is the most unimportant and uninteresting part of the account and for that reason, I don't even engage in its discussion because the deeper meanings are far more interesting to not stop and take notice. as it is with the 7th day, it means the spiritual completeness that only Christ can give and that's the turth of the account that we should be putting our energy into.

I found this part especially useful, about Classic Hebraic block logic. I think cultural approaches to literature are as important as, for example, word definitions.

 

[Leaf473]

We can do God's work 24/7, and that's one of the purposes of the Sabbath, to teach us that.

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 3:15-17 - The Message

Let the peace of Christ keep you in tune with each other, in step with each other. None of this going off and doing your own thing. And cultivate thankfulness. Let the Word of Christ—the Message—have the run of the house. Give it plenty of room in your lives. Instruct and direct one another...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[DamianWarS]

Very interesting observation, about God breaking his rest.

I found this part especially useful, about Classic Hebraic block logic. I think cultural approaches to literature are as important as, for example, word definitions.

to be clear I don't think Gen 2 creation account shows creation as incomplete prior to Eve or shows God breaking his rest because he forgets something. The account isn't about God resting or isn't about contrasting the incomplete state of the world with the complete as the Gen 1 account shows. Hebraic block logic is a little bit like each block is an isolated island with its own microclimate and its own vacuum of rules. Both are right at the same time even if their details pitted against each other don't agree. The accounts are not intended to flow into each other like that. It is more important to look for what these accounts are trying to say to then make sense of the details than it is to force them to agree with other accounts. if you force them then you get the problems.

 

[bbbbbbb]

to be clear I don't think Gen 2 creation account shows creation as incomplete prior to Eve or shows God breaking his rest because he forgets something. The account isn't about God resting or isn't about contrasting the incomplete state of the world with the complete as the Gen 1 account shows. Hebraic block logic is a little bit like each block is an isolated island with its own microclimate and its own vacuum of rules. Both are right at the same time even if their details pitted against each other don't agree. The accounts are not intended to flow into each other like that. It is more important to look for what these accounts are trying to say to then make sense of the details than it is to force them to agree with other accounts. if you force them then you get the problems.

The really perplexing matter is what God did on the eighth day.

 

[Gary K]

All I have used is scripture. You're looking for explicit statements that say do or do not where I'm applying critical thinking to scripture so although our methodology is different I still take it very seriously. Consistency and logic are important values to me and I reconcile scripture using this approach because I believe God is a God of order not of chaos thus scripture should make sense and follow logic. This intrinsically sees scripture with greater meaning than it's mere surface components and with a consistent goal throughout.

looking at Scripture critically it can be determined that the law of the sabbath was first implemented under the authority of Moses. Ex 16 shows a people who are ignorant of this law to such a point they did not believe it and went out on the sabbath anyway to collect manna. This is reasoning that is scripturally based by simply reading the account and developing an idea of the environment for which the event is played out in using only the details revealed through scripture. there is no statement saying when the sabbath law started, there is also no statement saying it is universal and this is as much of a problem for me, as it is for you. Yet scripture does show very clearly when the sabbath law is first implemented and this is a post-exodus event (ex 16).

This shows us that requirements of the Sabbath evolved since creation to a post-exodus Israel so there is no reason to superimpose post-exodus requirements on Adam because that simply would be silly. Early biblical accounts can be organized through covenant events, from Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses. They are all there to accomplish the same goal but may have contrasting points. For example, Noah was told "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you" whereas, with the Sinai covenant, there are governing dietary laws of what is considered clean and unclean. This alone shows us that this aspect of the Sinai covenant is not universal. it did not apply to Noah as it applied to those under the Sinai covenant. We can trace the same with circumcision which explicitly started since Abraham and is a sign of the covenant between Abraham and God, so circumcision is also not universal as circumcision did not apply the same way with for example Adam or Noah as it did for Abraham there for these laws are not universal. I'll remind you that this is all fully scripturally developed.

