What does prayer do?

[2PhiloVoid]

But does God only act if someone asks him to?

Tom, I think we both know the real answer to that. But this thread is about I.A.'s 'hypothetical' situation, wherein we might wake up and, whether we realize it or not, "God is no longer answering anything we ask of Him in any kind of positive way ..." But I think that position is an onerous scenario and a pure hypothesis.

You've asked a great question, though, Tom.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Tom, I think we both know the real answer to that. But this thread is about I.A.'s 'hypothetical' situation, wherein we might wake up and, whether we realize it or not, "God is no longer answering anything we ask of Him in any kind of positive way ..." But I think that position is an onerous scenario and a pure hypothesis.

The entire thread is on a false basis, beginning with a special request we ignore reality and the fact God will not "stop answering prayers", which the OP admitted he had already been told by multiple Christians.

It amounts to "but what if the polar ice caps were the sahara and the sahara were the polar ice caps,?", and then I can prove all our knowledge about the world is false.

My point is merely that the onerous scenario you speak of absolutely does not exist.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The entire thread is on a false basis, beginning with a special request we ignore reality and the fact God will not "stop answering prayers", which the OP admitted he had already been told by multiple Christians.

It amounts to "but what if the polar ice caps were the sahara and the sahara were the polar ice caps,?", and then I can prove all our knowledge about the world is false.

My point is merely that the onerous scenario you speak of absolutely does not exist.

Yep!

 

[InterestedAtheist]

"She"
Just a small correction...

Of course. Sorry.

The affects would be the same as they are today, just in spades...Think of this enmass, millions and millions of people walking away from any semblance of faith and any association with it, all around the same period of time..

That certainly sounds interesting. But there's something I don't understand. How would they know that God had stopped answering prayers?

If God did stop answering prayers, first of all, the nonreligious wouldn't notice, because they aren't praying anyway. The followers of other religions wouldn't notice, since they pray to the wrong God, and the real (Christian) God doesn't answer their prayers anyway. And of the Christians, many of them wouldn't be having their prayers answered due to their not being "real" Christians.
And of the real Christians, even they might not notice. they might just assume God was answering "later" or "not now" to their prayers.

So what I'm getting at is this. If God did stop answering all prayers, how would people know this? Assuming there was no heavenly announcement, indifference would God's not answering prayers make that people would immediately notice?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

The entire thread is on a false basis, beginning with a special request we ignore reality and the fact God will not "stop answering prayers", which the OP admitted he had already been told by multiple Christians.

It amounts to "but what if the polar ice caps were the sahara and the sahara were the polar ice caps,?", and then I can prove all our knowledge about the world is false.

My point is merely that the onerous scenario you speak of absolutely does not exist.

If logic leads you to an uncomfortable conclusion, what should you do? Deny it, or face the truth?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Of course. Sorry.

That certainly sounds interesting. But there's something I don't understand. How would they know that God had stopped answering prayers?

If God did stop answering prayers, first of all, the nonreligious wouldn't notice, because they aren't praying anyway. The followers of other religions wouldn't notice, since they pray to the wrong God, and the real (Christian) God doesn't answer their prayers anyway. And of the Christians, many of them wouldn't be having their prayers answered due to their not being "real" Christians.
And of the real Christians, even they might not notice. they might just assume God was answering "later" or "not now" to their prayers.

So what I'm getting at is this. If God did stop answering all prayers, how would people know this? Assuming there was no heavenly announcement, indifference would God's not answering prayers make that people would immediately notice?

Your assuming God doesn't answer prayers, generally speaking, and that for most people this state wouldn't make any difference..

The fact is, you have no idea what prayer does, and who it does it for unless prayer itself is actually gone, and until it is, all your doing making wild speculations based on your own presupposition.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

The fact is, you have no idea what prayer does, and who it does it for unless prayer itself is actually gone, and until it is, all your doing making wildly speculations based on your own presupposition.

Okay then. So what do you think would happen if God stopped answering prayers? You did already give me one answer, I know, and very interesting it was. You said there would be a huge exodus and millions upon millions of people would abandon religion.

That's a very interesting point, but right now I am curious about something else instead. How would people know if God stopped answering prayers?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Okay then. So what do you think would happen if God stopped answering prayers? You did already give me one answer, I know, and very interesting it was. You said there would be a huge exodus and millions upon millions of people would abandon religion.

