What Happened to Magic?

[Cis.jd]

How can you refute something you don't believe in, or never experienced?

Mainly because many have been scientifically refuted already, so why should I just believe another one?

Academia is highly arrogant in its self-appointed arbitration of truth. You don't have to praise something to reconnoiter it.

But look at how you've talked about Academia so upsettingly (arrogant) in it's exposure against what you believe as "the dark forces". You are defending it from being refuted as if you would with faith.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

The Bible has many examples of people other than Jesus doing things that are seeming not possible today. Why is that do you think?

*shrug* I see magic everywhere.

 

[VMaeLove]

*shrug* I see magic everywhere.

Like what?

 

[Kaon]

Mainly because many have been scientifically refuted already, so why should I just believe another one?

Scientific refutation is a subjectivity of Enlightenment: science doesn't study the supernatural.

How can you comment on the existence of something you do not study or believe in? You cant; you are just postulating.

But look at how you've talked about Academia so upsettingly (arrogant) in it's exposure against what you believe as "the dark forces". You are defending it from being refuted as if you would with faith.

I am am academic (mathematician/physicist); I know the environment, and I am being critical, not arrogant. Why is science the philosophy for which you choose to acknowledge for your reality? Because of social pressure of "not believing in science", or because it works? Academia is self appointed arbitration of truth, otherwise why would people deride others for not believing in science? But, science is merely one method to analyzing, understanding and exploiting reality(ies). If you have the mentality that science is the barometer of truth, you will be ignorant of the rest of the world(s) around you.

Academia doesn't expose dark forces, the Most High does. In fact, "dark forces" are, by definition, powerless anyway. However, it would be foolish to ignore the opportunity to reconnoiter your enemy - since this is a war for our souls. Does that mean practicing magic? No. But, it does mean figuring out what it is so you don't burn people who can read at the stake for allegedly practicing magic, for example.

Much of human history is bloody, and a big part of why it is bloody is because of ignorance. It is amazing to me that humans do not believe magic exists given the availability of history, and information. But, then I realize how entrenched Western culture is in Enlightenment, and it is the reason why I am become critical of academia. Science is one drop in the well of reality.

 

[Cis.jd]

Scientific refutation is a subjectivity of enlightenment: it doesn't study the supernatural.

Sure. But here it has debunked something of being supernatural, so we know it's not.

How can you comment on the existence of something you do not study or believe in? You cant; you are just postulating.

I don't believe in things that are refuted. This is not postulating, it's just stating the facts that Christians today have to accept.

I am am academic (mathematician/physicist); I know the environment, and I am being critical, not arrogant. Why is science the philosophy for which you choose to acknowledge for your reality? Because of social pressure of "not believing in science", or because it works? Academia is self appointed arbitration of truth, otherwise why would people deride others for not believing in science? But, science is merely one method to analyzing, understanding and exploiting reality(ies). If you have the mentality that science is the barometer of truth, you will be ignorant of the rest of the world(s) around you.

Academia doesn't expose dark forces, the Most High does. In fact, "dark forces" are, by definition, powerless anyway. However, it would be foolish to ignore the opportunity to reconnoiter your enemy - since this is a war for our souls. Does that mean practicing magic? No. But, it does mean figuring out what it is so you don't burn people who can read at the stake for allegedly practicing magic, for example.

Much of human history is bloody, and a big part of why it is bloody is because of ignorance. It is amazing to me that humans do not believe magic exists given the availability of history, and information. But, then I realize how entrenched Western culture is in Enlightenment, and it is the reason why I am become critical of academia. Science is one drop in the well of reality.

As a Physicist and a Christian, you should immediately question "demonic-supernatural" because it should be inconsistent with your own rational thought and your own theology. The Church itself demands evidence first before confirming they have to take action, like wise we should be wise and take supernatural claims with instant skepticism first, especially when they have been refuted way more than they have been confirmed.

Your faith should not be reliant on the supernatural being real as rumored, in fact you should not be so attached to it that you think you have to defend it.

Here is a question, what do you think of those christian Pastors who heal their audience by waving their 15 thousand dollar blazers at them? They claim it's from God, do you believe them at all? If you don't believe that and then why do we instantly give consideration that some random scrub has powers from the dark side?

 

[Kaon]

Sure. But here it has debunked something of being supernatural, so we know it's not.


I don't believe in things that are refuted. This is not postulating, it's just stating the facts that Christians today have to accept.

You do not know anything - that was the point of my critique on academia. Science is one facet of reality and truth, not the truth.

As a Physicist and a Christian, you should immediately question "demonic-supernatural" claims because not only should it be a problem for your knowledge but also your theology. Any claim of super powers should be met with instant skepticism and demand an actual explanation. The Church itself demands evidence first before confirming they have to take action, therefore we should as well. At this time, there hasn't been 1 single psychic-paranormal person who has overcome any scientific tests at all. These guys, especially the ones exposed by James Randi, where all believed by Christians to have dark-powers, but then they end up getting humiliated by science.