Sabbath as a noun (strong's 7676. shabbath) does not appear in Genesis. It is first introduced in scripture in Ex 16 and this revelation of the Sabbath is new to this passage. The law reminded us to look back at the 7th day and when we look back Sabbath is used as a verb (strong's 7673. shabath) or in context "[God] rested" Why did God rest. The creation account tells us this (2:2) "By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested" so God "shabath" (verb) because he "had finished the work he had been doing" ergo, finished work ushers in shabath. Hebrew's 4 confirms this as well (v3) "...his works have been finished since the creation of the world" (v5) "On the seventh day God rested from all his works" thus God rested from finished works. The definition of Sabbath, as I'm sure you know, is "to cease, desist, rest" Since we know God does not "rest" since he does not need to rest the word is more appropriate "he ceased his works" So Sabbath uniquely is Sabbath from the result of finished works. This by the way is fully developed from scripture. With this in mind, why is it I need to provide a verse that says sabbath law was not since the beginning when the word itself doesn't appear once in Genesis and when its first recorded event is clearly to an ignorant people in Ex 16? It would seem it speaks for itself and tells us covenant law is limited to the covenant they are created in, which is the natural understanding of a covenant. And Sabbath, circumcision, and dietary laws, as well as all other content laws are not universal.

On what I emphasized you are mistaken.

Gen_17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

The following scripture tells us what that covenant was.

Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

 

[DamianWarS]

On what I emphasized you are mistaken.



The following scripture tells us what that covenant was.

I'm not sure what your focus is here. If I'm mistaken then please unpack that so I don't need to guess. You highlighted a quote from me "looking at Scripture critically it can be determined that the law of the sabbath was first implemented under the authority of Moses" if the issue is regarding "the authority of Moses" my meaning is that Moses was in a leadership position over Israel and nothing more.

Regarding the quote on Gen 17, Gen 17 is the Abrahamic covenant and physical circumsion is it's sign. It indeed is stated for generations to come but NT teaching tells us physical "circumsion is nothing" (1 Cor 9:17, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15). Since both are true we must conclude we are not under the Abrahamic covenant.

Regarding Ex 34:27,28. This is the covenant established with Moses/Israel (...and generations to come). It uses very similar language to the Abrahamic covenant (Gen 17) Sabbath is it's sign (Ex 31:12) and the stone tablets are called the "two tablets of covenant law" (Ex 31:18, 34:29). The tablets eventually are also placed in the ark of the covenant. so the ark and 10 commandments, including the Sabbath are bound to this covenant just as circumsion is bound to the Abrahamic.

Aside from the NT references saying we are released from the law (such as Rom 7:6) the language seems too contentious on this forum but what is clear is the matter of circumsion that the physical act is not required. Reading Gen 17 however it is quite clear that physical circumsion is needed otherwise the covenant is broken and the Israelites were under this obligation.

the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenant work together and the Mosaic includes the Abrahamic and it cannot be separated except for intellectual reasons. If we violate the Abrahamic by not keeping physical circumsion then we violate the Mosaic covenant as well. Moses was even called out for not keeping it (Ex 4) so we know Moses was under the Abrahamic covenant. So when Paul calls circumsion nothing he is challenging the physical system of the law, Mosaic and Abrahamic together. The covenants are bound together and circumsion is the linchpin, if it is broken, the whole of it is broken. (See James 2:10)

the law is very physically driven and using these physical analogs it testifies to the new and that's the point of the law. It still can testify to the new but the new is already here so the testifying work is in practice complete so we don't need to continue and should be focused on the new bit keeping the old.

 

[Gary K]

I'm not sure what your focus is here. If I'm mistaken then please unpack that so I don't need to guess. You highlighted a quote from me "looking at Scripture critically it can be determined that the law of the sabbath was first implemented under the authority of Moses" if the issue is regarding "the authority of Moses" my meaning is that Moses was in a leadership position over Israel and nothing more.

Regarding the quote on Gen 17, Gen 17 is the Abrahamic covenant and physical circumsion is it's sign. It indeed is stated for generations to come but NT teaching tells us physical "circumsion is nothing" (1 Cor 9:17, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15). Since both are true we must conclude we are not under the Abrahamic covenant.

Regarding Ex 34:27,28. This is the covenant established with Moses/Israel (...and generations to come). It uses very similar language to the Abrahamic covenant (Gen 17) Sabbath is it's sign (Ex 31:12) and the stone tablets are called the "two tablets of covenant law" (Ex 31:18, 34:29). The tablets eventually are also placed in the ark of the covenant. so the ark and 10 commandments, including the Sabbath are bound to this covenant just as circumsion is bound to the Abrahamic.

