What is the "harlot city" in the Book of Revelation?

Constantine the Sinner

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We have copies of St. Chrysostom's series of sermons "Against the Jews" where he singles out Jews for his scorn. He preaches against the practices of Hebrew Catholics for keeping their Jewish identity, which we know to be tremendously wrong. He described the synagogues in his city in the worst possible language, to the point where it was dishonest. And he was a strong proponent of the notion of communal responsibility for deicide -- something the Church has formally repudiated along with the rest of antisemitism in the doctrine of Nostra Aetate 4.

I'm not saying he didn't get anything right. He got many things right. After all, the man was a saint. I'm simply pointing out, as Nostra Aetate says to do, that he was an anti-Semite and that we don't tolerate this.

Nostra Aetate is doctrine, promulgated by an Ecumenical Council. I don't see how anyone can get around it. It is a sin to state that Jews are communally responsible for deicide.
He says the same things about "Greeks", though.

You might try listening to this podcast: Was St. John Chrysostom Anti-Semite? - Search the Scriptures | Ancient Faith Ministries
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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He didn't just criticize them. St. Chrysostom blamed all Jews in all times for deicide. As we know, the Church has condemned this as antisemitism (Nostra Aetate 4)
He blamed all Jews for the deicide because Jews at the time generally supported and taught that Christ deserved to be crucified.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Here is from the Eastern Orthodox New Testament (which is not the same as the Orthodox Study Bible, which is a revised NKJV, whereas the Orthodox New Testament is an Orthodox translation):

Eastern Orthodox Bible.jpg
 
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Open Heart

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Open Heart

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He blamed all Jews for the deicide because Jews at the time generally supported and taught that Christ deserved to be crucified.
Please back this up and give the source.

The Talmud teaches that any Jewish court of Law that uses the death penalty more than once every 70 years is a bloody court. That hardly fits with what you said.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Does he accuse the Greeks of deicide? Does he state Greeks are ripe for killing?
Not, because Greek philosophers made a lot of fun of Jesus, but they didn't really make any statement about him being worthy of death. Greek religion didn't really care about Jesus one way or the other.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Please back this up and give the source.

Did you listen to the podcast?

Ask any Orthodox Jew today, "Did Jesus deserve to die?" Go ahead.

The Talmud teaches that any Jewish court of Law that uses the death penalty more than once every 70 years is a bloody court. That hardly fits with what you said.
And? In the account Josephus gives of the Pharisees killing James the Brother of the Lord, it looks absolutely bloody, but that didn't stop the Pharisees from doing it. And remember, after the end of the Temple, the Pharisees ended up completely controlling Judaism. Furthermore, when was the section of the Talmud you're talking about written? Furthermore, do you not recall the Jews said they couldn't kill Christ anyway when Pilate said for them to punish him, and told him to do it?

Pharasaic Judaism is an apostate religion built on rejecting Christ, every single ancient saint who talked about contemporary Judaism, said this. There was not secular Jewish culture back.

And Greeks were also routinely identified as pagans and with worship of devils, that is the way "Greeks" was used then as well.
 
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Open Heart

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Not, because Greek philosophers made a lot of fun of Jesus, but they didn't really make any statement about him being worthy of death. Greek religion didn't really care about Jesus one way or the other.
Please quote any documents where Jews state that Yeshua the son of Miriam and Joseph is worthy of death. Cite.
 
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Open Heart

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what punishment did the OT have for rebellion against the king?
I'm not sure what you are fishing for. I tried googling the answer but to no avail. My best guess is that the maximum penalty would be death, but that's just the maximum. It doesn't mean that this would be the penalty every time.
 
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Open Heart

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Ask any Orthodox Jew today, "Did Jesus deserve to die?" Go ahead.
Having been Orthodox, I feel qualified to answer. The Orthodox believe that if you base his trial strictly on the gospels, he would be guilty of blasphemy, which by the Old Testament, the maximum penalty is death. But they would also tell you that any Jewish Court of Law that deals out more than one death sentence in a seventy year period is a "bloody court." Thus, it is almost impossible that Jesus would have received a death sentence.

Then there is the issue that the gospel accounts are highly doubted by Jews. They believe the accounts of Jesus have been doctored by Gentiles to conform to a Pagan Greek culture, totally foreign to Jesus' true Jewish identity, who would never claim to be God. They can even advance that Jesus is a Pharisee (see "Jesus the Pharisee" by Orthodox Rabbi Harvey Falk). IOW, they consider the historic Jewish Jesus to be a complete different entity than the "made up" "pagan" Greek Jesus of the Christian church.

Furthermore they acknowledge that his trial was invalid in so many ways, led by a completely corrupt Sanhedrin under Caiphus -- a man so corrupt that he is disparaged in the Talmud. It's verdict cannot be trusted, to say the very least. It is suspected to be a railroading to appease the Romans (if the story happened at all) so they say, because that what the Roman appointed Caiphus and his Sanhedrin were all about.

Many of them don't even think Jesus existed.

