What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

[renniks]

Another poster once asked: What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

I agree. What if John 6 means exactly what it says? What if Matthew 16:18-20 means exactly what it says, and makes Peter the head of the apostles, and thus the entire Church, and his successors the same?

John 6 means Jesus is the bread of life. That isn't about literally eating his flesh. Eating is equated with belief in that passage.
And on the confession of Peter the church was built. Not on the man, Peter.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Catholic church is the same as the Lord?
Not in the slightest.

Sorry, I've been moving, and haven't been able to address this...I didn't mean that the Church is Jesus, but that Jesus created and instituted the Church and gave the Church the authority to interpret Scripture, codify doctrine, and so on.

The Catholic church did not die for our sins on the cross, was not raised from the dead, did not ascend to the Father nor send the Spirit of God.

No, but the Jesus you and I worship, who instituted the Church did.

It was the Holy Spirit who inspired Scripture to be written and who interprets it to us. Jesus said that the Spirit would take what was his (Jesus') and give it to the 12 disciples, John 16:14. Some of these disciples wrote the Gospels.

Well, Jesus is the Word made flesh, and the Holy Spirit inspires the Church as to how to interpret it. Along with what the Church believed for 1500 years before Protestantism came along, which is also inspired...See, The Word still speaks through the Church.

It was Jesus, our Lord, who said "I am the Bread of life", "I am the true Vine" and "this is my blood, shed for the forgiveness of sins."
It was Jesus who celebrated a final Passover meal with his disciples before his crucifixion, and it was he who told us to do this in memory of him. All of this was from the Lord, not the Catholic church.

It was also Jesus who told us to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life, and Jesus who renamed Simon bar Jonah Peter (Rock) and said upon him (Peter) Jesus would build His Church.

Jesus told his disciples that the Spirit would remind them of everything that he had said - because they would be the ones to proclaim the Gospel and teach the faith to new believers. After the resurrection Jesus stayed on earth for 40 days before he ascended to the Father and taught his disciples, Acts of the Apostles 1:2-3.

Right. The first bishops of the Catholic Church.

Some of the Gospels were written by these disciples; directly, or indirectly (Mark.)

Yes, Mark, who was the Scribe of Peter.

It is the Holy Spirit who inspired these Gospels, and Paul's epistles, to be written and it is He who interprets, and applies, God's word to us.

The Holy Spirit helped keep the Gospels on point, and inerrant, but it was those men who wrote them. The Holy Spirit has guided us as to what they mean, and in what context to understand them. And so we have for 2000 years, fending off all those attempts to veer the true meaning away. The Holy Spirit has kept the Church on track.

When the NT was being compiled the criteria for inclusion was the books that were by Apostles, by close friends/disciples of the apostles, or were true to apostolic teaching. Some books, like the Gospels of Peter and Thomas, did not make it into the canon.

Who do you think established those criteria???

And the Apostles were still Jews; Jews who believed that the Messiah had come - they weren't Catholics.

Oh, yes, they were Jews and Catholics. As we often say, Catholicism came from the Jews.

No he didn't.
If he had said "on PETER I will build my church", that would be clear and unambiguous. Although I have asked what it means in practice to have a church built on Peter and received no reply.

Oh, I have replied to that question and been, of course, rejected by non-Catholics. It means that there was an authority Jesus appointed. The language Jesus used is from Isaiah 22, where the king appointed a Prime Minister who carried the king's authority. Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom.
I don't know about you but I don't go around telling Jesus how he should say something or ask him why he didn't say something so we could know without a doubt 2000 years later what He meant. I trust that the apostles knew, and passed it on to their disciples who spread it and spread it and spread it.

Jesus said "On this ROCK I will build my church".
Catholics say, "oh, he said, 'you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church'; so the church is built on Peter."

Because that's what His apostles, and their disciples understood him to mean...

Others say , "yes he said that, but the Rock on which the church is built is Peter's declaration, revealed to him by God, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God."

That is another way to see it. And that would be true as well. One doesn't eliminate the other.