Aside from the NT references saying we are released from the law (such as Rom 7:6) the language seems too contentious on this forum but what is clear is the matter of circumsion that the physical act is not required. Reading Gen 17 however it is quite clear that physical circumsion is needed otherwise the covenant is broken and the Israelites were under this obligation.

the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenant work together and the Mosaic includes the Abrahamic and it cannot be separated except for intellectual reasons. If we violate the Abrahamic by not keeping physical circumsion then we violate the Mosaic covenant as well. Moses was even called out for not keeping it (Ex 4) so we know Moses was under the Abrahamic covenant. So when Paul calls circumsion nothing he is challenging the physical system of the law, Mosaic and Abrahamic together. The covenants are bound together and circumsion is the linchpin, if it is broken, the whole of it is broken. (See James 2:10)

the law is very physically driven and using these physical analogs it testifies to the new and that's the point of the law. It still can testify to the new but the new is already here so the testifying work is in practice complete so we don't need to continue and should be focused on the new bit keeping the old.

Sorry about not answering right away I guess I got busy answering other posts on other threads.

The reference to Abraham is to illustrate that God's moral law was known hundreds of years before Jesus gave the law on Sinai. And the other one is just to show what God's covenant with the Israelites was as that seems to be a hotly debated issue.

 

[Gary K]

I'm not sure what your focus is here. If I'm mistaken then please unpack that so I don't need to guess. You highlighted a quote from me "looking at Scripture critically it can be determined that the law of the sabbath was first implemented under the authority of Moses" if the issue is regarding "the authority of Moses" my meaning is that Moses was in a leadership position over Israel and nothing more.

Regarding the quote on Gen 17, Gen 17 is the Abrahamic covenant and physical circumsion is it's sign. It indeed is stated for generations to come but NT teaching tells us physical "circumsion is nothing" (1 Cor 9:17, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15). Since both are true we must conclude we are not under the Abrahamic covenant.

Regarding Ex 34:27,28. This is the covenant established with Moses/Israel (...and generations to come). It uses very similar language to the Abrahamic covenant (Gen 17) Sabbath is it's sign (Ex 31:12) and the stone tablets are called the "two tablets of covenant law" (Ex 31:18, 34:29). The tablets eventually are also placed in the ark of the covenant. so the ark and 10 commandments, including the Sabbath are bound to this covenant just as circumsion is bound to the Abrahamic.

Aside from the NT references saying we are released from the law (such as Rom 7:6) the language seems too contentious on this forum but what is clear is the matter of circumsion that the physical act is not required. Reading Gen 17 however it is quite clear that physical circumsion is needed otherwise the covenant is broken and the Israelites were under this obligation.

the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenant work together and the Mosaic includes the Abrahamic and it cannot be separated except for intellectual reasons. If we violate the Abrahamic by not keeping physical circumsion then we violate the Mosaic covenant as well. Moses was even called out for not keeping it (Ex 4) so we know Moses was under the Abrahamic covenant. So when Paul calls circumsion nothing he is challenging the physical system of the law, Mosaic and Abrahamic together. The covenants are bound together and circumsion is the linchpin, if it is broken, the whole of it is broken. (See James 2:10)

the law is very physically driven and using these physical analogs it testifies to the new and that's the point of the law. It still can testify to the new but the new is already here so the testifying work is in practice complete so we don't need to continue and should be focused on the new bit keeping the old.

1. Circumcision was not given as part of God's moral law as it was given to Abraham as the sign of his friendship with God and was to be passed down through his posterity as the Israelites were God's chosen people through which His law was to be given to the world and the world's Redeemer was to come. Abraham was to be the father of many nations and through him all nations of the earth were to be blessed.

2. Have you never read Matthew chapter 1?

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Notice Jesus is to save His people from their sins, not in their sins. God is very good. He wants to deliver us from not only the guilt and shame of sin but to save us from the self destructive consequences of sin for it always has very negative consequences in our lives that bring us pain and heartache and not only to us, but to those around us.