What Happened to Magic?

[Euodius]

Power corrupts and absolute Power corrupts absolutely.
The people who used magic for good did so reluctantly. It was always at God's command although I haven't studied every instance in the Bible. Moses comes to mind, acting at God's behest, not of his own volition or will It is a very strong power and can easily become dark and evil I dabbled in "magic" in my atheist day and I scared myself. It was possibly for some good because I finally considered my immortal soul (which I insisted did not exist) and whether I wished to risk it for parlor tricks of the lowest kind.

Moses wasn't doing anything with magic. He worked miracles. There's a very massive distinction.

 

[QvQ]

Moses wasn't doing anything with magic. He worked miracles. There's a very massive distinction.

The difference between magic and miracles may be exactly that. Miracles are God working through human agency. Magic is different in source, motive and while possible for the good, it is a power than always felt evil to me because of that fine distinction as to source and motive.

 

[Cis.jd]

Whether or not 'magic' has supernatural power is a question, but underneath the question on whether the philosophies of Western Esotericism has power capable of affecting societal change.

And this is the topic. The actual supernatural abilities that are said to come out of it. For example, someone here referenced performers such as David Coperfield, these people doing magic tricks is common knowledge that shouldn't be debated or doubted. It connects with the Egyptians during the time of Moses. They weren't doing magic abilities but tricks because magic abilities are not real.

The hocus pocus or psychic like abilities as referenced should not even be talked about and it's almost just another form of silly christian fanaticism. The quotes you gave are all trying to explain what black magic actually is, and it's not like in the form that you see some people here when they react to Harry Potter movies.

Does the average wiccan gain any outreaching supernatural power? No. Probably not usually. They receive illusions, deceptions, and delusions... snip

For example, yoga sometimes results in episodes of psychosis (connected with the opening of so-called chakras.) Not very many stories of these people being able to enact change in the world supernaturally, but they certainly think they do.

I will need a credible source of psychosis happening from Yoga. I don't believe at all that any of those chakra's are real, mainly because it has never been proven to be true and has always been proven false. Tai Chi is an example, it is the same as yoga - it involves Chakra's, Chi's, Ki Energy opening of mind.. It's all fiction because these guys are obliterated by MMA fighters in seconds. I recall one Tai Chi expert tell a Jiu Jitsu fighter that once he managed to focus his chi energy to the center, he can't be moved. The Tai Chi does the standing yoga positions to harness his energy, the BJJ guy agrees to wait till he finishes, now after the Tai Chi fighter was done the BJJ hooks him by the leg, takes his to the ground and chokes him out. Then there was this Nagato Sensei who was challenged at his dojo, the Nagato Sensei accepted the challenge. The Nagato walks in blind folded, kneels to the ground, states that after he is inviting the challenger to try to attack him and the challenger goes behind and makes him squeal with a rear naked choke. Where is the chakra?

 

[Euodius]

And this is the topic. The actual supernatural abilities that are said to come out of it. For example, someone here referenced performers such as David Coperfield, these people doing magic tricks is common knowledge that shouldn't be debated or doubted. It connects with the Egyptians during the time of Moses. They weren't doing magic abilities but tricks because magic abilities are not real.

The hocus pocus or psychic like abilities as referenced should not even be talked about and it's almost just another form of silly christian fanaticism. The quotes you gave are all trying to explain what black magic actually is, and it's not like in the form that you see some people here when they react to Harry Potter movies.




I will need a credible source of psychosis happening from Yoga. I don't believe at all that any of those chakra's are real, mainly because it has never been proven to be true and has always been proven false. Tai Chi is an example, it is the same as yoga - it involves Chakra's, Chi's, Ki Energy opening of mind.. It's all fiction because these guys are obliterated by MMA fighters in seconds. I recall one Tai Chi expert tell a Jiu Jitsu fighter that once he managed to focus his chi energy to the center, he can't be moved. The Tai Chi does the standing yoga positions to harness his energy, the BJJ guy agrees to wait till he finishes, now after the Tai Chi fighter was done the BJJ hooks him by the leg, takes his to the ground and chokes him out. Then there was this Nagato Sensei who was challenged at his dojo, the Nagato Sensei accepted the challenge. The Nagato walks in blind folded, kneels to the ground, states that after he is inviting the challenger to try to attack him and the challenger goes behind and makes him squeal with a rear naked choke. Where is the chakra?

I highly doubt Chakra or Ki exists - that is merely occult philosophy (of an Eastern kind as opposed to Western Esotericism, but a lot of the philosophy is similar.) Ki is the rough equivalent of the life energy the western occultists I quoted talk about and Chakra has a lot to with the Caduceus in western occultism. The goal of Yoga, in the Eastern context, is to make the person spiritual passive so that the yogi may obtain power by becoming possessed by the Kundalini spirit (a demon.) I don't believe these energies actually exist, but the practice of yoga does exist because it has effects on people. I don't doubt that demonic possession is a possible result of yoga.

