What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

Douggg · Aug 19, 2023

RandyPNW said:
Nor am I clear that the Antichrist is the 2nd Beast.

The Antichrist does not become the false prophet, the second beast of Revelation 13.

The Antichrist becomes the beast-king, the mortally wounded but healed head.

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The composite beast out of the sea in Revelation 13:1-2 is the kingdom of the beast-king.

The remaining text of Revelation, beginning in Revelation 13-3, focuses on the mortally wounded but healed head, that particular king (the seven heads are seven kings) as the beast.

Douggg · Aug 19, 2023

RandyPNW said:
Yes, that's what I said. I had you right then. Doesn't make sense to me, but obviously it does to you. I wouldn't talk about me as a husband, father, and citizen without clarifying that I'm talking about me! So if I mention each of these functions, I cannot conclude that each function belongs to a single person unless somehow they are explicitly linked to me!

Well, that is an imperfect analogy.

husband, father, citizen are common functional roles.

Differently.... the little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, and the beast-king are one-of- a kind functional roles.

Who that single person who will fulfill all those functional roles, we don't know precisely who he is - right now.

Jonathan_Gale · Aug 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
In this post I will not touch the nature of robes too much yet.

Chapter 7 consists of two visions inserted inbetween the opening of the sixth and seventh seals.
Its purpose is to assure us of two mighty divine preservations before the visions of world judgment are seen.

Verses 1 through 8 show the preservation of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel through the 3.5 year time.
That is through the winds of God's judgments are unleashed during that period.
"
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth nor on the sea nor on any tree.

And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,

Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (Rev. 7:1-3)

Verses 9 through 17 is the second inserted vision about preservation. And here is where we come to the determination about
who it talks about.

"After these things I saw, and behold a great multitude . . . ".
We are told who they are by the questioning elder in verses 13-17.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where did they come from?(v.13)
And I said to him, My lord, you know. And he said to me, These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (v.14)

Whereas for a long time I thought "the great tribulation" in verse14 should be the 3.5 years, I had a change of understanding.
Here "the great tribulation" I would teach is the entire history of the nations on earth through all ages from the fall of Adam.

It is through much tribulation ALL the Gentiles must enter into the kingdom of God.
Establishing the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith and saying that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:22)

The whole of human history through which all the nations pass is here called "the great tribulation."
The number is enumerable -
After these things I saw, . . . a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, . . . (v.9a) if of the totality of earth's history since Adam.

Compare:
Revelation 5:9 - And they sing a new song, saying: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Romans 11:25 - For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this mystery (lest you be wise in yourselves), that hardness has come upon Israel in part, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in;
Acts 15:14,19- Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles to take out from them a people for His name. (v.14)
Therefore I judge that we do not harass those from the Gentiles who are turning to God,

Whereas the preservation of the sealed Israelites pertains to the time of the 3.5 years -
Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads (v.3)
the number "which no one could number out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands." (v.9)
if of the totality of earth's history since Adam.

They are seen as raptured "standing before the Lamb" proving that through the total tribulation of human history
an gigantic number which no one could number enjoy an eternal feast of tabernacles. Palms branches in their hands
signify victory over tribulation they have undergone for the Lord's sake.

The second inserted vision also strongly implies that the rapture of the believers should begin to transpire before or at the sixth seal.
Chapter 7 assures us prior to the seven trumpet blasts:
1.) God will preserve a remnant of Israelites from the twelve tribes in the 3.5 years.
2.) Generally God will preserve through all of human history's great tribulation a crowd from all nations to enjoy
an eternal feast of tabernacles.

That's a good analysis. One thing I'd like to differ though is that "great tribulation(s)" in 7:14 covers all the church age from Christ to the end since the robes for the great multitude of saints were "washed in the blood of the Lamb". Before that, all of God's people had been in Hades, also known as Sheol or the grave in the OT. When Abraham died, he was "gathered to his people" (Gen. 25:8), so were Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Moses and Aaron and all the kings of Israel. They reunited with their forefathers after they died, and after Christ died, He went down to Hades to set them free, for He holds the key of David (Rev. 1:18, 3:7-8). The thief on the cross might have been included in this category.