That's a very interesting point, but right now I am curious about something else instead. How would people know if God stopped answering prayers?

Because prayers wouldn't be answered anymore..

People know when God answers prayer - it's not a guess, it's not a maybe so..

Prayers would cease to be answered. Period.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

People know when God answers prayer - it's not a guess, it's not a maybe so..

You say people know when their prayers are answered. I assume that means you yourself always know?
How?

 

[Hazelelponi]

You say people know when their prayers are answered. I assume that means you yourself always know?
How?

Read the Bible:

"But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear."

God is quite tangible to believers, actually present. So much so when He stops interacting in our lives its described as above, as God hiding His face from His people.

For you God isn't a presence in your life, but for us, He very much is. If He stopped answering us, even if that answer is a no, it would be obvious.

Are there "fake" believers who may be slower on the uptake? Yes, but it doesn't mean given time it wouldn't become obvious even to the most dense.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Read the Bible:

"But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear."

God is quite tangible to believers, actually present. So much so when He stops interacting in our lives its described as above, as God hiding His face from His people.

For you God isn't a very real presence in your life, but for us, He is. If He stopped answering us, even if that answer is a no, it would be obvious.

Are there "fake" believers who may be slower on the uptake? Yes, but it doesn't mean given time it wouldn't become obvious even to the most dense.

Interesting.
And how about people of other religions? Muslims, say. If they pray for something, does God answer them? If He did, wouldn't they think, mistakenly, that the answer came.from Allah? Effectively, wouldn't that mean God is pretending to be Allah, and every other God, if He answers their prayers without informing them of their mistake?

 

[Tom 1]

Interesting.
And how about people of other religions? Muslims, say. If they pray for something, does God answer them? If He did, wouldn't they think, mistakenly, that the answer came.from Allah? Effectively, wouldn't that mean God is pretending to be Allah, and every other God, if He answers their prayers without informing them of their mistake?

Prayer in Islam is a bit of a different concept, something of a duty. There are lots of writings on it by Muslim scholars.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Interesting.
And how about people of other religions? Muslims, say. If they pray for something, does God answer them? If He did, wouldn't they think, mistakenly, that the answer came.from Allah? Effectively, wouldn't that mean God is pretending to be Allah, and every other God, if He answers their prayers without informing them of their mistake?

I believe God draws people to Himself. That drawing involves what it involves, and for each person it's different, but God's people - whether Muslim or Buddhist or or or - always come to the truth of Christ.

Was God drawing me when I was a Muslim - yes. And when I went to see the shiekh to ask on the matters I was told it was the shaytan trying to deceive me..

I couldn't accept that, because it wasn't evil.. but that gets into different issues altogether.

So at any rate, do you not know whether God has hid His face from you? Is it not obvious to you that you have no connection to this God?

What makes you think it's not just as obvious or wouldn't be just as obvious to others when God leaves them and stops answering prayer for them?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

This has been very interesting, and thank you for the replies. I must be going now, but will be back later.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

God is quite tangible to believers, actually present. So much so when He stops interacting in our lives its described as above, as God hiding His face from His people.

Have you ever seen God?
Have you ever heard God's voice?
Do you sense God's presence in some other way?

For you God isn't a presence in your life, but for us, He very much is. If He stopped answering us, even if that answer is a no, it would be obvious.

Why? What would be missing?

By the way, I'd be interested in hearing what you think of this, from earlier:
And how about people of other religions? Muslims, say. If they pray for something, does God answer them? If He did, wouldn't they think, mistakenly, that the answer came.from Allah? Effectively, wouldn't that mean God is pretending to be Allah, and every other God, if He answers their prayers without informing them of their mistake?

I believe God draws people to Himself. That drawing involves what it involves, and for each person it's different, but God's people - whether Muslim or Buddhist or or or - always come to the truth of Christ.

Always?
Two questions, then.
One, why doesn't God draw all people to Him?
Two, how do you account for the fact that the vast majority of people take on the religion predominant in the area that they are born in, and stay in that religion for the rest of their lives?

So at any rate, do you not know whether God has hid His face from you? Is it not obvious to you that you have no connection to this God?

it certainly is. What's not obvious is that you or anyone else has a connection with God. Look, don't take offence. But you know I think God doesn't exist. So how would you expect me to answer your question?

