What is the "harlot city" in the Book of Revelation?

[StevenMerten]

That is not what Catholic Theologians have interpreted, unless you want to throw away the whole of Nostra Aetate. The present understanding of the Church is that, as Paul said, THE GIFTS AND CALLINGS OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

"Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures" Nostra Aetate 4

Trust me, as a Jewish Catholic, I know these issues inside out. My Hebrew Catholic group discusses these things in full, and our website and newsletters provide all the authoritative Catholic resources.

Hello Open Heart,
Have you read the Old Testament contract with God? I will post some of it. The Prophets, especially Daniel, understood that Israel was suffering the consequences of not fulfilling thier end of the contract with God. God went to plan B. God's curses upon Israel.

NAB DUE 28:1
“Thus, then, shall it be: if you continue to heed the voice of the LORD, your God, and are careful to observe all his commandments which I enjoin on you today, the LORD, your God, will raise you high above all the nations of the earth. When you hearken to the voice of the LORD, your God, all these blessings will come upon you and overwhelm you:
“May you be blessed in the city, and blessed in the country! “Blessed be the fruit of your womb, the produce of your soil and the offspring of your livestock, the issue of your herds and the young of your flocks! “Blessed be your grain bin and your kneading bowl! “May you be blessed in your coming in, and blessed in your going out!

“The LORD will beat down before you the enemies that rise up against you; though they come out against you from but one direction, they will flee before you in seven. The LORD will affirm his blessing upon you, on your barns and on all your undertakings, blessing you in the land that the LORD, your God, gives you. Provided that you keep the commandments of the LORD, your God, and walk in his ways, he will establish you as a people sacred to himself, as he swore to you; so that, when all the nations of the earth see you bearing the name of the LORD, they will stand in awe of you. The LORD will increase in more than goodly measure the fruit of your womb, the offspring of your livestock, and the produce of your soil, in the land which he swore to your fathers he would give you. The LORD will open up for you his rich treasure house of the heavens, to give your land rain in due season, blessing all your undertakings, so that you will lend to many nations and borrow from none. The LORD will make you the head, not the tail, and you will always mount higher and not decline, as long as you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I order you today to observe carefully; not turning aside to the right or to the left from any of the commandments which I now give you, in order to follow other gods and serve them.

“But if you do not hearken to the voice of the LORD, your God, and are not careful to observe all his commandments which I enjoin on you today, all these curses shall come upon you and overwhelm you: “May you be cursed in the city, and cursed in the country! “Cursed be your grain bin and your kneading bowl! “Cursed be the fruit of your womb, the produce of your soil and the offspring of your livestock, the issue of your herds and the young of your flocks! “May you be cursed in your coming in, and cursed in your going out!

“The LORD will put a curse on you, defeat and frustration in every enterprise you undertake, until you are speedily destroyed and perish for the evil you have done in forsaking me. The LORD will bring a pestilence upon you that will persist until he has exterminated you from the land you are entering to occupy. The LORD will strike you with wasting and fever, with scorching, fiery drought, with blight and searing wind, that will plague you until you perish. The sky over your heads will be like bronze and the earth under your feet like iron. For rain the LORD will give your land powdery dust, which will come down upon you from the sky until you are destroyed. The LORD will let you be beaten down before your enemies; though you advance against them from one direction, you will flee before them in seven, so that you will become a terrifying example to all the kingdoms of the earth. Your carcasses will become food for all the birds of the air and for the beasts of the field, with no one to frighten them off. The LORD will strike you with Egyptian boils and with tumors, eczema and the itch, until you cannot be cured. And the LORD will strike you with madness, blindness and panic, so that even at midday you will grope like a blind man in the dark, unable to find your way.

“You will be oppressed and robbed continually, with no one to come to your aid. Though you betroth a wife, another man will have her. Though you build a house, you will not live in it. Though you plant a vineyard, you will not enjoy its fruits. Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, and you will not eat of its flesh. Your ass will be stolen in your presence, but you will not recover it. Your flocks will be given to your enemies, with no one to come to your aid. Your sons and daughters will be given to a foreign nation while you look on and grieve for them in constant helplessness. A people whom you do not know will consume the fruit of your soil and of all your labor, and you will be oppressed and crushed at all times without surcease, until you are driven mad by what your eyes must look upon. The LORD will strike you with malignant boils of which you cannot be cured, on your knees and legs, and from the soles of your feet to the crown of your head.