It's very important to understand the "fullness of the Gentiles", also known as "commonwealth of Israel". That's the complete global body of Christ's church, also the "number of their fellow servants and brethren" reference in Rev. 1:6.

And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Lk. 21:24)
or I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Rom. 11:25)
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 1:6)

In most pre-trib eschatology, the four horsemen are considered as the beginning of the end time tribulation, but that can't be correct based on this understanding of the complete church, because the church is not complete yet, it's only complete in the sixth seal, obviously that couldn't happen before the first seal, right? I believe those four horsemen were a visualization of all kinds of trials and tribulations throughout the church age, which alludes to Matt. 24:4-8. Those are "signs of the times," you may think it's the end, and you'll hear about all the doom and gloom, that's not "the end of the age," not yet. The definitive end, again, is the completion of the global church (Matt. 14),

Then I wanna address the 144,000, there're so many wild speculations about this crowd that get people confused. These 144,000 were called the "firstfruits to God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4), that's their identity. To understand what that means you have to go back to the Torah. Firstfruit was one of the seven festivals, the first sunday after Passover, and it always falls in the festival of Unleavened Bread, the whole week after Passover.

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Lev. 23:9-11)

This festival is a festival of harvest, a sheaf from the harvest was brought to the high priest, who shall "wave it before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf." This ritual symbolizes the end time gathering of the 144,000, where they are the sheaf, Jesus the Lamb is the High Priest who presents them before the Lord:

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God. (Rev. 14:1-5)

And after that, the Great Multitude is the harvest the reaping of the earth (Rev. 14:14-16), that is the whole harvest, of which the 144,000 is just a small sample. During Jesus's ministry he made many parables and references of reaping and harvesting, this is the fulfillment. He will gather the wheat and burn the tares.

Jonathan_Gale · Aug 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
There is no question that the white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb would mean Justification of their living through Christ's redemption.

But here is the problem with thinking robes cannot mean different things.
The marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in Heaven according to Revelation 19.

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. (v.7)

If in the parable of the expelled guest means an unredeemed unbeliever is dismissed from the celebration because he arrives
presumptiously and naively ill-dressed (Matt. 22:10) that would mean that an unbeliever was raptured to heaven. (?!?)

And those slaves went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both evil and good, and the wedding feast was filled with those reclining at table.
But when the king came in to look at those reclining at table, he saw there a man who was not clothed with a wedding garment,
And he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless. (Matt. 22:10-12)

Do you beleive that both Christians and unbelievers will BOTH be raptured to heaven and THEN the Lord would expel those
unbelievers? I do not believe this. So before we talk more about how robes could have different meanings in the Bible, see
that the dismissed "friend" of the King in the parable of Matt. 22:1-13 should not be an unredeemed unbeliever taken to heaven.

Though he is dealt with harshly for arriving presumptiously unprepared, it does not say he goes to the eternal punishment.
It says he is sent to "outer darkness." This is temporary unpleasant suffering of "loss" along the same concept of some
being saved yet so as through fire in First Corinthians 3:15b - ". . . he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Let me speak to different meanings of robes in another post.

Those "ill dressed" guests are not necessarily unbelievers, they are carnal believers who have either defiled their garments (Rev. 3:4) or they're spiritually naked (Rev. 17-18). These are the ones who will lose their reward of the royal melchizedik priesthood.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 19, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
Despite my acute awareness of how dividing and sensitive this topic is in the Christian community, I have to ask since the Holy Spirit has put this on my mind and I just couldn't shake it off. You guys, like me, probably have heard the "rapture of the church" a million times that you've grown numb to it, there're these hollywood movies about it, there're heated debates about the timing and validity of it, but this term is still a puzzling to me, no one has ever given a clear definition. When I asked, they immediately hid behind the shield of a dictionary which reads "upcatching" or "snatch" without any furthur detail. If I inquire for furthur detail, they just stonewall me with more lectures on ancient Greek lexicon, which was really frustrating!

