• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What Happened to Magic?

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,102,886.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
There may be some kind of demonic activity going on in some places in the world, but the ones I was referring to, as being only illusion and illusionists, is like the magic shows you see on TV in America and the like, those are just simply not magic and are only illusionists, etc, that's why I used words like in the "majority of cases", etc, but where pagan religions runs rampant, there could be some actual demonic activity of some kind going on there with those, etc, but in the modernized world and countries, it is mostly just illusion and tricks and illusionists, etc, and that's the kind of "magic" I was referring to, as not really being "magic", etc...

I think true demonic activity with "magic" in the modern world, like the kind most people are entertained by on say like TV and the like, is mostly all just illusion, etc, and the art of just illusion and tricks, etc, and not really anything truly Satanic or demonic, etc, but this could be happening in other places and some parts of the world still, etc...

But I still don't think any of it can ever happen without God's approving of it and/or allowing it also, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Euodius

Are you kitten me right meow?
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2019
426
341
Stafford
✟49,334.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Great example, thanks for this. I will get back to you on this topic about Crowley as soon as i come back.

Basically my stance is, unless it has been confirmed by the Church and/or Science then there isn't enough evidence for it however I do know the many writings about him.

C.S. Lewis the Abolition of Man, very short read, but it has a good section on science and magic... another Inkling, what's his name... wrote a definitive history of Witchcraft. He also wrote The Place of the Lion and The Descent into Hell, can't remember his name... I think Charles something, but his book Witchcraft is a definitive history.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
C.S. Lewis the Abolition of Man, very short read, but it has a good section on science and magic... another Inkling, what's his name... wrote a definitive history of Witchcraft. He also wrote The Place of the Lion and The Descent into Hell, can't remember his name... I think Charles something, but his book Witchcraft is a definitive history.

I've only read Descent into Hell, but I will try Place of the Lion.

Anyway this is a part of my post where this started:
I wont deny things such as the Kabbalah and other ancient Judaistic myths. I can be a bit open to the possibly of it being real but I think the Christ like thing for christians to do is to be skeptic because buying into the glamor of the "power of evil" is giving it credit/praise in itself.

It has to run by science and the church and fully confirmed. With exorcisms, miracles, and other supernatural claims, the Church will demand evidence first. The Vatican requires things such as the person evaluated by doctors first to rule out mental or physical illness. This is why I don't believe half of the exorcisms I see from Protestants who do their exorcisms in their churches/stages because they have don't take science in importance as Catholics do, instead it's preying on the weak minded through a fake stage show that ends up as an embarrassment to the faith. You can see this train of thought of that specific audience in many people here with how they view such silly things like Harry Potter movies, Final Fantasy video games, Yoga, random magicians on tv etc to be invoking evil spirits and doing occultism/magic. It's ridiculous and embarrassment to christianity and nothing more than a source non-christians to have as to why to stay away from Christianity.
Reqouting my post:
like wise we should be wise and take supernatural claims with instant skepticism first, especially when they have been refuted way more than they have been confirmed.

So in return, I've asked for a name of a person who was fully confirmed to have magic powers
Ok. Do you know anyone with demonic superpowers with in our recent history that I can research on?

and instead I get the "you research it yourself" cop out as you will read later on. Most of the books you've referenced such as Campbell's and Descent into Hell does not reference actual magic powers being done by a person.
 
Upvote 0

Kaon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2018
5,676
2,350
Los Angeles
✟111,517.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
This is not a response a mathematician/christian would say when questioned.

In your myopia/opinion, this may be true.


Cite me a source on this "flat, sphere, ball having no specific meaning...".

You aren't even listening/comprehending what I said if you are asking me for this. Reread what you just asked me, and ask yourself if I actually said this. I said exactly what I meant several times to you.

You have locked into your mind your own pre-judgement of me, and what I will say, based on your misunderstanding of what you are asking, and what you want to hear.


It's because our faith is not dependent on the power of magic. We can have no problem in believing in God without it.

I am almost certain do not know what magic is - based on what you have said. So, I can understand why you have said everything you have said.
 
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟161,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There are many examples of magic that was not evil too? ....

The “miracles” disciples of Jesus did are not magic. And I think there is no good magic, because the source is not good.

And if your original question meant that why disciples of Jesus don’t do the same things anymore, it must be asked first, who are really disciples of Jesus. Do you know anyone who calls himself a disciple of Jesus? And how do you know they have not done any miracles?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kaon
Upvote 0

VMaeLove

Selbst ist die Frau
Jul 30, 2019
368
764
29
Saxony-Anhalt
✟131,735.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The “miracles” disciples of Jesus did are not magic. And I think there is no good magic, because the source is not good.

