What I just don't understand about the Bible.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Glad you asked, we conjectured in this thread and found an error in whether someone should love the world: 1 John 2:15, John 3:16

It's not the only contradiction either, there are others.

What don't you understand about those Scriptures ? (there is no contradiction at all)

 

[devin553344]

What don't you understand about those Scriptures ? (there is no contradiction at all)

Thanks, but I understand those scriptures, it's quite simple, there in conflict.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thanks, but I understand those scriptures, it's quite simple, there in conflict.

Really? No. I'll look for a commentary for you if you want that shows clearly there is no conflict at all.
If someone understands Yahweh's Plan and Word and Purpose, as He Permits, this is simple,
yet if they reject His Word, it is wrong.

 

[devin553344]

Really? No. I'll look for a commentary for you if you want that shows clearly there is no conflict at all.
If someone understands Yahweh's Plan and Word and Purpose, as He Permits, this is simple,
yet if they reject His Word, it is wrong.

So exactly how are you confusing a simply statement? God can love the world but man cannot?

Then you fall short of the love of Christ. Christ loves the world. Examples of loving the world is feeding the homeless. Being part of your society and making it a better place. Do you see wrong in that? Then you fall short of the love of Christ.

To be in Christ and Christ in you, you must love the world and follow after God.

 

[fhansen]

What I just don't understand about the Bible is how can the writer of Hebrews in one sentence say that salvation is once for all in Hebrews 10:10 and in Hebrews 9:28. Yet in Hebrews 6:4-6 they apparently state that you can lose your salvation by falling away. Hebrews 6:4-6 has been brought up by multiple people who say that you can lose your salvation. It's my opinion that this interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't in fact scriptural since those who have a saving faith will never fall away because God's Holy Spirit works in that person to keep that person in the faith. So why the apparent contradiction in the Bible? And not just between multiple books but between the same Author? I just don't understand this can someone educate me please?

The writer of Hebrews knows what all the writers knew-that salvation is God's intention for all-and all followers should be included. But to say that any particular person is necessarily saved, let alone all the hearers of that letter, is absurd. That's a matter of literary device, of hyperbole for exhortation and encouragement. God, alone, knows whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not with 100% certainty.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So exactly how are you confusing a simply statement? God can love the world but man cannot?

Then you fall short of the love of Christ. Christ loves the world. Examples of loving the world is feeding the homeless. Being part of your society and making it a better place. Do you see wrong in that? Then you fall short of the love of Christ.

To be in Christ and Christ in you, you must love the world and follow after God.

This was already addressed earlier - different "world" (meaning) .
When the meanings are changed from what is written, that can cause an apparent conflict, yes,
but that is not Yahweh's meaning nor His conflict then, is it ?

 

[Sycarton]

I began life living selfishly for many years and ended up spiritually empty, back in the turn of the century I figured out I needed God, so I started going to church and living a better life in accordance with how I thought I should be living. But I didn't feel safe in God until about 3 years ago. Now I just listen to the spirit and do as guided and the feeling of being safe if God stays with me. I used to fear God and judgement, but now I love God and I found it's OK to question church authority and even some translated scripture. If you can't question it then perhaps it wouldn't be the truth is kinda how I look at it. Being a physics study person. I even question God when he communes so that I don't get fooled by false spirits: 1 John 4:1

Glad you asked, we conjectured in this thread and found a conflict in whether someone should love the world: 1 John 2:15, John 3:16

For that last comment I'd say that we arent supposed to love "the world" as in worldly sinful things. The Bible talks about the Bible being inspired by God, and God-breathed. We can't believe lies that the devil puts in our minds. The Bible is the Word of God.

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;"

2 Kings 17:13,14
"Yet the LORD warned Israel and Judah through all His prophets and every seer, saying, "Turn from your evil ways and keep My commandments, My statutes according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you through My servants the prophets." However, they did not listen, but stiffened their neck like their fathers, who did not believe in the LORD their God."

1 Thessalonians 2:13
"13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe."

2 Timothy 2:15
" Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."

 

[devin553344]

This was already addressed earlier - different "world" (meaning) .
When the meanings are changed from what is written, that can cause an apparent conflict, yes,
but that is not Yahweh's meaning nor His conflict then, is it ?