"While such experiences are typically labeled pathological by Western clinicians, they can be identified as part of spiritual awakening in Eastern meditative traditions." In some way, it is likely that yoga exists as an occult system for the purposes of producing psychotic episodes (i.e. a religious experience.) A Yogi would say the psychotic episode is the chakra opening. One of the possible delusions that result is the delusion of power, but it doesn't mean there is reality behind the delusion.

Yoga works, from a Christian perspective, by disassociating the soul and body through placing the body into unnatural positions - leading to delusion.

Here is a credible scientific article about yoga induced psychosis.
Psychiatry Online

 

[Cis.jd]

I highly doubt Chakra or Ki exists - that is merely occult philosophy (of an Eastern kind as opposed to Western Esotericism, but a lot of the philosophy is similar.) Ki is the rough equivalent of the life energy the western occultists I quoted talk about and Chakra has a lot to with the Caduceus in western occultism. The goal of Yoga, in the Eastern context, is to make the person spiritual passive so that the yogi may obtain power by becoming possessed by the Kundalini spirit (a demon.) I don't believe these energies actually exist, but the practice of yoga does exist because it has effects on people. I don't doubt that demonic possession is a possible result of yoga.

"While such experiences are typically labeled pathological by Western clinicians, they can be identified as part of spiritual awakening in Eastern meditative traditions." In some way, it is likely that yoga exists as an occult system for the purposes of producing psychotic episodes (i.e. a religious experience.) A Yogi would say the psychotic episode is the chakra opening. One of the possible delusions that result is the delusion of power, but it doesn't mean there is reality behind the delusion.

edit: here is a link
Is Bikram Yoga Safe?
Hot Yoga: Is It Super-Heated Exercise or a Health Danger?

The cause of these illness are scientifically explained, nothing involving magic, occult, or whatever.

Yoga works, from a Christian perspective, by disassociating the soul and body through placing the body into unnatural positions - leading to delusion.

Here is a credible scientific article about yoga induced psychosis.
Psychiatry Online

You have misread your source. First of all Bikram Yoga is also called Hot Yoga, it is normally practiced in a room ranging above 100F, so it is already obvious as to why it has caused psychological problems to some people. It's not because of "unnatural positions", "disassociating the soul/body", or supernatural-magic that being provoked/invoked from the positions.. there is no supernatural connections with it other than superstition.

edit:here are some sources
Hot Yoga: Is It Super-Heated Exercise or a Health Danger?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...0db00a-e1a3-11e7-bbd0-9dfb2e37492a_story.html

So this is scientifically explained. This is not an example of any magic or occult. Yoga and the mysticism around is an old superstition.

 

[Euodius]

You have misread your source. First of all Bikram Yoga is also called Hot Yoga, it is normally practiced in a room ranging above 100F, so it is already obvious as to why it has caused psychological problems to some people. It's not because of "unnatural positions", "disassociating the soul/body", or supernatural-magic that being provoked/invoked from the positions.. there is no supernatural connections with it other than superstition.

Note the nesting category - Bikram is a subset of yoga. In the same way tantric yoga is a subset of yoga.

Seriously, just pull up Google Scholar and do so searches.

 

[Cis.jd]

Note the nesting category - Bikram is a subset of yoga. In the same way tantric yoga is a subset of yoga.

Seriously, just pull up Google Scholar and do so searches.

Yes. Bikram is also called hot yoga. This is already medically explained.

 

[JSRG]

And this is the topic. The actual supernatural abilities that are said to come out of it. For example, someone here referenced performers such as David Coperfield, these people doing magic tricks is common knowledge that shouldn't be debated or doubted. It connects with the Egyptians during the time of Moses. They weren't doing magic abilities but tricks because magic abilities are not real.

I can absolutely believe that the staff turning into a snake (Exodus 7:10-12) was just a trick, especially as it was even explained earlier in this topic how one can pull off that trick.

But it also states that after Aaron and Moses turned the water of the Nile into blood and summoned a plague of toads, the Egyptian magicians were able to do the same thing (Exodus 7:20-22, Exodus 8:6-7). How does one accomplish those sorts of things through simple non-supernatural magic tricks?

 

[Euodius]

I can absolutely believe that the staff turning into a snake (Exodus 7:10-12) was just a trick, especially as it was even explained earlier in this topic how one can pull off that trick.

But it also states that after Aaron and Moses turned the water of the Nile into blood and summoned a plague of toads, the Egyptian magicians were able to do the same thing (Exodus 7:20-22, Exodus 8:6-7). How does one accomplish those sorts of things through simple non-supernatural magic tricks?