Ironically, by pure luck I accidentally read an article on this topic from Jerusalem Post, which correctly states that "rapture" is a christian doctrine about MASS RESURRECTION at the end times. That was such an epiphany to me. The doctrine of "rapture" is mainly developed from two portions of the Scripture from 1 Thess. and 1. Cor.:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thess. 4:16-17)

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

If you carefully examine the CONTEXT, you'll see that both so called "proof texts" are plainly and directly talking about resurrection. That not only fits into the grand narrative of the bible, but also OT prophecy in Dan. 12:2 and Ez. 37:5. It was called a "mystery" because although the concept of resurrection was recorded in the prophecies, but not in the Torah, the first five books of the bible. Since the resurrection of Christ, it's no longer a mystery, the same power that raised Christ from the dead will also raise us from the dead.

And then there comes the sad and harsh reality - in order to be resurrected, we will die first, like all generations before us, like the Lord himself who "lived, died, and came alive forevermore." (Rev. 1:18) That's not what you get fed up with from the pulpit, is it. The John Nelson Darby version is usually a pain free cop-out, which comes either in form of anti-gravity ascension like Christ on the Mount of Olives, or a "puff" teleportation into heaven like the Left Behind movies. That's wild fantasy for itchy ears, not sound biblical teaching. There's no guarantee for us to be among those "who are still alive and left" in the bible. In fact, we as the end time generation are more likely to perish in the four horsemen judgements and end up crying for justice in the fifth seal:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Therefore, in conclusion, like many other theological concepts, the concept of "rapture" is biblical, the church doctrine developed from it has kind of missed the mark. In other words, the MESSAGE is true, the MESSAGING is problematic.

The 'rapture' doesn't mean much to me. Nor do I think anyone really has a firm handle on all of the interrogatives that could be apply to its term of origination and excessive abstraction from the Koine Greek, 'parousia.'

All in all, it's probably best to designate speculation about the nature of the rapture as being just that: speculation gussied up as "theology proper." Then, we can all stop debating about it.

RandyPNW · Aug 19, 2023

Douggg said:
Well, that is an imperfect analogy.

husband, father, citizen are common functional roles.

Differently.... the little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, and the beast-king are one-of- a kind functional roles.

No they aren't. Being a "prince" was a very common thing across the earth. Being a "man of sin" is common to the entire race, except that being particularly bad was less common. Nevertheless, it is common across the earth of dictators. A "beast-king" simply discribes a ruthless, inhuman king, which again is as common as any "man of sin." These are general functions assigned to a specific man who has a specific role to play in history.

RandyPNW · Aug 19, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
The 'rapture' doesn't mean much to me. Nor do I think anyone really has a firm handle on all of the interrogatives that could be apply to its term of origination and excessive abstraction from the Koine Greek, 'parousia.'

All in all, it's probably best to designate speculation about the nature of the rapture as being just that: speculation gussied up as "theology proper." Then, we can all stop debating about it.

You think the Hope of the Church, to experience resurrection, relief from this world, and transformation into immortality a trite thing--a matter of theological bickering? The word "Rapture" is not the issue--it is the idea of deliverance, like Lot being "snatched" out of Sodom before its destruction, like Noah being "snatched" out of the ungodly world to be preserved in the sea.

The Coming of Christ has a special impact on believers. Whether it is called deliverance, extraction, or rapture doesn't really matter as much as what it is described to be. It is a transformation into immortality. And that is not a matter of theological bickering.

Parousia is, I think, a language issue for some. When a person becomes "present" it's a particular way of saying someone has "come." To determine whether Parousia should mean "present" or "come" is not a big issue--it is how the word is commonly used and the context in which it is used that determines the specific meaning where it is being used.