It doesn't mention different worlds. Not that I saw. Did you see something different somehow? The word was world. And it didn't give further clarification. Can you explain yourself?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What I just don't understand about the Bible is how can the writer of Hebrews in one sentence say that salvation is once for all in Hebrews 10:10 and in Hebrews 9:28. Yet in Hebrews 6:4-6 they apparently state that you can lose your salvation by falling away. Hebrews 6:4-6 has been brought up by multiple people who say that you can lose your salvation. It's my opinion that this interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't in fact scriptural since those who have a saving faith will never fall away because God's Holy Spirit works in that person to keep that person in the faith. So why the apparent contradiction in the Bible? And not just between multiple books but between the same Author? I just don't understand this can someone educate me please?

Scholars believe the book of Hebrews was written for Jewish Christians who lived in Jerusalem. So keeping that in mind, as well as the suborn nature stated in scripture of the chosen people, the writer believed it would be impossible to bring back a fallen Jewish Christian. They have once tasted the saving power of Christ, decided the pressures of persecution was too difficult and could not stay the course. They turned back to Judaism for their salvation making Christ of no effect. We know this IS a full out falling away as they know, they tasted and they decided to go back.
Blessings

PS: Impossible is probably a hyperbole as there is always room for a branch that has fallen.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It doesn't mention different worlds. Not that I saw. Did you see something different somehow? The word was world. And it didn't give further clarification. But now you're going to offer one on behalf of John?

I think it was already offered before, with clarification partly, including also how to find out elsewhere on your own without relying on me or anyone else here,
but yes, I'm still willing to find a commentary for you or for others that shows the difference.

 

[devin553344]

I think it was already offered before, with clarification partly, including also how to find out elsewhere on your own without relying on me or anyone else here,
but yes, I'm still willing to find a commentary for you or for others that shows the difference.

Sorry you got the non-edited reply, I edited it to not come across testy Please only respond with scriptural references. I'm not looking for someones opinion.

There is a conflict that perhaps needed clarification by John. But that wasn't offered so as I see it there "is" a conflict. But I'm interested in a clarification from the bible somehow!

 

[gordonhooker]

Really? No. I'll look for a commentary for you if you want that shows clearly there is no conflict at all.
If someone understands Yahweh's Plan and Word and Purpose, as He Permits, this is simple,
yet if they reject His Word, it is wrong.

I to had a hard time working out why one would think they are in conflict - I think these extracts from the New International Commentary explain it fairly well, as a matter of fact the author mentions why they are not in conflict in the 1 John 2 extract.

New International Commentary John 3:16
The statement in v 16 concisely expresses three truths—the universal character of God’s love, its sacrificial nature and its eternal purpose. It is no wonder it has been described as ‘the gospel in a nutshell’. Since the verb used (have) is in the present tense this shows that eternal life is intended to be a present possession. This statement would have been challenging for Jewish hearers who were used to thinking of God as loving only Israel, but it is in line with the idea of universal love found elsewhere in the NT. The word world is used with the usual meaning in this gospel of a place in need of God’s saving grace.

New International Commentary 1 Jn. 2:15-17
Love for the world. 15 John emphasizes world by using the word three times in this verse and another three times in the two succeeding verses. It is an important concept (in this letter he uses the term twenty–three times). Do not love the world, he says, and some see a contradiction here with ‘God so loved the world’ (Jn. 3:16). But that passage speaks of God’s love for all people, whereas this one is concerned with setting one’s heart on worldliness. John makes two points: first, love for the world in this sense is incompatible with love for the Father (cf. Jas. 4:4), and secondly, in any case the world and all that is in it are temporary.
16 The cravings of sinful man (lit. ‘the lust of the flesh’) points to the gratification of our fleshly desires. The lust of his eyes is the strong desire for what is seen, for the outward form of things; it is the lust after the superficial. The boasting of what he has and does (lit. ‘the boastfulness of life’) is the empty haughtiness of the worldly–minded. (With these three things compare the three things that led Eve to disobey God; Gn. 3:6.) None of these has its origin in God (not from the Father). They are all from the world, that world that is but a passing show on its way to ruin. Everything points to totality: evil is found throughout the world.
17 By contrast, whoever does the will of God lives for ever. Obedience is an important part of eternal life.