A church that is built on a human, whatever that means, will be fallible, finite and eventually fail. In this case, Peter denied Jesus - not only failed to admit that he was a disciple, but swore with an oath that he did not know what the servant girl was talking about. I am certain that had anyone said to Peter after Pentecost, "the church is built on you" he would have strongly denied it and pointed people to Jesus. Because that's what he did after the resurrection; he pointed people to Jesus.
A church that is founded by, and built on, the Son of God, however, cannot ultimately fail, even if the devil does his best to inflict wounds along the way.

You're right, anything built solely on a man would be doomed to fail. But the Catholic Church is not built solely on a man. It is built on Christ, and Christ told the apostles that he would send an advocate to guide His Church into all truth. The Holy Spirit keeps our faith true, not any man. The Holy Spirit keeps the popes on track.
Peter did deny Christ, but did you miss the part where Jesus told him he was thinking in human ways, not God's ways? Jesus knew there was no perfect man, that we would need the Holy Spirit to guide us. That's very evident by all the different varieties of Protestants (and, frankly, Catholics for that matter).

Jesus is the foundation of the church and a living stone - Peter said that.

How does that change that Peter is the first Pope that Jesus appointed to lead the Church?

You said:


That implies that either the early church knew something about the Lord's Supper but chose not to write it down so it is not in the NT, or what was written in the NT about the Lord's Supper wasn't what happened, and that 1500 years later someone changed Scripture to reflect what the apostles knew.

Really? Well, the early Church wrote tons about the Eucharist, Paul wrote about it to the Corinthians, John wrote 1/16th of his gospel about it, Matthew and Luke wrote about it and Revelation is all about the Eucharist. What was believed and acted out was exactly what the Hebrews did on the night of Passover, and what they were instructed to do to remember it. (They re-enact it every year)

Claiming that you, or a group, has access to special knowledge that interprets Scripture and which no one else has, sounds just like Gnosticism to me.

I don't claim any special knowledge that's not available to anyone else. If it was only available to a few it would be Gnosticism. All you need to do is read the writings of the Early Church on the matter. This is one reason we don't go by Sacred Scripture alone. We use Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium to help us know what is right.

 

[Root of Jesse]

John 6 means Jesus is the bread of life. That isn't about literally eating his flesh. Eating is equated with belief in that passage.
And on the confession of Peter the church was built. Not on the man, Peter.

Except that Jesus told us that we literally had to eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to have eternal life. Many of his disciples went back to their former lives because it was too hard a saying. Jesus didn't soften at this, in fact, he doubled down, telling us we must gnaw on him.
Regarding Peter, that's just not what it says, it's your interpretation.

 

[renniks]

Except that Jesus told us that we literally had to eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to have eternal life. Many of his disciples went back to their former lives because it was too hard a saying. Jesus didn't soften at this, in fact, he doubled down, telling us we must gnaw on him.
Regarding Peter, that's just not what it says, it's your interpretation.

You totally misunderstand what the hard saying was in John 6. No, they didn't quite get the eating his flesh but what was really hard for them to swallow was him saying he came down from heaven, and equating himself with Yahweh. That's what they sneered at. "Isn't this Mary and Joseph's boy? How can he say he came down from heaven?" They were just there for the free food and the miracles. They were not about to accept him as being God.

 

[Valletta]

You totally misunderstand what the hard saying was in John 6. No, they didn't quite get the eating his flesh but what was really hard for them to swallow was him saying he came down from heaven, and equating himself with Yahweh. That's what they sneered at. "Isn't this Mary and Joseph's boy? How can he say he came down from heaven?" They were just there for the free food and the miracles. They were not about to accept him as being God.

Quite a story Renniks, far from that of the earliest Christians and the Bible itself.

 

[renniks]

Quite a story Renniks, far from that of the earliest Christians and the Bible itself.

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

Seems very plain to me.

 

[Valletta]

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

Seems very plain to me.

You stopped, let's hear what else Jesus said:
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

 

[renniks]

You stopped, let's hear what else Jesus said:
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and this drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life,

Yeah, the eating IS belief that Jesus is the messiah. That he is God.

 

[Valletta]

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life,

Yeah, the eating IS belief that Jesus is the messiah. That he is God.

