What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

bbbbbbb

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Where did I say anything, in my reply to you, about the Pope in Rome?

In light of the fact that the discussion here has developed into a marked focus on the RCC doctrine of the papacy, your comment that "proper" authority is found in both the RCC and the EOC, must ring true unless RCC authority trumps that of the EOC.

One might say that a certain capacity of authority resides in such disparate groups as the JW's and the LDS because they also have some things in common with Christendom.

The fact is that the RCC views itself as the fount of truth and grace.
 
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The Liturgist

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It was Luther's sarcasm at its best.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get a very strong sense that orthodox Lutheranism, at least as understood by the LCMS/LCC, is not monergistic. (WELS on the other hand might be monergistic)
 
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The Liturgist

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Edit: the following post was made in error because I completely misread @bbbbbbb ‘s reply.

One might say that a certain capacity of authority resides in such disparate groups as the JW's and the LDS because they also have some things in common with Christendom.

That would be completely inaccurate, because those aren’t Christian churches, they are heretical, oppressive cults. And there is no basis for likening the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox churches to them. Doing so would be akin to likening a Covenanting Presbyterian (a capella exclusive psalmody, like the Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America) church to Islam because of the lack of iconography, which is to say, fallacious.

I don’t think any authentic, Nicene Christian denomination with normal worship services can be likened to a non-Christian religion, because you are comparing two entirely different things on the basis of a non-existant common denominator.

Just to be clear, I actually like and enjoy your posts and regard you as a friend; I particularly enjoyed our recent discussion of Philip Johnston and the Four Seasons restaurant think you are in error on this particular point. But please do not take this as personal criticism: my objection is only with your argument, and not you.
 
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bbbbbbb

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That would be completely inaccurate, because those aren’t Christian churches, they are heretical, oppressive cults. And there is no basis for likening the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox churches to them. Doing so would be akin to likening a Covenanting Presbyterian (a capella exclusive psalmody, like the Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America) church to Islam because of the lack of iconography, which is to say, fallacious.

I don’t think any authentic, Nicene Christian denomination with normal worship services can be likened to a non-Christian religion, because you are comparing two entirely different things on the basis of a non-existant common denominator.

Just to be clear, I actually like and enjoy your posts and regard you as a friend; I particularly enjoyed our recent discussion of Philip Johnston and the Four Seasons restaurant think you are in error on this particular point. But please do not take this as personal criticism: my objection is only with your argument, and not you.

Please note that I did not link either of these cults with the RCC or the EOC. My comment was merely to point out the obvious.

Similarity of beliefs can be ranged on a spectrum with complete uniformity at one end and utter disparity at the other. Toward the first end we will find groups such as the EOC and RCC, as well as the various Lutheran denominations compared with each other and not others, various Anglican branches, etc. At the other end we can find comparison between groups such as the LDS and the RCC - virtually nothing in common other than verbiage.
 
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The Liturgist

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Please note that I did not link either of these cults with the RCC or the EOC. My comment was merely to point out the obvious.

Similarity of beliefs can be ranged on a spectrum with complete uniformity at one end and utter disparity at the other. Toward the first end we will find groups such as the EOC and RCC, as well as the various Lutheran denominations compared with each other and not others, various Anglican branches, etc. At the other end we can find comparison between groups such as the LDS and the RCC - virtually nothing in common other than verbiage.

Oh, okay. I am sorry brother, I totally misread your post. Please accept my apologies.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I get a very strong sense that orthodox Lutheranism, at least as understood by the LCMS/LCC, is not monergistic. (WELS on the other hand might be monergistic)
The Small Catechism says it all in the Third Article of the Apostle's Creed:

You are here: Home / The Small Catechism / Part II / 3rd Article
3rd Article
05 Of Sanctification.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

06 What does this mean? — Answer.
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

You be the judge.
 
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The Liturgist

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The Small Catechism says it all in the Third Article of the Apostle's Creed:

You are here: Home / The Small Catechism / Part II / 3rd Article
3rd Article
05 Of Sanctification.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

06 What does this mean? — Answer.
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

You be the judge.

Well, I believe that, and I am not monergist. There are basically three monergistic belief systems, only one of which can be considered doctrinally non-heterodox, Calvinism; the others are Pelagianism and Universalism.

My understanding is that in the orthodox Lutheran understanding of the faith, one still has free will and could reject the calling of the Holy Ghost, and people are thus not foreordained to damnation as in Calvinism, although Lutheranism edges slightly closer to Monergism than the Arminian Remonstrants, or the Methodists, or the Eastern Orthodox churches (for that matter, Roman Catholicism edges closer to monergism than Eastern Orthodoxy, however, neither church is monergistic).

I want to be sure we are understanding monergism the same way, because when I say I have come to reject monergism, I still believe the grace of the Holy Spirit is required in order for us to be able to choose to follow our Lord, because otherwise our corrupt nature would tend to preclude us from being able to have faith. However, I believe that God wants us to be able to choose willingly to love Him, and so He (in the person of Jesus Christ) sent us the Holy Spirit to serve as our Paraclete, enabling us to make that decision. I positively reject the idea of Pelagianism; we humans cannot save ourselves, and it is due to the action of the Holy Spirit that we can be saved.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Well, I believe that, and I am not monergist. There are basically three monergistic belief systems, only one of which can be considered doctrinally non-heterodox, Calvinism; the others are Pelagianism and Universalism.

My understanding is that in the orthodox Lutheran understanding of the faith, one still has free will and could reject the calling of the Holy Ghost, and people are thus not foreordained to damnation as in Calvinism, although Lutheranism edges slightly closer to Monergism than the Arminian Remonstrants, or the Methodists, or the Eastern Orthodox churches (for that matter, Roman Catholicism edges closer to monergism than Eastern Orthodoxy, however, neither church is monergistic).