Or the Witch of Endor and Samuel.

 

[Euodius]

Yes. Bikram is also called hot yoga. This is already medically explained.

sigh... The point is that yoga is meant, from it's conception, to create the state of psychosis as observed in the medical entry. The existence of yoga itself points to it's efficacy in creating the occasional or rare success. Heating the room may increase the efficacy of the practice. But you reject this because it is medically explained. However, if yoga by just normal contortions can cause the phenomena, then this can be medically explained too. sigh... You need to read some philosophy of science, I think, I recommend Alvin Platina and some of the books cited above. You aren't going to find what you are looking for with the theory of knowledge you are working from... I tried the same thing 7 years ago. First, you need to disentangle philosophy and science. If am speaking of phenomena from different philosophical schools, then you need to be able to understand the difference in explanatory realms. Secondly, you need to recognize science as being a nested structure of philosophy - the scientific method cannot justify the scientific method, therefore it is itself a dogmatic religious presupposition. It's funny because your medical explanation is superstitious itself as it is fundamentally nested within a non-scientific theory of knowledge. You need a more holistic approach, because the spiritual and physical are not separate fields. You cannot remove yoga from it's purpose to do science on it. You learn nothing of the function of an animal by cutting it in two and bidding it walk. "We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful."

 

[Cis.jd]

sigh... The point is that yoga is meant, from it's conception, to create the state of psychosis as observed in the medical entry. The existence of yoga itself points to it's efficacy in creating the occasional or rare success. Heating the room may increase the efficacy of the practice. But you reject this because it is medically explained. However, if yoga by just normal contortions can cause the phenomena, then this can be medically explained too. sigh... You need to read some philosophy of science, I think, I recommend Alvin Platina and some of the books cited above. You aren't going to find what you are looking for with the theory of knowledge you are working from... I tried the same thing 7 years ago. First, you need to disentangle philosophy and science. If am speaking of phenomena from different philosophical schools, then you need to be able to understand the difference in explanatory realms. Secondly, you need to recognize science as being a nested structure of philosophy - the scientific method cannot justify the scientific method, therefore it is itself a dogmatic religious presupposition. It's funny because your medical explanation is superstitious itself as it is fundamentally nested within a non-scientific theory of knowledge. You need a more holistic approach, because the spiritual and physical are not separate fields. You cannot remove yoga from it's purpose to do science on it. You learn nothing of the function of an animal by cutting it in two and bidding it walk. "We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful."

No, There is no phenomena at all going on or being gained. You need to let go of these superstitions and just embrace the fact that this "demon stuff" is scientifically proven to be false many years ago.

I don't understand how you are coming to the assertion that the medical explanation is additionally superstitious. Where are you getting this from? There was a study back in 2008 about heat waves in Adelaide, South Australia and found that hospital admissions for mental disorders increased when the temperature was above 80°, with schizophrenics being at highest at risk.

Christians have to stop criticizing another civilizations ancient traditions/beliefs by auto-affiliating it with conjuring satan. Just because it doesn't recognize God or his teachings doesn't mean it's on satan's side.

 

[Cis.jd]

I can absolutely believe that the staff turning into a snake (Exodus 7:10-12) was just a trick, especially as it was even explained earlier in this topic how one can pull off that trick.

But it also states that after Aaron and Moses turned the water of the Nile into blood and summoned a plague of toads, the Egyptian magicians were able to do the same thing (Exodus 7:20-22, Exodus 8:6-7). How does one accomplish those sorts of things through simple non-supernatural magic tricks?

The Egyptian where able to turn the river red, but not into blood. You can make red water with hydrochloric acid. I don't know about the frogs but magicians can pull rabbits out of hats or birds out of their sleeves. They couldn't do anything when the plagues started going to illnesses and hail.

 

[Euodius]

No, There is no phenomena at all going on or being gained. You need to let go of these superstitions and just embrace the fact that this "demon stuff" is scientifically proven to be false many years ago.

I don't understand how you are coming to the assertion that the medical explanation is additionally superstitious. Where are you getting this from? There was a study back in 2008 about heat waves in Adelaide, South Australia and found that hospital admissions for mental disorders increased when the temperature was above 80°, with schizophrenics being at highest at risk.

Christians have to stop criticizing another civilizations ancient traditions/beliefs by auto-affiliating it with conjuring satan. Just because it doesn't recognize God or his teachings doesn't mean it's on satan's side.