And if your original question meant that why disciples of Jesus don’t do the same things anymore, it must be asked first, who are really disciples of Jesus. Do you know anyone who calls himself a disciple of Jesus? And how do you know they have not done any miracles?

Yes I use the wrong word I guess but you understand what I mean.

Do you have answers to your questions? That is my purpose.
 
Upvote 0

ABCthings

Light
Jun 4, 2019
256
161
Suleja
✟31,543.00
Country
Nigeria
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Demonic power and magic is very real in many parts of the world. In 3rd world countries like Africa and northern Thailand where animism and spirit based religions dominate, the devil uses his power overtly (witch doctors, curses, etc). In America his biggest weapon is disbelief in God and Satan, why would Satan show his hand here and in other post religious societies. He doesn’t want people to believe in spirits here, but in places where they already do as a culture he tries to subjugate them with it.

my recent podcast episode with a pastor from Malawi is about this concept :)
True. Due to civilization in this part of the world (Africa). Some people have be made to forget their traditions that why they die mysteriously after unknowingly commiting abomination.
 
Upvote 0

Kaon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2018
5,676
2,350
Los Angeles
✟111,517.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
The “miracles” disciples of Jesus did are not magic. And I think there is no good magic, because the source is not good.

And if your original question meant that why disciples of Jesus don’t do the same things anymore, it must be asked first, who are really disciples of Jesus. Do you know anyone who calls himself a disciple of Jesus? And how do you know they have not done any miracles?

Miracles aren't magic, and there is no such thing as good magic - because magic is about manipulating nature to fit in ones own will. The context is going against the structure of the Most High to create your own destiny.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1213
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
You aren't even listening/comprehending what I said if you are asking me for this. Reread what you just asked me, and ask yourself if I actually said this. I said exactly what I meant several times to you.

You have locked into your mind your own pre-judgement of me, and what I will say, based on your misunderstanding of what you are asking, and what you want to hear.
Ok, I will go research and ask at academic areas around the net on what you said.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tturt

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2006
16,148
7,618
✟970,894.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God moving on our behalf is definitely good. It's not magic. There are numerous Scriptures about Jehovah Rapha, our healer.. Plus hundreds of other titles, names, and attributes that are His.

Some cant tell when something occurs if it's Godly or not. But the demons recognized who Jesus was such as in Mark 5 "And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit."

John 10:10 is a good Scripture to use for evaluation purposes. 'The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Of course, sometimes demonic activity isn't as obvious as in Acts 19 "And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

Then an example of God giving us life and life more abundantly as He used Paul "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: " Acts 19. I Cor 12. We can be His hands and feet. There are healings and miracles today.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
In your myopia/opinion, this may be true.


You aren't even listening/comprehending what I said if you are asking me for this. Reread what you just asked me, and ask yourself if I actually said this. I said exactly what I meant several times to you.

You have locked into your mind your own pre-judgement of me, and what I will say, based on your misunderstanding of what you are asking, and what you want to hear.

I am almost certain do not know what magic is - based on what you have said. So, I can understand why you have said everything you have said.

I am going to respond to you in context now. The way you responded by coping out with "research yourself" and then this latest response after asking you a citation/reference was already telling me that something was off about you - a Mathematician/Physicist.

I went to other forums physics and science forums and copy pasted all your responses on this matter, and the responses I'm getting in all forums everyone is saying you are being dishonest. Please think about how you how talk about how you follow God yet you are stooped to this?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Kaon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2018
5,676
2,350
Los Angeles
✟111,517.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
I am going to respond to you in context now. The way you responded by coping out with "research yourself" and then this latest response after asking you a citation/reference was already telling me that something was off about you - a Mathematician/Physicist.

I went to other forums physics and science forums and copy pasted all your responses on this matter, and the responses I'm getting in all forums everyone is saying you are being dishonest. Please think about how you how talk about how you follow God yet you are stooped to this?

Ok.

Since I am dishonest in faith and science according to you, we don't have to continue our exchanges.

Cheers.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
How can we see His miracles when we can not see through our own desire to be right. Pride is what makes us weak. The illusion we have it all figured out.

We do not leave Him much to work with.

This is what I've been saying. There are doctrines that program people to be so reliant on the "magic" surrounding evil that even question that part makes them react as if their entire faith is being questioned. We have people here who are adults who think such silly things such harry potter, random video games, and performing magicians are real and it's almost sad to see why so many people think low of Christians on an intellectual level. It's almost ego over faith to tell you the truth.
 