When Christ "comes," he said he will send angels to gather up his followers. The effect will be the restoration of Israel. The same will happen for all nations that wish to serve God. They will be regathered from backsliding, and the faithful will be established in positions of authority. The faithful will be "snatched up," or "raptured." They will, in effect, come with Jesus. They are snatched up to be revealed with Jesus.

That being said I think you are astute in the sense that there is a built-in complexity in all this that makes a lot of talk about it seem foolish. We cannot fully comprehend things like "being snatched up into the air," or "immortality." But it is well worth theological consideration.

RandyPNW · Aug 19, 2023

Douggg said:
The Antichrist does not become the false prophet, the second beast of Revelation 13.

The Antichrist becomes the beast-king, the mortally wounded but healed head.

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The composite beast out of the sea in Revelation 13:1-2 is the kingdom of the beast-king.

The remaining text of Revelation, beginning in Revelation 13-3, focuses on the mortally wounded but healed head, that particular king (the seven heads are seven kings) as the beast.

Yes, I agree that the Beast is not just a Man, but also a Kingdom, an Empire. It has 10 States and 7 Leaders. 3 Leaders are removed. (This is my speculation.)

On the other hand, later in the Revelation we read that the 2 Beasts, though representative of corporate bodies, also represent 2 Leaders, the Beast and the False Prophet. They are treated as 2 Men.

I don't divide their functions into layered periods of time, as if one is a King and another is a Man of Sin and another is a Coming Ruler. On the contrary, I find the narrative to be focused on a single period of time, the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist.

All references to Antichrist are speaking of this particular period of time, which is 1st outlined in Dan 7. Breaking it all up into periods of time and various "functions" is very confusing to me, and not what I think would be written.

It would be too confusing to understand, and would have to be regularly interpreted by "experts." I don't think God would be so unclear, even if He used apocalyptic language to hide the anti-Roman flavor.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 19, 2023

RandyPNW said:
You think the Hope of the Church, to experience resurrection, relief from this world, and transformation into immortality a trite thing--a matter of theological bickering? The word "Rapture" is not the issue--it is the idea of deliverance, like Lot being "snatched" out of Sodom before its destruction, like Noah being "snatched" out of the ungodly world to be preserved in the sea.

The Coming of Christ has a special impact on believers. Whether it is called deliverance, extraction, or rapture doesn't really matter as much as what it is described to be. It is a transformation into immortality. And that is not a matter of theological bickering.

Parousia is, I think, a language issue for some. When a person becomes "present" it's a particular way of saying someone has "come." To determine whether Parousia should mean "present" or "come" is not a big issue--it is how the word is commonly used and the context in which it is used that determines the specific meaning where it is being used.

When Christ "comes," he said he will send angels to gather up his followers. The effect will be the restoration of Israel. The same will happen for all nations that wish to serve God. They will be regathered from backsliding, and the faithful will be established in positions of authority. The faithful will be "snatched up," or "raptured." They will, in effect, come with Jesus. They are snatched up to be revealed with Jesus.

That being said I think you are astute in the sense that there is a built-in complexity in all this that makes a lot of talk about it seem foolish. We cannot fully comprehend things like "being snatched up into the air," or "immortality." But it is well worth theological consideration.

I've already considered it, most astutely I assure you ...

Catch this, too: nowhere did I imply that eternal life in Christ is a trite thing. You've unfortunately misinterpreted me on the matter.

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2023

anetazo said:
I respect other people's beliefs and opinions.
Ezekiel chapter 13 . God hates the fly away doctrine. Its false doctrine.
The rapture theory is a escape hatch for those who lack faith. They believe they wont go through antichrist 5 month tribulation.
Many churches will lose attendance if they taught sound doctrine. So the hirelings water down Gods word.
Jeremiah chapter 25 . Jesus is coming 7th trump, to put stop to hunting grounds of the shepherds.
The false brethren go with satan into the pit during the millennium.
Isaiah chapter 24 . Jesus will return near future and clean house. Those who listened to false preachers will be in Sheol. Its holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. The millennium is time of teaching for spirituality dead. Revelation chapter 20. The rapture will get many people spot in sheol.