 

[devin553344]

I to had a hard time working out why one would think they are in conflict - I think these extracts from the New International Commentary explain it fairly well, as a matter of fact the author mentions why they are not in conflict in the 1 John 2 extract.

New International Commentary John 3:16
The statement in v 16 concisely expresses three truths—the universal character of God’s love, its sacrificial nature and its eternal purpose. It is no wonder it has been described as ‘the gospel in a nutshell’. Since the verb used (have) is in the present tense this shows that eternal life is intended to be a present possession. This statement would have been challenging for Jewish hearers who were used to thinking of God as loving only Israel, but it is in line with the idea of universal love found elsewhere in the NT. The word world is used with the usual meaning in this gospel of a place in need of God’s saving grace.

New International Commentary 1 Jn. 2:15-17
Love for the world. 15 John emphasizes world by using the word three times in this verse and another three times in the two succeeding verses. It is an important concept (in this letter he uses the term twenty–three times). Do not love the world, he says, and some see a contradiction here with ‘God so loved the world’ (Jn. 3:16). But that passage speaks of God’s love for all people, whereas this one is concerned with setting one’s heart on worldliness. John makes two points: first, love for the world in this sense is incompatible with love for the Father (cf. Jas. 4:4), and secondly, in any case the world and all that is in it are temporary.
16 The cravings of sinful man (lit. ‘the lust of the flesh’) points to the gratification of our fleshly desires. The lust of his eyes is the strong desire for what is seen, for the outward form of things; it is the lust after the superficial. The boasting of what he has and does (lit. ‘the boastfulness of life’) is the empty haughtiness of the worldly–minded. (With these three things compare the three things that led Eve to disobey God; Gn. 3:6.) None of these has its origin in God (not from the Father). They are all from the world, that world that is but a passing show on its way to ruin. Everything points to totality: evil is found throughout the world.
17 By contrast, whoever does the will of God lives for ever. Obedience is an important part of eternal life.

First you would have to change the word used in the bible to worldliness. Second that implies that worldliness means some thing evil. But when I look at the definition I find nothing evil about it:

world·li·ness
[ˈwərl(d)lēnəs]
NOUN

1. the quality of being experienced and sophisticated.
   "both display wisdom and worldliness of much older men" ·

Thanks for your comment P.S. I've heard that commentary stance before, but I think a huge definition would have to be added instead of changing the word "world" to "worldliness". And the difference between those two words is huge.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="gordonhooker, post: 73495602, member: 301729"]I to had a hard time working out why one would think they are in conflict - I think these extracts from the New International Commentary explain it fairly well, as a matter of fact the author mentions why they are not in conflict in the 1 John 2 extract.

New International Commentary John 3:16
The statement in v 16 concisely expresses three truths—the universal character of God’s love, its sacrificial nature and its eternal purpose. It is no wonder it has been described as ‘the gospel in a nutshell’. Since the verb used (have) is in the present tense this shows that eternal life is intended to be a present possession. This statement would have been challenging for Jewish hearers who were used to thinking of God as loving only Israel, but it is in line with the idea of universal love found elsewhere in the NT. The word world is used with the usual meaning in this gospel of a place in need of God’s saving grace.

New International Commentary 1 Jn. 2:15-17
Love for the world. 15 John emphasizes world by using the word three times in this verse and another three times in the two succeeding verses. It is an important concept (in this letter he uses the term twenty–three times). Do not love the world, he says, and some see a contradiction here with ‘God so loved the world’ (Jn. 3:16). But that passage speaks of God’s love for all people, whereas this one is concerned with setting one’s heart on worldliness. John makes two points: first, love for the world in this sense is incompatible with love for the Father (cf. Jas. 4:4), and secondly, in any case the world and all that is in it are temporary.
16 The cravings of sinful man (lit. ‘the lust of the flesh’) points to the gratification of our fleshly desires. The lust of his eyes is the strong desire for what is seen, for the outward form of things; it is the lust after the superficial. The boasting of what he has and does (lit. ‘the boastfulness of life’) is the empty haughtiness of the worldly–minded. (With these three things compare the three things that led Eve to disobey God; Gn. 3:6.) None of these has its origin in God (not from the Father). They are all from the world, that world that is but a passing show on its way to ruin. Everything points to totality: evil is found throughout the world.
17 By contrast, whoever does the will of God lives for ever. Obedience is an important part of eternal life.[/QUOTE
=========================================
Thank you, yes ...