Upvote 0

Kaon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2018
5,676
2,350
Los Angeles
✟111,517.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
How can we see His miracles when we can not see through our own desire to be right. Pride is what makes us weak. The illusion we have it all figured out.

We do not leave Him much to work with.

Sometimes humans, for some reason, don't believe they can actually "know" something with certainty. So, often in discussions or arguments, when someone knows 1+1=2, they look arrogant for standing by it - it seems prideful. Besides, people who "know" things are a threat - which is why there is so much social and cultural programming to respond to it a certain way (we have seen it in these forums).

There are some things people have the luxury to be ignorant of, and some people are cursed with knowledge - it isn't just a poetic burden. It is true that we should always be open to change and correction, but we shouldn't chastise people for knowledge - especially if it happens to clash with out social/cultural/academic/spiritual understanding.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain anything without necessarily accepting it.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Ok.

Since I am dishonest in faith and science according to you, we don't have to continue our exchanges.

Cheers.

We don't and this last one. That "according to you" line signified that you are still pushing your dishonesty. How is this not a big deal to you especially after your post #116 in where you state things such as "the truth is too much to handle and everything else after that..." and you were actually lying just for your beliefs to win and to make me look ignorant?

I will not exchange with you anymore but here is one of the threads:
Need help understanding what a claimed physicist is saying about Flat Earth

I'm hoping you won't sign up and link this CF thread over there and show all the bad stereotypes christians have towards others.
 
Upvote 0

VMaeLove

Selbst ist die Frau
Jul 30, 2019
368
764
29
Saxony-Anhalt
✟131,735.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Sometimes humans, for some reason, don't believe they can actually "know" something with certainty.

If you be very open minded you could argue that successfully. ;)

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain anything without necessarily accepting it.

I 100% agree, because that no exchange should ever come away with anger or bitter. A humble educated mind also knows that their 'knowledge' is all based on other theories.
If you ask enough questions I am not sure how you 100% prove something.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kaon
Upvote 0

Euodius

Are you kitten me right meow?
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2019
426
341
Stafford
✟49,334.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
So, when it comes to the discussion of any topic, there is the question of 'topicality' or what constitutes the definitional boundaries of the topic discussed. 'Magic' certainly exists a phenomena (appearance) in our world, that's why we are discussing it. 'Magic' is best defined as the practices of a collection of occult religious schools with discrete worldviews, including (but not limited to) a discrete cosmology, epistemology, anthropology, and a politic. We can largely define these occult religious schools as the singular religion known as Western Esotericism. Like all religions, the doctrines and practices largely deal with symbols and a typology which are used to create an environment of catechesis by which the doctrines of the faith are internalized by the acolytes (Protestantism is partially defined by the removal of symbols and typology out of Christianity, so it is difficult for protestants to understand the impact and meaning of symbols. This is why I am not protestant.) Scientific Materialism (a philosophical school) lacks an epistemology capable of dealing with these topics (or much of anything.) These practices are carried through society in the same way a person carries any of their beliefs through society. Whether or not 'magic' has supernatural power is a question, but underneath the question on whether the philosophies of Western Esotericism has power capable of affecting societal change.

As Albert Pike wrote,
"
The Science is a real one only for those who admit and understand the philosophy and the religion; and its process will succeed only for the Adept who has attained the sovereignty of will, and so become the King of the elementary world: for the grand agent of the operation of the Sun, is that force described in the Symbol of Hermes, of the table of emerald; it is the universal magical power; the spiritual, fiery, motive power; it is the Od, according to the Hebrews, and the Astral light, according to others.
Therein is the secret fire, living and philosophical, of which all the Hermetic philosophers speak with the most mysterious reserve: the Universal Seed, the secret whereof they kept, and which they represented only under the figure of the Caduceus of Hermes."

And Hall,
“The practice of magic – either white or black – depends upon the ability of the adept to control the universal life force – that which Eliphas Levi calls the great magical agent or the astral light. By the manipulation of this fluidic essence the phenomena of transcendentalism are produced. The famous hermaphroditic Goat of Mendes was a composite creature formulated to symbolize this astral light. It is identical with Baphomet the mystic pantheos of those disciples of ceremonial magic, the Templars, who probably obtained it from the Arabians."

And Levi,
Black Magic is really only a graduated combination of sacrileges and murders designed for the permanent perversion of a human will and for the realization in a living man of the hideous phantom of the demon. It is therefore, properly speaking, the religion of the devil, the cultus of darkness, hatred of good carried to the height of paroxysm: it is the incarnation of death and the persistent creation of hell.

Let me give you a list of recommended reading on the topic (I will not give you books which are initiatory.);

The best book to understand the consequences of ideas (including those of 'magic') is C.S. Lewis's The Abolition of Man.