Sorry, my friend, but the fly away doctrine came straight from the Holy Spirit through Paul to us.
1 Thes. 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Read the words: "shall be caught up"...up where? Up into the air and into the clouds. HOW can we get up into the air? We FLY! Why are you so against what the bible clearly teaches?

Did you read about the sealing of the 144,000 of Israel in Rev. 7? Did you not then read that the next time John saw them, they were in heaven? HOW did they get there? I suggest they got into heaven (as shown in Rev. 14) by being caught up, the same way Enoch and Elijah and Jesus got there.

"The rapture theory is a escape"

Did you not read of God's escape plan?

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

How are we to "stand before the Son of man?" It is by way of the rapture. In his rapture passage Paul wrote, "so shall we ever be with the Lord," and ""get to live together with Him..." In short, we will stand before Jesus by way of the rapture. Luke called this God's "escape." I don't WANT to be here when God's wrath is poured out, and it is clear that God does not want His children here either. God has therefore made and escape plan. I wonder, are YOU praying always to be accounted worthy to escape—or are you planning on facing the Antichrist Beast?

"antichrist 5 month tribulation."
Where do you come up with this? Did you not read in Revelation 13 that the Antichrist Beast will have 42 months of authority? Much of the church world calls the 70th Week of Daniel "the Tribulation." Some imagine it is only the last half of the Week. The mention in Revelation of 5 months is ONLY for the 5th trumpet judgment of the stinging locusts. That is only a small part of "the tribulation" or 70th week.

" Jesus is coming 7th trump"

This is just one more myth! John is VERY clear that Jesus will come post 70th week or "after the tribulation of those days" as shown in Revelation 19. (The 7th trump is found in chapter 11). There IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. There is a "property closing" which will take place in Heaven's court room, where the kingdoms of this world are taken from the devil and given to Jesus Christ. That is all it is: property changes ownership or rulership. There is no coming. WHEN is the 7th trumpet? It will sound in heaven when the abomination Jesus mentioned will take place. This will be the division point of the future 70th week.

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2023

RandyPNW said:
The Coming of Christ has a special impact on believers. Whether it is called deliverance, extraction, or rapture doesn't really matter as much as what it is described to be. It is a transformation into immortality. And that is not a matter of theological bickering.

Parousia is, I think, a language issue for some. When a person becomes "present" it's a particular way of saying someone has "come." To determine whether Parousia should mean "present" or "come" is not a big issue--it is how the word is commonly used and the context in which it is used that determines the specific meaning where it is being used.

I think the answer is very simple: when someone "comes" their "presence" comes with them. Someone's presence does not come without them "coming." On the other hand, when someone leaves, their presence leaves with them. When Jesus comes to the air to call up His church, He presence will be there with Him. When He escorts the church back to heaven, His presence will go with Him.

On the other hand, when Jesus comes to Armageddon, He is coming to stay, and His presence will stay with Him because He is staying.

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
The 'rapture' doesn't mean much to me. Nor do I think anyone really has a firm handle on all of the interrogatives that could be apply to its term of origination and excessive abstraction from the Koine Greek, 'parousia.'

All in all, it's probably best to designate speculation about the nature of the rapture as being just that: speculation gussied up as "theology proper." Then, we can all stop debating about it.

The Greek word for rapture is harpazō: a snatching up.

I am amazed at your lack of attention to what is behind this word. This is the blessed hope of the church! One day Jesus will return to the clouds, and the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive and in Christ will be caught up WITH THEM into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. Have you never heard or sang the awesome hymn, "The Meeting In the Air?"

There should be no "speculation" about this for it is written very clearly. Some people debate over when it will happen. They shouldn't. Paul tells us it will happen before the start of the Day of the Lord and so before God's wrath. On Revelation's timeline God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, but the "tribulation" or 70th week will begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. Since 6 always comes before 7 in counting, and since the 6th esal will certainly be opened before the 7th seal, we can rest assured the rapture will be pre-trib.