These are the remarks of educated Orthodox as I have heard them speak.

Please note that I'm telling this as Orthodox tell it. These are not my personal opinions.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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The "Against the Jews" quote provided in this thread doesn't seem like it was written by St. John Chrysostom since it doesn't sound like him to me. I know the Catholic Encyclopedia says that he did a homily called "Against the Jews," but that doesn't mean that the one quoted here is that same one. I doubt the authenticity of it. Or maybe he had what would today be called a bad Twitter day. So, for his opinion on the Jews, I'll go with what he said in his commentary on Romans 11.
 
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Open Heart

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The "Against the Jews" quote provided in this thread doesn't seem like it was written by St. John Chrysostom since it doesn't sound like him to me. I know the Catholic Encyclopedia says that he did a homily called "Against the Jews," but that doesn't mean that the one quoted here is that same one. I doubt the authenticity of it. Or maybe he had what would today be called a bad Twitter day. So, for his opinion on the Jews, I'll go with what he said in his commentary on Romans 11.
You are being unreasonable. He did a whole series of homilies called "Against the Jews." The text supplied is THE text. The only thing you can argue with is whether it is the best translation. But NO ONE argues that he didn't write these homilies.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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You are being unreasonable. He did a whole series of homilies called "Against the Jews." The text supplied is THE text. The only thing you can argue with is whether it is the best translation. But NO ONE argues that he didn't write these homilies.
It doesn't sound like him to me. That's why I doubt the authenticity of it.
 
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Open Heart

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It doesn't sound like him to me. That's why I doubt the authenticity of it.
And you are going against EVERY scholar. NO ONE says it's not him. However, I appreciate your effort to stay clear of anti-Semitism. Bless your heart.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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And you are going against EVERY scholar. NO ONE says it's not him. However, I appreciate your effort to stay clear of anti-Semitism. Bless your heart.
I'm going by having read St. John Chysostom. The "Against the Jews" that you quoted isn't anything like his commentary on Romans 11, for example.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Having been Orthodox, I feel qualified to answer. The Orthodox believe that if you base his trial strictly on the gospels, he would be guilty of blasphemy, which by the Old Testament, the maximum penalty is death. But they would also tell you that any Jewish Court of Law that deals out more than one death sentence in a seventy year period is a "bloody court." Thus, it is almost impossible that Jesus would have received a death sentence.

You're acting like this declaration of "bloody court" is innately inexcusable (knowing rabbis, some probably say that doesn't mean bad, others say it is only bad in some contexts, and others might even say it means something good, and yet some would say it means harsh, but not necessarily unjust). You admit that Orthodox Jews say Christ deserved punishment for blasphemy (a pretty serious crime in ancient Israel); your own caveat here is that employing the death penalty more than once every seventy years is "bloody"--I ask you, what am I supposed to do with that? Are you saying the Jews put someone to death sooner than seventy years earlier, and therefore Christ's death was a violation of that? I don't think so. I don't think there was any Sanhedrin ruling at the time forbidding more than one death every seventy years.

Then there is the issue that the gospel accounts are highly doubted by Jews. They believe the accounts of Jesus have been doctored by Gentiles to conform to a Pagan Greek culture, totally foreign to Jesus' true Jewish identity, who would never claim to be God. They can even advance that Jesus is a Pharisee (see "Jesus the Pharisee" by Orthodox Rabbi Harvey Falk). IOW, they consider the historic Jewish Jesus to be a complete different entity than the "made up" "pagan" Greek Jesus of the Christian church.

I don't think many thought that then, since these secular ideas about who Jesus was are relatively new.

Furthermore they acknowledge that his trial was invalid in so many ways, led by a completely corrupt Sanhedrin under Caiphus -- a man so corrupt that he is disparaged in the Talmud. It's verdict cannot be trusted, to say the very least. It is suspected to be a railroading to appease the Romans (if the story happened at all) so they say, because that what the Roman appointed Caiphus and his Sanhedrin were all about.

Many of them don't even think Jesus existed.

These are the remarks of educated Orthodox as I have heard them speak.

Please note that I'm telling this as Orthodox tell it. These are not my personal opinions.

The Talmud also disparages Bar Kokhba, but calls the Rabbi who was his principle backer "The Sage of Sages".

Caiaphus was proped up by the Romans, of course he was corrupt. But, then, Judaism today was largely shaped by the Pharisees, the Pharisees were the enemies of the Sadducees; this was a conflict of rabbis vs. priests. So to say a document written by rabbis hundreds of years later, after they control everything, attacks a Sadducee, is not a very meaningful statement. Christ's execution was probably one of the few times the Sadducees and Pharisees were on the same page.
 
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Open Heart

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I'm going by having read St. John Chysostom. The "Against the Jews" that you quoted isn't anything like his commentary on Romans 11, for example.
I disagree. I think his commentary on Romans 11 takes a very pro-Jewish text and destroys every good thing it says about the Jews. But there is simply a limit to how far he can go, because it IS a pro-Jewish text. IOW he can't get blatantly anti-Semitic.
 
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