Ah, what you likely missed is that in Koine Greek Jesus, in John 6:54, changes the word from the more general word for eat (the word used before to the Greek "trogon" which means to "gnaw" or to "chew." In other words, when confronted with disbelief Jesus is more emphatic, using "trogon" so there is no doubt.

 

[renniks]

Ah, what you likely missed is that in Koine Greek Jesus, in John 6:54, changes the word from the more general word for eat (the word used before to the Greek "trogon" which means to "gnaw" or to "chew." In other words, when confronted with disbelief Jesus is more emphatic, using "trogon" so there is no doubt.

So then, he literally wanted them to eat his flesh? Funny how he didn't toss them a few fingers, I mean I'm sure he could do a miracle and grow them back...

 

[Valletta]

So then, he literally wanted them to eat his flesh? Funny how he didn't toss them a few fingers, I mean I'm sure he could do a miracle and grow them back...

That we actually eat His flesh and drink His blood is the "source and summit of the Christian life" according to the Catholic Catechism. The importance of this sacrament is stressed in the Bible:
1 Cor 11:23-29
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
The early Christians also stressed the importance:
"They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrnians 7:1)" St. Ignatius Antioch c. 110 A.D.
"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, AND BY THE CHANGE OF WHICH our blood and flesh is nourished, IS BOTH THE FLESH AND THE BLOOD OF THAT INCARNATED JESUS.: (First Apology, 66) Saint Justin Martyr c. 100-165 A.D.

 

[renniks]

That we actually eat His flesh and drink His blood is the "source and summit of the Christian life" according to the Catholic Catechism. The importance of this sacrament is stressed in the Bible:
1 Cor 11:23-29
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
The early Christians also stressed the importance:
"They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrnians 7:1)" St. Ignatius Antioch c. 110 A.D.
"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, AND BY THE CHANGE OF WHICH our blood and flesh is nourished, IS BOTH THE FLESH AND THE BLOOD OF THAT INCARNATED JESUS.: (First Apology, 66) Saint Justin Martyr c. 100-165 A.D.

What Jesus says in John 6 is clearly symbolic. Saying we eat his flesh isn't necessarily to be taken literally. And I doubt the early church fathers meant it to literal, but a spiritual reality.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You totally misunderstand what the hard saying was in John 6. No, they didn't quite get the eating his flesh but what was really hard for them to swallow was him saying he came down from heaven, and equating himself with Yahweh. That's what they sneered at. "Isn't this Mary and Joseph's boy? How can he say he came down from heaven?" They were just there for the free food and the miracles. They were not about to accept him as being God.

That's not what it says, brother. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. Verse 60, his disciples say "This is a hard saying, who can believe it?" Verse 66 "As a result of this, many of his disciples left.
It is obviously true that they found it hard to believe he was God. But they also had an aversion to eating flesh and blood. They didn't know it was divine flesh.

 

[Root of Jesse]

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life,

Yeah, the eating IS belief that Jesus is the messiah. That he is God.

Riiiiiight...

 

[Root of Jesse]

So then, he literally wanted them to eat his flesh? Funny how he didn't toss them a few fingers, I mean I'm sure he could do a miracle and grow them back...

Funny, more so, that, in an attempt to rescue those who had a hard time believing, Jesus didn't say something like "No, you misunderstood! I was only speaking figuratively..."

 

[Root of Jesse]

What Jesus says in John 6 is clearly symbolic. Saying we eat his flesh isn't necessarily to be taken literally. And I doubt the early church fathers meant it to literal, but a spiritual reality.

Oh, clearly? Then why wasn't it seen clearly until the 1500's?

 

[renniks]

Oh, clearly? Then why wasn't it seen clearly until the 1500's?

It probably was. The early guys didn't exactly define their terms that well.

 

[renniks]

Riiiiiight...

You only read it a certain way because that's what your church tells you.

 

[renniks]

Funny, more so, that, in an attempt to rescue those who had a hard time believing, Jesus didn't say something like "No, you misunderstood! I was only speaking figuratively..."

He wasn't speaking figuratively about coming down from heaven. And they couldn't accept that. He was just the carpenter's son to them.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It probably was. The early guys didn't exactly define their terms that well.

I know from reading that it definitely wasn't.