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
In most pre-trib eschatology, the four horsemen are considered as the beginning of the end time tribulation, but that can't be correct based on this understanding of the complete church, because the church is not complete yet, it's only complete in the sixth seal, obviously that couldn't happen before the first seal, right? I believe those four horsemen were a visualization of all kinds of trials and tribulations throughout the church age, which alludes to Matt. 24:4-8. Those are "signs of the times," you may think it's the end, and you'll hear about all the doom and gloom, that's not "the end of the age," not yet. The definitive end, again, is the completion of the global church (Matt. 14),

The classical pre-trib doctrine has the rapture at Rev. 4:1, and the 70th week or "tribulation" beginning with the first seal. Both of these are wrong—very wrong. We must keep verses inside their context to get their true meaning. What is the context of the first seal? That would be chapters 4 & 5.

One day I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally, after a week or two, I got stuck on John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said,

“It shows timing.”

Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in the Spirit, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said,

“It also shows the movement of time.”

Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time!

I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Stephen SAW me there. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Over the years people have come up with really goofy answers to His questions. The real answers have to do with timing. You see, Jesus had a problem: He wanted to introduce John to the book sealed with seven seals, but He wanted to begin while the book was still in the hand of the Father. Since He, Jesus, took the book from the Father as soon as He ascended, somehow He had to show John that this was a vision of the past, not a vision around 95 AD.

How did Jesus accomplish this? He showed John a throne room with Himself (Jesus) missing. He showed John a search for one worthy that failed to find anyone. He showed the Holy Spirit still there in the throne room. So WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father? Simple: this vision was while Jesus was under the earth. Of course He was not at the right hand of the Father while He was under the earth.

Why was "no man found" in the search? If we read ahead, Jesus was found in a subsequent search. So why was He not immediately found in the first search? It was because at that time HE had not yet risen from the dead.

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room? Simply because at that time, Jesus had not ascended and sent Him down. Jesus then rose from the dead, was then found worthy, and the next thing Jesus showed to John in the vision is Jesus entering the throne room, having just ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Jesus went immediately to get the book and began, RIGHT THEN, to open the seals.

Therefore, keeping the first seals IN CONTEXT, seal 1 was opened about the same time Jesus told His church to go and make disciples of all nations—the great commission. Seal 1 then is the church taking the gospel to the world.

Since Satan is the god of this world, seals 2, 3, 4 are to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God has allowed the devil to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts—but God LIMITED them to only one fourth of the earth—probably Europe, the Middle East and Africa.

Since Satan was and is the god of this world, when the church conquered principalities and powers, MARTYRS were murdered so Jesus opened the 5th seal for the martyrs of the church age.

The church has been waiting there at the 5th seal for the FINAL martyr of the church age. Then the rapture will take place and the 6th seal will be opened to begin the Day of the Lord and the wrath of God.

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
And after that, the Great Multitude is the harvest the reaping of the earth (Rev. 14:14-16), that is the whole harvest, of which the 144,000 is just a small sample. During Jesus's ministry he made many parables and references of reaping and harvesting, this is the fulfillment. He will gather the wheat and burn the tares.

I disagree. Yes, the 144,000 are seen in chapter 14 in heaven. They are there as the firstfruits of the Jews and Hebrews. Emphasis is on "first." They will arrive in heaven first.

What then about the two harvests done with sickles? If we keep this in context, the days of great tribulation (GT) that Jesus spoke of is about to begin. God has sent an angel to warn all people in their own language the danger or taking the mark. After the warning, the mark will begin to be enforced. All people will be given the choice: take the mark or lose their heads. This is what the first sickle harvest will be: those who die from this point on by refusing the mark or refusing to bow.

Then the next harvest is a harvest of wrath. This is looking forward in time to the Battle of Armageddon and the sheep and goat judgment where the wicked will die.