“The LORD will bring you, and your king whom you have set over you, to a nation which you and your fathers have not known, and there you will serve strange gods of wood and stone, and will call forth amazement, reproach and barbed scorn from all the nations to which the LORD will lead you.

“Though you spend much seed on your field, you will harvest but little, for the locusts will devour the crop. Though you plant and cultivate vineyards, you will not drink or store up the wine, for the grubs will eat the vines clean. Though you have olive trees throughout your country, you will have no oil for ointment, for your olives will drop off unripe. Though you beget sons and daughters, they will not remain with you, but will go into captivity. Buzzing insects will infest all your trees and the crops of your soil. The alien residing among you will rise higher and higher above you, while you sink lower and lower. He will lend to you, not you to him. He will become the head, you the tail.

“All these curses will come upon you, pursuing you and overwhelming you, until you are destroyed, because you would not hearken to the voice of the LORD, your God, nor keep the commandments and statutes he gave you. They will light on you and your descendants as a sign and a wonder for all time. Since you would not serve the LORD, your God, with joy and gratitude for abundance of every kind, therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and utter poverty, you will serve the enemies whom the LORD will send against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck, until he destroys you.

“The LORD will raise up against you a nation from afar, from the end of the earth, that swoops down like an eagle, a nation whose tongue you do not understand, a nation of stern visage, that shows neither respect for the aged nor pity for the young. They will consume the offspring of your livestock and the produce of your soil, until you are destroyed; they will leave you no grain or wine or oil, no issue of your herds or young of your flocks, until they have brought about your ruin. They will besiege you in each of your communities, until the great, unscalable walls you trust in come tumbling down all over your land. They will so besiege you in every community throughout the land which the LORD, your God, has given you, that in the distress of the siege to which your enemy subjects you, you will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your own sons and daughters whom the LORD, your God, has given you. The most refined and fastidious man among you will begrudge his brother and his beloved wife and his surviving children, any share in the flesh of his children that he himself is using for food when nothing else is left him in the straits of the siege to which your enemy will subject you in all your communities. The most refined and delicate woman among you, so delicate and refined that she would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground, will begrudge her beloved husband and her son and daughter the afterbirth that issues from her womb and the infant she brings forth when she secretly uses them for food for want of anything else, in the straits of the siege to which your enemy will subject you in your communities.

“If you are not careful to observe every word of the law which is written in this book, and to revere the glorious and awesome name of the LORD, your God, he will smite you and your descendants with severe and constant blows, malignant and lasting maladies.​

 

[Rhamiel]

That is not what Catholic Theologians have interpreted, unless you want to throw away the whole of Nostra Aetate. The present understanding of the Church is that, as Paul said, THE GIFTS AND CALLINGS OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

"Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures" Nostra Aetate 4

Trust me, as a Jewish Catholic, I know these issues inside out. My Hebrew Catholic group discusses these things in full, and our website and newsletters provide all the authoritative Catholic resources.

Jesus is very clear about those who reject Him reject God
I will stick with the writings of St. John Chrysostom on this issue, he has shown great wisdom about the enemies of Christ

 

[Open Heart]

Hello Open Heart,
Your question was 'says who?'. God says that Israel is the harlot that He casts out of the Promised land and into captivity in Assyria and Babylon.

How do you decipher Ezekiel 23 in my above post?

Casting Israel out of the land is not the same thing as saying God has rejected Israel. God disciplines me too, at times harshly, but God certainly hasn't cast me away. If you read the covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis, God gives the land to his descendants -- permanently. But the ability to LIVE ON THE LAND? That's something else entirely. In Exodus God's covenant with Israel makes clear that they may only stay on the land if they are obedient. So if Israel is on the land, it means God is pleased with their obedience. If Israel is off the land, the land STILL belongs to them, but they are going through a time of being disciplined.

As for being a harlot, you need to read the book of Hosea. The whole point of the book is that God is faithful to Israel despite Israel's harlotry, just as Hosea was faithful to his wife despite her harlotry.