You are making a lot of false assumptions here, about me, about the motivations of people, and about the nature of knowledge. As a result I'm speaking past you and you aren't saying relevant things while thinking you are. You are doing the same thing Stephen Hawking as he praises the Copernican Principle and the conquering of philosophy by science while immediately proceeding to reinstate the anthropic principle that was overthrown by the Copernican principle (as he did in The Grand Design.) If the Copernican Principle is so great, then why does Hawking return to the anthropic principle - meanwhile saying that science has conquered superstition while returning and affirming the very superstition he says science conquered? You are doing the same thing and you don't even realize it. You don't have a theory of knowledge that can delineate between superstition and science and that's clear from your responses to me (you don't understand me.) So, how do you plan on going about studying the topic?

 

[Cis.jd]

You are doing the same thing Stephen Hawking as he praises the Copernican Principle and the conquering of philosophy by science while immediately proceeding to reinstate the anthropic principle that was overthrown by the Copernican principle (as he did in The Grand Design.) If the Copernican Principle is so great, then why does Hawking return to the anthropic principle - meanwhile saying that science has conquered superstition while returning and affirming the very superstition he says science conquered? You are doing the same thing and you don't even realize it.

I am not denying philosophy. I do think there are truths with in the philosophies of other ancient religions such as Shinto, Buddhism, and Hinduism it's just described in their own mythical ways of beliefs. The heart of the matter in regards to their philosophies and their teachings of trying to better the human mind is nothing I see false. It's just the symbology used to describe some of it is what is myth.

What I am going at is the christian accusation towards it, as shown in Yoga, because of it being based on superstition.

Now since you brought up Hawking returning to anthropic principle, I would like you to enlighten me on why he chose to return to it as part of his no-boundary principle? What is the reason behind it, please? And at the same time why does this pose as support as to why I should just believe the "occult-mythos" behind Yoga. Since I don't have a theory of knowledge and didn't understand anything you said...

 

[Euodius]

I am not denying philosophy. I do think there are truths with in the philosophies of other ancient religions such as Shinto, Buddhism, and Hinduism it's just described in their own mythical ways of beliefs. The heart of the matter in regards to their philosophies and their teachings of trying to better the human mind is nothing I see false. It's just the symbology used to describe some of it is what is myth.

What I am going at is the christian accusation towards it, as shown in Yoga, because of it being based on superstition.

Now since you brought up Hawking returning to anthropic principle, I would like you to enlighten me on why he chose to return to it as part of his no-boundary principle? What is the reason behind it, please? And at the same time why does this pose as support as to why I should just believe the "occult-mythos" behind Yoga. Since I don't have a theory of knowledge and didn't understand anything you said...

So, the Hindu practice of tying a young maiden to a roof torturing her to death as slowly as possible to make it rain (by merit of the amount of her tears)?

And what of the aboriginal practice of subincision to create the male vagina to return to the hermaphroditic Adam?

What about the Polynesian practice of having all the male youths gang-rape a young maiden and then killing her and the last male that finishes by means of dropping logs on them so that they can be cannibalized?

These are just to better the mind?

Seriously, I could go on, I read all of Joseph Campbell. He's quite fine with this, as the sacrificial victim ceases to be an individual and becomes the archetype, so it's quite fine to murder them. All I said about Yoga is exactly what Joseph Campbell said about Yoga - and he's, by the way, a student Sri Ramakrishna and a peer of Vivekananda.

As for the last paragraph, read up on it. You can Read Dr. Wolfgang Smith's review of Hawking's book as he goes over it more comprehensively than I'm willing to do for you?

 

[Cis.jd]

So, the Hindu practice of tying a young maiden to a roof torturing her to death as slowly as possible to make it rain (by merit of the amount of her tears)?

And what of the aboriginal practice of subincision to create the male vagina to return to the hermaphroditic Adam?

What about the Polynesian practice of having all the male youths gang-rape a young maiden and then killing her and the last male that finishes by means of dropping logs on them so that they can be cannibalized?

These are just to better the mind?

Seriously, I could go on, I read all of Joseph Campbell. He's quite fine with this, as the sacrificial victim ceases to be an individual and becomes the archetype, so it's quite fine to murder them. All I said about Yoga is exactly what Joseph Campbell said about Yoga - and he's, by the way, a student Sri Ramakrishna and a peer of Vivekananda.

Practices? We were talking about Philosophies which is an entirely different topic.
example: "Shut out the Physical World and control the Mind... It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles".

These are agreeable but it's the myths involving energy, the universe, and spirit that is added on that isn't. Just because I can agree with some of their philosophies doesn't mean that I think their religious views are true so I am not cosigning with everything.

The point is their spiritual practices have no real supernatural effects. It's superstition. Instead of evidence to support it we have only have it refuted, sadly Christians also believe it and apparently defend it's legitmacy. Lets not be hypocritical with the "evil acts" reports because Christianity isn't clean from that either, in fact records show Christians have done worse.

ediit: If you are going to respond to this, can you provide references of the Hindu and Polynesian practices you talked about?