What makes you think it's not just as obvious or wouldn't be just as obvious to others when God leaves them and stops answering prayer for them?

Because the way Christians generally know that God has answered their prayers is that they get the thing they asked for. They don't get a message saying, "Sure, pal, I'll find your car keys for you." They just pray, get what they want and assume God sent it.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Tom, I think we both know the real answer to that. But this thread is about I.A.'s 'hypothetical' situation, wherein we might wake up and, whether we realize it or not, "God is no longer answering anything we ask of Him in any kind of positive way ..." But I think that position is an onerous scenario and a pure hypothesis.

You've asked a great question, though, Tom.

I think there's probably some other reason you don't want to answer the question in this thread. You shied away awfully quickly. Perhaps you're starting to see how prayer doesn't make sense?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Have you ever seen God?
Have you ever heard God's voice?
Do you sense God's presence in some other way?

This is similar to trying to explain physics to a kindergartener, it can't be done.

Why? What would be missing?

By the way, I'd be interested in hearing what you think of this, from earlier:
And how about people of other religions? Muslims, say. If they pray for something, does God answer them? If He did, wouldn't they think, mistakenly, that the answer came.from Allah? Effectively, wouldn't that mean God is pretending to be Allah, and every other God, if He answers their prayers without informing them of their mistake?

Muslims have a connection to the spiritual world, but not to God.

On the other side, Christians have a connection to God, but the spiritual world is distant and unbothersome.

When God draws a Muslim, He begins by making the errors of Islam far more clear.

It's not that he's answering prayers of Muslims in such a way that it seems like the god of Islam is doing it.. not at all.

Always?
Two questions, then.
One, why doesn't God draw all people to Him?
Two, how do you account for the fact that the vast majority of people take on the religion predominant in the area that they are born in, and stay in that religion for the rest of their lives?

I don't know why.. He does make His Truth clear to all men so that none are without excuse, but I dont know why he's not as insistent with some as with others.

it certainly is. What's not obvious is that you or anyone else has a connection with God. Look, don't take offence. But you know I think God doesn't exist. So how would you expect me to answer your question?

Because the way Christians generally know that God has answered their prayers is that they get the thing they asked for. They don't get a message saying, "Sure, pal, I'll find your car keys for you." They just pray, get what they want and assume God sent it.

Again, can't explain physics to a kindergartener...

Until you experience it yourself you don't have the ability to understand those who have..

It's something you know you don't know, therefore have no capacity to believe in a God of any type.

If God turned His face from me today, I'd notice it today. You've never had access to that relationship, so you think of it as a quid pro quo. It's not. There's a reason God Himself describes His relationship with Israel as a marriage type of relationship.

If I were you, I'd start somewhere else besides trying to understand the relationship.. maybe first you need to understand whether or not there's even a God.

 

[BigV]

This is similar to trying to explain physics to a kindergartener, it can't be done.

you spelled "alchemy" wrong.

 

[BigV]

Until you experience it yourself you don't have the ability to understand those who have..

You seem to know how Muslims experience God. But you were never a Muslim, so how do you have the ability to understand them?

I was a Christian, also Baptist. Nobody ever doubted my faith, until I started to become Agnostic Atheist.

I don't know why.. He does make His Truth clear to all men so that none are without excuse, but I dont know why he's not as insistent with some as with others.

"Men without excuse" is a New Testament teaching, and a very ironic one, because it's written by someone who required a personal revelation on a road to Damascus. How can Paul say all men are without excuse even as he himself was confused and following a 'false' religion until Jesus stopped him in his tracks?

 

[cvanwey]

These verses refer to prayers from believers.
This is different from prayers from non-believers, I think.
God never says that he will always refrain from answering a prayer from an unbeliever - at least I don't recall any such verse.
But James 1:7 is about prayers from doubters.

So when a true and earnest believer prays, their prayer will always be answered, unless the Lord sees that it was a test. Got it

This is very convincing evidence. How can I argue or dispute such assertions? I can't. And remember @thomas_t ...

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can just as easily be discarded without evidence." See below...

I suppose all members of the prayer team were non-believers, and James 1:7 would apply.
As a Christian personally I would always agree with your following quote and refrain from participating in any study like the the one you've cited.

Thomas

See above

This is why we can disregard the (STEP) test entirely