Thus, all your arguments for Israel being cast aside by God have been demolished.

Instead we have what Paul writes in the PRESENT TENSE:
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
Romans 9:4
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29
as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Romans 11:28

 

[Open Heart]

Hello Open Heart,
Have you read the Old Testament contract with God?

Hi Stephen, my brother in Christ.

Our conversation is new, so I know you don't know me very well. Let me introduce myself. I am a Jewish Christian, a member of the Catholic Church. You can call me a Messianic Jew, a Hebrew Catholic, any of those labels work just fine. I email with other Catholic Jews and Messianic Jews extensively, so trust me, I am VERY well versed on the Abrahamic covenant, the Sinai Covenant, etc. It's my birthright as a Jew. As a believer in Messiah, I'm also well versed in the New Covenant, and how the two covenants relate. Trust me -- I live for this stuff! You can relax, knowing that I already have this strong background and do not need to be informed.

 

[Open Heart]

Jesus is very clear about those who reject Him reject God
I will stick with the writings of St. John Chrysostom on this issue, he has shown great wisdom about the enemies of Christ

The Catholic Church is very clear about invincible ignorance. In addition to this, we have the unique circumstance that Jews are not voluntarily rejecting Christ even when they DO have the gospel presented to them. Nope. It is God himself who is blinding their eyes, thus relieving them of responsibility. Leave it to God's mercy, Rhamiel.

At any rate, their personal, individual salvation has nothing to do with whether they are still a called, chosen people.

 

[Rhamiel]

The Catholic Church is very clear about invincible ignorance.

that it may be possible for people who are ignorant of the Gospel to be saved
we do not know if it has happened even once
and there are a lot of good Catholic arguments against that

In addition to this, we have the unique circumstance that Jews are not voluntarily rejecting Christ even when they DO have the gospel presented to them. Nope. It is God himself who is blinding their eyes, thus relieving them of responsibility. Leave it to God's mercy, Rhamiel.

this reeks of Calvinism, making people not responsible for their actions
many good and pious Jews who love God have converted to the Catholic faith, so we can not act like it is impossible for them

John 8:19
Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."
2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

the Jews being blind is like when God "hardened Pharaohs heart"
when someone becomes obstinate in sin, God allows them to stay like that as a sign of His justice

lets look at the bible verse about them being blind
Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.

Jesus says that they need healing, but they are not receiving it because they are blind
God allows them to be blind because their hearts are callous

here is another simple thing I just found, I will try to find more latter
Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: "I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved."

 

[Open Heart]

this reeks of Calvinism, making people not responsible for their actions
many good and pious Jews who love God have converted to the Catholic faith, so we can not act like it is impossible for them

Not at all. Calvinism predestines the entire human race into the innies and outies. What I'm telling you about is a unique circumstance that applies only to the Jews. And it's quite biblical.

Romans 11:
8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”

 

[Open Heart]

I will stick with the writings of St. John Chrysostom on this issue, he has shown great wisdom about the enemies of Christ

St. Chrysostom was very holy in many ways, and I respect him for those virtues and for his insight into orthodoxy. But I have one thing against him, as does the Church -- he was an anti-semite.

"Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone." Nostra Aetate 4

 

[LivingWordUnity]

St. Chrysostom was very holy in many ways, and I respect him for those virtues and for his insight into orthodoxy. But I have one thing against him, as does the Church -- he was an anti-semite.

"Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone." Nostra Aetate 4

He criticized the Jews that rejected Christ. He didn't persecute them.

 

[Open Heart]

He criticized the Jews that rejected Christ. He didn't persecute them.

He didn't just criticize them. St. Chrysostom blamed all Jews in all times for deicide. As we know, the Church has condemned this as antisemitism (Nostra Aetate 4)

 

[Rhamiel]

He didn't just criticize them. St. Chrysostom blamed all Jews in all times for deicide. As we know, the Church has condemned this as antisemitism (Nostra Aetate 4)

it is interesting that you seem to only be able to find recent writings on this?
it is like in the past the Church recognized that the Jews needed to convert, but in modern times they have softened up on this?

Matthew 27:25
All the people answered, "His blood is on us and on our children!"