I have done that for 10 years of my academic life, and my entire pedestrian life. Things, including religion and science, are not what they seem. Just because it works doesn't make it the unique solution.

For example, how could a mathematician in academia believe the earth is not a spherical ball? And yet, here I am. Not everything is as it seems, and we choose what we make authority. The Most High is my authority, and He has promised His people that He would instruct them on the truth, not socially acceptable paradigms in science, religion, medicine and culture.

Your faith should not be reliant on the supernatural being real as rumored. It should have 0 effect on you to see it being exposed as fake by science, yet here you are trying to defend it's power from science?

Lets take a look at a different example. Lets go for some christian Pastors who claim they can heal through the power of the Holy Spirit. You see them waving their 15 thousand dollar blazers at a crowd of sinners and they all get knocked out because of "holy power".. do you believe that at all? You don't have to believe their power is of God, but do you actually think there is a chance they are doing this supernaturally? They are not. They are frauds, a disgrace to christianity, and they are the same as every single "i have powers" fraud out there.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

You have to use judgment. You example began with character flaws that would yell exploitation.

I am utterly amazed at how Christians can be so incredulous of magic when the Savior is a Man who died, and then came back to life - and His ministry was about how to recognize these devices of the enemy, and how to protect against them. This is not good for the upcoming Beast (system) test Believers will face; one supernatural event and it will have the entire world believing it is a god - precisely because they are incredulous/inexperienced in it. This is one reason why it will be able to deceive the elect if it was possible.


Our world systems work hard to lie to us - out of ignorance and determination - and it includes science and religion.

 

[Cis.jd]

You do not know anything - that was the point of my critique on academia.

Ok. Do you know anyone with demonic superpowers with in our recent history that I can research on?

I don't want anyone before the age of science because that could be loaded with different mythos, and that is a bag of "what if's". Also, not demonic possessions recorded by the church (Emily Rose) because that is an entirely different topic.

For example, how could a mathematician in academia believe the earth is not a spherical ball? And yet, here I am.

Wait, just to make sure I understand this better... You are a mathematician and Physicist that believes in flat earth?

 

[Euodius]

It still exists. Anyone who has traveled (not as a tourist) in the third world can probably provide you with stories. However, they might need convincing to tell you the stories, because many of us quickly learn to keep our mouths shut about it while at home (because people don't believe the stories.)

 

[Euodius]

And stay far away from it. It is always very evil. You can feel the spiritual darkness (unless you are desensitized to it.) It is very oppressive and causes a specific kind of 'thumping' ache in the brain.

 

[Kaon]

Ok. Do you know anyone with demonic superpowers with in our recent history that I can research on?

I don't want anyone before the age of science because that could be loaded with different mythos, and that is a bag of "what if's". Also, not demonic possessions recorded by the church (Emily Rose) because that is an entirely different topic.

You have several examples from the faith - the man tied to chains at the edge of the city is an example... from the one the Redeemer sent off. Why do you think he needed to be held with chains (plural)?

If you really want to know about demonic influence (possession, oppression, and intimidation) then perhaps you should ask a priest. I know for a fact there are priests that are living archives of demonology - some are even academics.

Wait, just to make sure I understand this better... You are a mathematician and Physicist that believes in flat earth?

Do you see what I mean? Before I qualified what I believe there is already a charge of incredulity.

The plane of existence we live on is a manifold base with an octahedral geodesic thermodynamically "hard" dome made of molecules and electromagnetic radiation. A ball is a very specific thing in mathematics; this plane of existence isn't a ball.

I have had several engaging discussions with other academics on these forums who, while they may not agree with me, can at least entertain the possibility.

But just curious, have you ever seen above high orbit? Do you realize what the Van Allen belts are, and why it is impossible for a human (or even satellites) to take an image from high orbit or beyond to gauge the side of this plane of existence?

The idea of the earth is a "sphere", but terra firma (including the water) is not a ball, or spherical.

Jesus died to pay the price for sin, not to protect us from magic.

What do you think magic is? Manipulating nature to fit your will is not holy. It is one facet we need to know about in this war for our souls. Know it, understand it exists, and move on to the next thing - there are plenty of other "fantastic" things in reality that, if you believe magic is unbelievable, will make your mind explode no doubt. Much of it required a knowledge vector besides science (like experience or wisdom).

 

[Kaon]

It still exists. Anyone who has traveled (not as a tourist) in the third world can probably provide you with stories. However, they might need convincing to tell you the stories, because many of us quickly learn to keep our mouths shut about it while at home (because people don't believe the stories.)

It is unfortunate.