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
Chapter 7 consists of two visions inserted inbetween the opening of the sixth and seventh seals.
Its purpose is to assure us of two mighty divine preservations before the visions of world judgment are seen.

Good answer! Have you ever watched a play where they close the curtain between acts? What happens behind the curtain? They are rearranging the setting to fit the next "act."

I believe that is what John is doing here in chapter 7: rearranging the setting. You see, God our Father will absolutely NOT ALLOW the 7th seal to be opened to begin the 70th week of Daniel, starting with the trumpets, until He sees two events completed:
First, God must see that the 144,000 are sealed for their protection.
Second, God must see the church safely in heaven before God's wrath is felt with the first trumpet.

When John saw the great crowd, he probably wondered who they were. The elder asked, "where did they come from?" We imagine the answer will be "How did they suddenly get here from planet earth?" That is not at all the answer given. The answer given is, each member of this huge crowd, too large to number, came from a life of tribulation on earth, away from God. But each member heard the gospel and responded, being born again or as John put it, washed their robes in the blood of Jesus. But this elder considered the entire crowd together, so added up each individual life of tribulation away from God and called it mega or great tribulation.

This "great tribulation" had nothing to do with the days of GT Jesus spoke about that will not begin in John's book until late in chapter 14.

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
The whole of human history through which all the nations pass is here called "the great tribulation."
The number is enumerable -
After these things I saw, . . . a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, . . . (v.9a) is of the totality of earth's history since Adam.

I disagree. This great crowd is limited ONLY to those who are "In Christ." So they go back to the early church or only approximately 2000 years. However, I suspect billions: maybe 50 or more generations of believes, plus all the children at the time of the rapture.

I believe the Old Testament saints will be caught up at the 7th bowl in chapter 16, which resurrection will cause the world's worst earthquake.

RandyPNW · Aug 19, 2023

iamlamad said:
I think the answer is very simple: when someone "comes" their "presence" comes with them. Someone's presence does not come without them "coming." On the other hand, when someone leaves, their presence leaves with them. When Jesus comes to the air to call up His church, He presence will be there with Him. When He escorts the church back to heaven, His presence will go with Him.

On the other hand, when Jesus comes to Armageddon, He is coming to stay, and His presence will stay with Him because He is staying.

You are confusing 2 different uses of the word "parousia." It can mean "presence" or it can mean "coming." It doesn't mean both at the same time. The "coming" form of "parousia" is used as a very technical application of "presence," to be present when formerly you had not been present.

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2023

oikonomia said:
The second inserted vision also strongly implies that the rapture of the believers should begin to transpire before or at the sixth seal.
Chapter 7 assures us prior to the seven trumpet blasts:
1.) God will preserve a remnant of Israelites from the twelve tribes in the 3.5 years.
2.) Generally God will preserve through all of human history's great tribulation a crowd from all nations to enjoy
an eternal feast of tabernacles.

You have hit the nail squarely on the head! GOOD JOB!
Yes, indeed, this great crowd too large to number is the just-raptured church, and they are in heaven just after the 6th seal start of God's wrath. However, John did not see them arrive! We can be sure they were caught up BEFORE the 6th seal start of God's wrath.

I like to say it this way: I know the rapture will be pre-trib, because 6 always comes before 7 in counting, and the 6th seal will certainly be opened before the 7th seal which will begin the 70th week of Daniel or the time of Jacob's trouble.

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2023

Douggg said:
The little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the beast - are all the same person.

I can agree with this statement.

RandyPNW · Aug 19, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
I've already considered it, most astutely I assure you ...

Catch this, too: nowhere did I imply that eternal life in Christ is a trite thing. You've unfortunately misinterpreted me on the matter.

I did *not* suggest you treated "Eternal Life" as a trite thing. I used things like Eternal Life and Transformation to Immortality as evidence that the "Rapture" is much more than an argument over the meaning of the word--more, it is about the issues it represents, which I'm clear that you agree with? Thanks for the clarification, though. And I do see how you could've taken things the way you did.

What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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