2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

[Open Heart]

it is interesting that you seem to only be able to find recent writings on this?
it is like in the past the Church recognized that the Jews needed to convert, but in modern times they have softened up on this?

Jews converting is another issue. I wish that all Jews could have the fullness of the Gospel that I know.

But we are talking about something else: whether all Jews everywhere in all times are guilty of the murder of Christ (deicide). The Church teaches they are not, and follows up this statement with a general statement against all forms of antisemitism for any reason and by anyone. To reject this is to reject the doctrines taught by an Ecumenical Council.

 

[Open Heart]

Matthew 27:25
All the people answered, "His blood is on us and on our children!"

1. Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

2. No longer does God punish the children for the sins of the Father.

3. Those who said this were a small crowd, not all the Jews in the world.

4. Even if the curse passed to their children (and it didn't) it would have ended there and not passed to their grandchildren.

 

[Open Heart]

2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

And yet again and again, Paul puts the Jews into a special group. They deny Christ not out of personal choice, but because God himself has blinded them.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

He didn't just criticize them. St. Chrysostom blamed all Jews in all times for deicide. As we know, the Church has condemned this as antisemitism (Nostra Aetate 4)

St. John Chrysostom wrote against anyone who rejects Christ, whether they be Jew or Gentile. He said the Jews were wrong for rejecting Jesus Christ. And they were wrong for doing that. But that's not all that he said about the Jews. He also acknowledged the importance that the Jews have in God's plan for salvation.

 

[Open Heart]

St. John Chrysostom wrote against anyone who rejects Christ, whether they be Jew or Gentile. He said the Jews were wrong for rejecting Jesus Christ. And they were wrong for doing that. But that's not all that he said about the Jews. He also acknowledged the importance that the Jews have in God's plan for salvation.

We have copies of St. Chrysostom's series of sermons "Against the Jews" where he singles out Jews for his scorn. He preaches against the practices of Hebrew Catholics for keeping their Jewish identity, which we know to be tremendously wrong. He described the synagogues in his city in the worst possible language, to the point where it was dishonest. And he was a strong proponent of the notion of communal responsibility for deicide -- something the Church has formally repudiated along with the rest of antisemitism in the doctrine of Nostra Aetate 4.

I'm not saying he didn't get anything right. He got many things right. After all, the man was a saint. I'm simply pointing out, as Nostra Aetate says to do, that he was an anti-Semite and that we don't tolerate this.

Nostra Aetate is doctrine, promulgated by an Ecumenical Council. I don't see how anyone can get around it. It is a sin to state that Jews are communally responsible for deicide.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

We have copies of St. Chrysostom's series of sermons "Against the Jews" where he singles out Jews for his scorn. He preaches against the practices of Hebrew Catholics for keeping their Jewish identity, which we know to be tremendously wrong. He described the synagogues in his city in the worst possible language, to the point where it was dishonest. And he was a strong proponent of the notion of communal responsibility for deicide -- something the Church has formally repudiated along with the rest of antisemitism in the doctrine of Nostra Aetate 4.

I'm not saying he didn't get anything right. He got many things right. After all, the man was a saint. I'm simply pointing out, as Nostra Aetate says to do, that he was an anti-Semite and that we don't tolerate this.

Nostra Aetate is doctrine, promulgated by an Ecumenical Council. I don't see how anyone can get around it. It is a sin to state that Jews are communally responsible for deicide.

Context is important. St. John Chrysostom lived in the time of the early Church, when the Church was being persecuted by the Jews and by the government. He could not have been against all Jews since he was well aware that Jesus, Mary, and all of the Apostles are of Jewish blood.

 

[Rhamiel]

is no one else going to point out that Jews who reject Christ are not saved?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

is no one else going to point out that Jews who reject Christ are not saved?

They aren't saved for as long as they reject Christ. But God used their rejection of Jesus as a way to expand God's covenant to include the Gentiles. And the Jews will all be given a last chance to accept Jesus as Messiah when they see him in his glory.

 

[Open Heart]

Context is important. St. John Chrysostom lived in the time of the early Church, when the Church was being persecuted by the Jews and by the government. He could not have been against all Jews since he was well aware that Jesus, Mary, and all of the Apostles are of Jewish blood.

I never said that Anti-Semitism was rational.