 

[Cis.jd]

You have several examples from the faith - the man tied to chains at the edge of the city is an example... from the one the Redeemer sent off. Why do you think he needed to be held with chains (plural)?

This is not in the context with what I am asking. I've asked in our modern times, during the age where we have science, to show me anyone who has been confirmed magic powers. You keep repeating the same christian fundamentalist song of how science can't do this.. so if that is the case then stop circling around and give me one reported confirmed event that a person has shown unexplained dark supernatural magic.

If you really want to know about demonic influence (possession, oppression, and intimidation) then perhaps you should ask a priest. I know for a fact there are priests that are living archives of demonology - some are even academics.

I've already said 'demon possessions" such as Emily Rose is of a different topic, I've even stated that "the church itself demands evidence before taking action, therefore we should as well".. why did you ignore this?

Do you see what I mean? Before I qualified what I believe there is already a charge of incredulity.

The plane of existence we live on is a manifold base with an octahedral geodesic thermodynamically "hard" dome made of molecules and electromagnetic radiation. A ball is a very specific thing in mathematics; this plane of existence isn't a ball.

No. I don't see what you mean, I do understand what you are describing now that i've just fully read it.. nevertheless, I'm not certain what you are saying: are you a physicist/mathematician who believes the earth is flat?

 

[Kaon]

This is not in the context with what I am asking. I've asked in our modern times, during the age where we have science, to show me anyone who has been confirmed magic powers. You keep repeating the same christian fundamentalist song of how science can't do this and

you even said it in your last paragraph

So stop circling around and give me one reported event where it has been confirmed that a person has shown unexplained dark supernatural magic.

Oh, I see. You will have to do your own homework. If you really care about the truth, then you will spend the time to do your own research instead of asking other people.

I've already said 'demon possessions" such as Emily Rose is of a different topic, I've even stated that "the church itself demands evidence before taking action, therefore we should as well".. why did you ignore this?

I did not. You assume there is a difference in what you are asking for, and what you have distinguished as acceptable.

No. I don't see what you mean, i'm not going to go into your tl;dr explanation. Just tell me straight, are you a physicist/mathematician who believes the earth is flat?

Right. This is why knowledge always peaks - simply because the truth (or even an idea that is contrary to status quo) is too much to handle. And, even if it is manageable our collective short-sightedness and minute attention span won't allow for the possibilities of it to be anyway.

By the way, I did answer you straight; I told you exactly what I thought the shape of this plane of existence was - a manifold covered by an octahedral geodesic thermodynamically "hard" dome made of electromagnetic energy and light matter. Terra firma is not flat; it is a manifold.

The "Flat earth" discussion is an exercise in myopia: mathematically, "flat, sphere, ball" and such have specific meanings - it isn't just water-cooler nomenclature for the purposes of pointing at those who don't agree.

 

[Cis.jd]

Oh, I see. You will have to do your own homework. If you really care about the truth, then you will spend the time to do your own research instead of asking other people.

I am doing my homework by asking you for someone I can research on. So instead of finally giving me a name of a confirmed report of someone with actual supernatural-magic powers, you go: "research it yourself". You just made a cop out, and a strange one too given that you stated to be Physicist/Mathematician this is the last form of reply someone of your profession should have when asked to provide evidence.

I did not. You assume there is a difference in what you are asking for, and what you have distinguished as acceptable.

There is a difference. Possession is not magic, it's not an ability. It is a spirit using a human as a physical vessel, and I've have stated it repeatedly: "the Church demands evidence before taking action, therefore we should too..."

Right. This is why knowledge always peaks - simply because the truth (or even an idea that is contrary to status quo) is too much to handle. And, even if it is manageable our collective short-sightedness and minute attention span won't allow for the possibilities of it to be anyway.

You can't just answer with a yes or no?



---
This is exactly what i've been talking about, certain christians (mostly protestants) don't realize that they reveal the amount of faith they have towards evil that they don't realize the attachment they have to it whenever it is facing scrutiny.

 

[Euodius]

Here is something that may help... Joseph Campbell's The Masks of God, Vol 1. Primitive Mythology includes many references to shamanic magic and rituals - which while he considers it all to be scammery, the 'magic' remains incredibly powerful, including getting modern initiated serial murderers out of all charges and pubic hair snakes that are ingested to the death of romantic rivals. If you can get through that book without vomiting or going insane from the evil ideology of Campbell and the sadistic blood rites described in his book, then you'll garner some examples.

But I tell you what, magic is defined as taking the natural symbolism of reality and perverting it (usually through perverse acts coupled with the perversion of symbols) as a means of inflicting change on the larger reality. That is why Crowley engaged in sodomy - because it's potent for magic as the ultimate inversion of reproduction - and is symbolic for death. And that is why Levi wrote that the art of magic was for the magician to destroy his own soul, for by that means the magician finds his power.