Here is an excerpt, but I recommend the whole book.

I have described as a ‘magician’s bargain’ that process whereby man surrenders object after object, and finally himself, to Nature in return for power. And I meant what I said. The fact that the scientist has succeeded where the magician failed has put such a wide contrast between them in popular thought that the real story of the birth of Science is misunderstood. You will even find people who write about the sixteenth century as if Magic were a medieval survival and Science the new thing that came in to sweep it away. Those who have studied the period know better. There was very little magic in the Middle Ages: the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries are the high noon of magic. The serious magical endeavour and the serious scientific endeavour are twins: one was sickly and died, the other strong and throve. But they were twins. They were born of the same impulse. I allow that some (certainly not all) of the early scientists were actuated by a pure love of knowledge. But if we consider the temper of that age as a whole we can discern the impulse of which I speak.

There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the ‘wisdom’ of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious—such as digging up and mutilating the dead.


The best book for beginners on Christian Typology is The Language of Creation

The foremost history on the topic of magic (in the modern sense) is Charles William's Witchcraft

Other notable books that are relevant;
Christopher Partridge's The Occult World
Christopher Partridge's The Re-Enchantment of the West (volume 1 and volume 2)
Seraphim Rose's Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future
Seraphim Rose's Nihilism
Damien Broderick’s "Outside the Gates of Science"
Chris Carter’s “Parapsychology and the Skeptics.”
Rupert Sheldrake's The Sense of Being Stared At: And Other Unexplained Powers of Human Minds
Dean Radin Ph.D.'s Entangled Minds: Extrasensory Experiences in a Quantum Reality
Robert McLuha's Randi's Prize: What Sceptics Say about the Paranormal, Why They Are Wrong and Why It Matters


I will conclude with the writing of the venerable Seraphim Rose;

The omnivorousness of modern man, born of his need to find something to replace Christ — this attitude that underlies both his mania for experimentation and his celebrated ‘tolerance’ (which is quite limited, actually)—can only come to a natural end in magic, moral perversion, occultism, which might be defined as the ‘ultimate in experimentation.’ ...
Modern science has given itself totally to power… [The] viewpoint [of science and magic] is the same. Both are preoccupied with phenomena and their manipulation, with wonders, with results. Both are an attempt at wish fulfillment, an attempt to bend reality to one’s own will. The difference is simply this: science (modern science) is systematic magic; science has found a method, where magic works in fits and starts…. Yes, scientists can consider themselves rational (in the narrowest sense of the word) as long as they keep themselves buried in the laboratory, enslaved by technique. But to someone not so enslaved, someone capable of looking at things in a larger frame of reference — do not the results of science today resemble a magical landscape?

Edit: I personally do believe that magical practices can have supernatural effects, because these practices are built on a framework of communication with, control of, and worship of, supernatural entities we call demons. Does the average wiccan gain any outreaching supernatural power? No. Probably not usually. They receive illusions, deceptions, and delusions. Plenty of stories of people leaving the New Age due to bad experiences and psychological consequences with encountered entities. For example, yoga sometimes results in episodes of psychosis (connected with the opening of so-called chakras.) Not very many stories of these people being able to enact change in the world supernaturally, but they certainly think they do.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟161,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
...
Do you have answers to your questions?...

Bible tells people who remain in the word of Jesus, are truly his disciples.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

I actually don’t know people who say that they are disciples of Jesus. But I believe those who are, can do miracles with God’s power. But I believe also that God's power can’t be used to any bad or wrong things. And disciples of Jesus want that God’s will happens, rather than their will. That means, it is possible that things don’t go always as people ask.

And then there is also the problem, how to prove miracle happened. Even if such things happen, people can make all kind of explanations why it was not really a miracle. I think miracles are to serve some meaningful purpose. If there is no good purpose, I don’t expect them to happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VMaeLove
Upvote 0

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
2,381
1,076
AZ
✟147,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There are many examples of magic that was not evil too? People doing miracle things for good as well. I understand there is some thing like magic in the world now, but it does not seem the same? Good and evil.

I wonder why and when it changed. I have not found an answer in the Bible yet.
Power corrupts and absolute Power corrupts absolutely.
The people who used magic for good did so reluctantly. It was always at God's command although I haven't studied every instance in the Bible. Moses comes to mind, acting at God's behest, not of his own volition or will It is a very strong power and can easily become dark and evil I dabbled in "magic" in my atheist day and I scared myself. It was possibly for some good because I finally considered my immortal soul (which I insisted did not exist) and whether I wished to risk it for parlor tricks of the lowest kind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VMaeLove
Upvote 0