I want to be sure we are understanding monergism the same way, because when I say I have come to reject monergism, I still believe the grace of the Holy Spirit is required in order for us to be able to choose to follow our Lord, because otherwise our corrupt nature would tend to preclude us from being able to have faith. However, I believe that God wants us to be able to choose willingly to love Him, and so He (in the person of Jesus Christ) sent us the Holy Spirit to serve as our Paraclete, enabling us to make that decision. I positively reject the idea of Pelagianism; we humans cannot save ourselves, and it is due to the action of the Holy Spirit that we can be saved.
So true, because of free will and the stain of original sin, we can only reject God, it is only by the Holy Spirit calling us.
 
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The Liturgist

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So true, because of free will and the stain of original sin, we can only reject God, it is only by the Holy Spirit calling us.

Indeed, this is the case. However, I do believe that once we are called by the Holy Spirit, we can improve, through His grace, both that imparted directly and in answer to our prayers, and also the sacramental grace we receive in the Church through Baptism, the Eucharist and the various other things which I think we could at least agree are sacramentals. This is what Wesley called Entire Sanctification, or what the Orthodox call Theosis, but it is only possible for those who answer the call of the Holy Spirit and repent.
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way, I have an idea on how to effect ecumenical reconciliation between Protestants and the Eastern churches on the number of sacraments. So, firstly, it is not absolutely established in the Eastern Orthodox church that there are seven sacraments, in that this was not put into effect by a church council, so I have encountered Orthodox Christians who consider additional things to be of a sacramental character, just as there are a minority of Orthodox Christians who believe there are eight, nine or even ten ecumenical councils (they are including the Council of Trullo, which was held in between the fifth and sixth ecumenical councils and served only to adopt canon law, but it was not accepted by the Western church, and the Photian Synod, which rejected the filioque, and the Palamist synod, which upheld the theological explanation of St. Gregory Palamist concerning Hesychasm and mystical theology which we see documented, for example, in the writings of St. Symeon the New Theologian, against St. Gregory’s detractor, Barlaam, who upon loosing the argument at that council, left the Orthodox church and converted to Roman Catholicism, which is now quite ironic, because over the course of the 20th century, with the aid of the Eastern Catholic churches, the Roman Catholic Church began to get into Hesychasm).

Furthermore, the Assyrian Church of the East counts seven sacraments, but they are different from those enumerated by the Roman Catholics, and theoretically, the Orthodox, namely, from an Assyrian source, but with my annotations in parentheses:

1. The Priesthood, which is the ministry of all the other Sacraments.
2. Holy Baptism.
3. The Oil of Unction.
4. The Oblation of the Body and Blood of CHRIST. (By which is meant the Eucharist)
5. Absolution. (By which is meant the absolution granted by clergy for the forgiveness of sin, which historically would have involved auricular confession, although at present, general confession is prevalent and some Assyrians are unaware that their denomination even has confession).
6. The Holy Leaven, namely, the king. (What they mean here is the baking of the bread to be consecrated in the Eucharist).
7. The sign of the life giving Cross.

Now, the interesting thing in all of this is the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox use the term “Sacred Mysteries” rather than “sacraments” except in some English texts. And the Orthodox consensus, at least, is that Baptism and especially the Eucharist are the most important mysteries, and like in Lutheranism, a great stress is put on confession.

So I would propose that, as a means of reconciliation, Baptism and the Eucharist, and, potentially, Chrismation and/or Confession, be called Sacraments, and the other items called Mysteries. So the two “Dominical Sacraments” or “Ordinances” that all Protestants agree on, and potentially Confession, which appears to be sacramental in Lutheranism, although I am not sure if to that extent, would be called sacraments, and the Sacraments would be a subset of the Mysteries, so all Sacraments would be Mysteries, but not vice versa. Then, to cover additional things, for example, the Assyrian instance of the baking of the Eucharistic bread, or the Sign of the Cross, these could also be considered Mysteries, possibly. Beyond that, services such as the Blessing of Water, Funerals and Memorial Services (Pannikhidas in Orthodox terminology), the consecration of Church Buildings, and other things, would be regarded as sacramentals, to use the term Roman Catholics presently use to refer to them.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Indeed, this is the case. However, I do believe that once we are called by the Holy Spirit, we can improve, through His grace, both that imparted directly and in answer to our prayers, and also the sacramental grace we receive in the Church through Baptism, the Eucharist and the various other things which I think we could at least agree are sacramentals. This is what Wesley called Entire Sanctification, or what the Orthodox call Theosis, but it is only possible for those who answer the call of the Holy Spirit and repent.
I agree 100 %; the "stain", while covered by Grace remains until we depart this world. The Word and the Sacraments, Baptism, Confession and Absolution, the Eucharist, (and yes, maybe even Holy Orders, due to the need for the Sacraments to be administered) so that this grace continues to be imparted to the faithful.
 
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The Liturgist

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I agree 100 %; the "stain", while covered by Grace remains until we depart this world. The Word and the Sacraments, Baptism, Confession and Absolution, the Eucharist, (and yes, maybe even Holy Orders, due to the need for the Sacraments to be administered) so that this grace continues to be imparted to the faithful.

We agree upon so much, my dear Canadian brother, eh? ;) :Canada:

There is a slim possibility I might go to Canada in October, depending on conditions on the Via Rail trains, but failing that, I intend to cross the 49th parallel next year at the latest, for my long delayed rail excusion on the Canadian.
 
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