There doesn't seem to be any real interest to understand this so for now I think I'll just leave it here.
Wait, that's not quite right...... (but worldly type interest doesn't provide revelation of truth) ....

I think it is as others told me when trying to explain something years ago at a yard sale of all places - it is not information that is needed, nor that is more important, but a new heart is needed and that makes all the difference. So that is our (Ekklesia's) prayer for now.....

 

[gordonhooker]

First you would have to change the word used in the bible to worldliness. Second that implies that worldliness means some thing evil. But when I look at the definition I find nothing evil about it:

world·li·ness
[ˈwərl(d)lēnəs]
NOUN

1. the quality of being experienced and sophisticated.
   "both display wisdom and worldliness of much older men" ·

Thanks for your comment P.S. I've heard that commentary stance before, but I think a huge definition would have to be added instead of changing the word "world" to "worldliness". And the difference between those two words is huge.

No problem - so really what you are saying is you have an issue with the word used in the translation of the Greek word kosmos. I am assuming you have not used a Koine Greek dictionary to search the different uses of the word kosmos in the New Testament because it means a few different things depending on how it is used.

Rather than flood you with usage from BDAG I have included a fairly simple list from Mounces Koine Greek dictionary which will give you a number of scripture references on how the word is used.

The list is not exhaustive as the work kosmos is used 186 times in the Greek New Testament.

GK G3180 | S G2889 κόσμος kosmos 186x

(1) pr. order, regular disposition; ornament, decoration, embellishment, 1 Pet. 3:3; (2) the world, the material universe, Mt. 13:35; the world, the aggregate of sensitive existence, 1 Cor. 4:9; the lower world, the earth, Mk. 16:15; the world, the aggregate of mankind, Mt. 5:14; the world, the public, Jn. 7:4; in NT the present order of things, the secular world, Jn. 18:36; the human race external to the Jewish nation, the heathen world, Rom. 11:12, 15; the world external to the Christian body, 1 Jn. 3:1, 13; the world or material system of the Mosaic covenant, Gal. 4:3; Col. 2:8, 20 → universe; world.

 

[Blade]

The short version..... Always have to read BEFORE and AFTER....Hebrews was to the Jewish people that got saved.. and were being persecuted and to get away from that they tried to go back to the old ways so not to get persecuted. This is why Paul (if Paul was the one that wrote Hebrews.. I think he is) talked about still on milk not on meat.

See its talking ..well like someone that just like dabbles in it.. well they TASTED... they were enlightened and one that partaker.. like just shares. Take taste.. did you us TASTE of Christ or hello DRINK it all in. I have tasted somethings in my life and NO WAY did I want any more. They saw this tasted it...yet never sold out. They went back to the old ways. Hebrews 6 4 is not talking about a believer. Nor a backslider. Read.. do you want to repent? The ones Paul was writing about did not. Yet Christ said.. ANYONE that comes to Him He will in no way cast out.

We know that ALL things are possible with our Father.. and with us through Christ. We put on the WHOLE armor of GOD yes? Whats on your head? People still look at Salvation as if its was just some simple choice where you can change it any time you like.

Those whom Paul was writing to.. SAW Christ..SAW what He did.. tasted.. then went back to the old ways. YOU have not lol. Its not about believers. READ BEFORE AND AFTER and then to WHOM was He writing to and why.

YOU have to search YOU have to pray seek. Jesus is real. He has you in His hands. So be at peace

 

[devin553344]

No problem - so really what you are saying is you have an issue with the word used in the translation of the Greek word kosmos. I am assuming you have not used a Koine Greek dictionary to search the different uses of the word kosmos in the New Testament because it means a few different things depending on how it is used.