 

[Kaon]

I am doing my homework by asking you for someone I can research on. So instead of finally giving me a name of a confirmed report of someone with actual supernatural-magic powers, you go: "research it yourself". You just made a cop out, and a strange one too given that you stated to be Physicist/Mathematician this is the last form of reply someone of your profession should have when asked to provide evidence.

A cop out is asking someone else for something when you can find out for yourself.

There is a difference. Possession is not magic, it's not an ability. It is a spirit using a human as a physical vessel, and I've have stated it repeatedly: "the Church demands evidence before taking action, therefore we should too..."

How can you say possession is not magic when you don't know what magic is? The base definition of magic is manipulating nature in order to fit your will - what do you think possession is? Entities that manipulate another vessel in order to fit its will is magic.

You can't just answer with a yes or no?

I told you exactly what I thought the shape of this plane of existence was - a manifold covered by an octahedral geodesic thermodynamically "hard" dome made of electromagnetic energy and light matter. Terra firma is not flat; it is a manifold.

The "Flat earth" discussion is an exercise in myopia: mathematically, "flat, sphere, ball" and such have specific meanings - it isn't just water-cooler nomenclature for the purposes of pointing at those who don't agree.

Do you not know what that means, or are you just assuming that the nature of the shape and reality of this plane of existence can be summed up by a simple yes or no - especially when the question is purposefully generalized to a misunderstood pedestrian paradigm?

---
This is exactly what i've been talking about, certain christians (mostly protestants) don't realize that they reveal the amount of faith they have towards evil that they don't realize the attachment they have to it whenever it is facing scrutiny.

Are you talking about yourself? I don't have faith in evil, I am reconnoitering my enemy. My Father is the Most High, and there is no entity in Creation or beyond that can compare to Him. You can choose to be scared of evil and pretend it doesn't exist - I used to use the same arguments you used when I was incredulous about spirits. But, then I experienced it for myself.

You do not realize how much of a luxury it is to be so blind to the facets of reality - especially what humans call "supernatural" and "magic". This is how I know you have never experienced that facet of reality - people who have are on the other side of your argument (the ones who are called crazy and silly), and if they are lucky they have to live with the information alone (because usually people kill people that know about the supernatural, or magic).

As I said, it is amazing that Christians do not believe in magic, or the supernatural - given the faith is full of it. At some people, people are going to stop putting their character and bodies on the line to try to help us wake up to this reality - and we will have nothing else to scoff at.

 

[Kaon]

But I tell you what, magic is defined as taking the natural symbolism of reality and perverting it (usually through perverse acts coupled with the perversion of symbols) as a means of inflicting change on the larger reality. That is why Crowley engaged in sodomy - because it's potent for magic as the ultimate inversion of reproduction - and is symbolic for death. And that is why Levi wrote that the art of magic was for the magician to destroy his own soul, for by that means the magician finds his power.

Most people don't understand what magic is.

 

[Cis.jd]

A cop out is asking someone else for something when you can find out for yourself.

edit: never mind, i am not going to be baited by respecting your posts enough to be worth any attention after this reply of yours. This is not a response a mathematician/christian would say when questioned.

Do you not know what that means, or are you just assuming that the nature of the shape and reality of this plane of existence can be summed up by a simple yes or no - especially when the question is purposefully generalized to a misunderstood pedestrian paradigm?

Cite me a source on this "flat, sphere, ball having no specific meaning...".

As I said, it is amazing that Christians do not believe in magic, or the supernatural - given the faith is full of it.

It's because our faith is not dependent on the power of magic. We can have no problem in believing in God without it.

 

[Cis.jd]

Here is something that may help... Joseph Campbell's The Masks of God, Vol 1. Primitive Mythology includes many references to shamanic magic and rituals - which while he considers it all to be scammery, the 'magic' remains incredibly powerful, including getting modern initiated serial murderers out of all charges and pubic hair snakes that are ingested to the death of romantic rivals. If you can get through that book without vomiting or going insane from the evil ideology of Campbell and the sadistic blood rites described in his book, then you'll garner some examples.

But I tell you what, magic is defined as taking the natural symbolism of reality and perverting it (usually through perverse acts coupled with the perversion of symbols) as a means of inflicting change on the larger reality. That is why Crowley engaged in sodomy - because it's potent for magic as the ultimate inversion of reproduction - and is symbolic for death. And that is why Levi wrote that the art of magic was for the magician to destroy his own soul, for by that means the magician finds his power.

Great example, thanks for this. I will get back to you on this topic about Crowley as soon as i come back.

Basically my stance is, unless it has been confirmed by the Church and/or Science then there isn't enough evidence for it however I do know the many writings about him.

 

[GingerBeer]

The Bible has many examples of people other than Jesus doing things that are seeming not possible today. Why is that do you think?

I think magic is exactly where it always was; in one's imagination and not in reality.