Rather than flood you with usage from BDAG I have included a fairly simple list from Mounces Koine Greek dictionary which will give you a number of scripture references on how the word is used.

The list is not exhaustive as the work kosmos is used 186 times in the Greek New Testament.

GK G3180 | S G2889 κόσμος kosmos 186x

(1) pr. order, regular disposition; ornament, decoration, embellishment, 1 Pet. 3:3; (2) the world, the material universe, Mt. 13:35; the world, the aggregate of sensitive existence, 1 Cor. 4:9; the lower world, the earth, Mk. 16:15; the world, the aggregate of mankind, Mt. 5:14; the world, the public, Jn. 7:4; in NT the present order of things, the secular world, Jn. 18:36; the human race external to the Jewish nation, the heathen world, Rom. 11:12, 15; the world external to the Christian body, 1 Jn. 3:1, 13; the world or material system of the Mosaic covenant, Gal. 4:3; Col. 2:8, 20 → universe; world.

Thanks, I reviewed the surrounding text where John said love the people, but not the world: 1 John 2:15-17 Because I wanted to see if I had a narrow view. And he is descriptive of what not to love. It appears that he is stating to not love anything but people. Am I correct in this assessment?

I can't love the sunset or the natural view on a hike, or the food I eat for dinner or. It seems like that's in conflict with eat drink and be merry statements: Ecclesiastes 8:15 , and joy of being part of the world and enjoying the world that God created for us. It just seems like it's a dark view to have. It doesn't sound like God at all to me. Like there's something wrong or in conflict still. Does that make sense?

Just for clarification on what love means, it follows the Ecclesiastes theme of eat drink and be merry:

Love: a great interest and pleasure in something.

 

[chilehed]

Yet in Hebrews 6:4-6 they apparently state that you can lose your salvation by falling away.

It says that because it's true. The idea that one cannot lose his salvation was made up a few hundred years ago by false teachers.

 

[gordonhooker]

Thanks, I reviewed the surrounding text where John said love the people, but not the world: 1 John 2:15-17 Because I wanted to see if I had a narrow view. And he is descriptive of what not to love. It appears that he is stating to not love anything but people. Am I correct in this assessment?

I can't love the sunset or the natural view on a hike, or the food I eat for dinner or. It seems like that's in conflict with eat drink and be merry statements: Ecclesiastes 8:15 , and joy of being part of the world and enjoying the world that God created for us. It just seems like it's a dark view to have. It doesn't sound like God at all to me. Like there's something wrong or in conflict still. Does that make sense?

Just for clarification on what love means, it follows the Ecclesiastes theme of eat drink and be merry:

Love: a great interest and pleasure in something.

I don't believe it is quite as simple as that. The context of 1 John is relational between God and believer, believer and believer, and Christ and believer, not believer and ways of the world as in humanity. It really has nothing to do with the beauty of his creation.

 

[Anand Prabhu Antony]

What I just don't understand about the Bible is how can the writer of Hebrews in one sentence say that salvation is once for all in Hebrews 10:10 and in Hebrews 9:28. Yet in Hebrews 6:4-6 they apparently state that you can lose your salvation by falling away. Hebrews 6:4-6 has been brought up by multiple people who say that you can lose your salvation. It's my opinion that this interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't in fact scriptural since those who have a saving faith will never fall away because God's Holy Spirit works in that person to keep that person in the faith. So why the apparent contradiction in the Bible? And not just between multiple books but between the same Author? I just don't understand this can someone educate me please?

Here I give you some personified scriptural references to analyse

Paul said....
2 Timothy 4:10
"For Demas deserted me, because he loved the present age...."

1 Corinthians 5:5
"I(Paul) have decided to hand over such a person to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord".

1 Timothy 1:20
"....Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, in order that they may be taught not to blaspheme..."

Solution:
1 John 5:16-17
"If anyone should see his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he should ask, and He will grant life to him, to those who sin not leading to death. (There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should ask about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.)"

GOD bless....