What does prayer do?

[InterestedAtheist]

Then there's nothing to discuss is there?
Go your way in peace!

I am not here because I'm a Christian and want to learn more about the religion.
Nor am I here because I would like to be a Christian and want to be convinced of it.

But it might help to think of me as being like a Christian - speaking to Muslims.
I am here to help you see the error of your ways.
That's why I'm here, in this particular forum.

MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose
"The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs."

You've done a good job defending your beliefs so far. It's been a most engaging conversation.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I am not here because I'm a Christian and want to learn more about the religion.
Nor am I here because I would like to be a Christian and want to be convinced of it.

But it might help to think of me as being like a Christian - speaking to Muslims.
I am here to help you see the error of your ways.
That's why I'm here, in this particular forum.

MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose
"The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs."

You've done a good job defending your beliefs so far. It's been a most engaging conversation.

Well, it's going to be a useless waste of your time if your here trying to help me see the "error" of my ways.. lol.

I have experienced God, point blank.. There's nothing anyone could do at this point to convince me other than what I believe.

This is why I say go in peace. You and I speak a different language. I speak based on what I know, and you speak based on what you know - and never the twain shall meet.

Unless of course, your experience changes.. Mine however, cannot.

 

[Tom 1]

I am not here because I'm a Christian and want to learn more about the religion.
Nor am I here because I would like to be a Christian and want to be convinced of it.

But it might help to think of me as being like a Christian - speaking to Muslims.
I am here to help you see the error of your ways.
That's why I'm here, in this particular forum.

MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose
"The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs."

You've done a good job defending your beliefs so far. It's been a most engaging conversation.

I hope you don't mind me saying so, but you appear to be diddling about a bit in fairly shallow waters. If you want to unmoor someone's faith you'd need to address the more fundamental, underlying principles about belief and why we all have it. Rather than just pointing out some other inconsistencies in other people's worldview you might have more persuasive power if you can demonstrate that you can fully and convincingly explain your own, in parts, the fundamental elements which you see as being definite and unshakeable. As a bonus that would make for an interesting discussion, too.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I hope you don't mind me saying so, but you appear to be diddling about a bit in fairly shallow waters. If you want to unmoor someone's faith you'd need to address the more fundamental, underlying principles about belief and why we all have it. Rather than just pointing out some other inconsistencies in other people's worldview you might have more persuasive power if you can demonstrate that you can fully and convincingly explain your own, in parts, the fundamental elements which you see as being definite and unshakeable. As a bonus that would make for an interesting discussion, too.

It's a long-term strategy. Small questions can be just as interesting to explore as big ones.
Also, I have to disagree with you. The realisation that God doesn't answer prayers would seem to be a fairly major blow to Christianity.
Mainly, though, I think it's an interesting question to discuss.

 

[Hazelelponi]

It's a long-term strategy. Small questions can be just as interesting to explore as big ones.
Also, I have to disagree with you. The realisation that God doesn't answer prayers would seem to be a fairly major blow to Christianity.
Mainly, though, I think it's an interesting question to discuss.

That only works for those who falsely think God is our own personal Santa Clause..

And those people don't know God in the first place, so you wouldn't have far to go with them anyway - not much of a victory but in your own mind.

The greater question is this. Why do you wish to take God's people out of the realm of faith (as this would be the real prize yes?)? Why does this matter to you whether or not I have a relationship with the God of the heavens and the universe?

Why is go in peace something of anathema to you, where concerns God's people? Why can't you go happily in your own way, and allow others to do the same?

I can happily say peace to you, and allow you to believe your own way and live your own ideals; so why does that make your skin crawl to allow me to do the same?

 

[Tom 1]

It's a long-term strategy. Small questions can be just as interesting to explore as big ones.
Also, I have to disagree with you. The realisation that God doesn't answer prayers would seem to be a fairly major blow to Christianity.
Mainly, though, I think it's an interesting question to discuss.

People don’t believe things based on ‘real realities’, in the sense of fully understanding what those are in the widest possible sense, but on coherent or otherwise appealing ways of thinking, backed up by personal experience, what our senses tell us and so on. That’s true for everyone - which way of thinking seems more ‘believable’ is more about internal coherence, ways of thinking might have elements of ‘the real’ in them, but that doesn’t make them real in some overarching, fully objective sense. Of course if someone’s belief is based on a superficial or faulty understanding of the thing they profess belief in then it might be fairly easy to dismantle piecemeal, but for a lot of people the foundation is much broader than that, and that being the case you won’t get very far by just looking at the most salient points, I think.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Well, it's going to be a useless waste of your time if your here trying to help me see the "error" of my ways.. lol.

I have experienced God, point blank.. There's nothing anyone could do at this point to convince me other than what I believe.

This is why I say go in peace. You and I speak a different language. I speak based on what I know, and you speak based on what you know - and never the twain shall meet.

Unless of course, your experience changes.. Mine however, cannot.

Well, for one thing, I should also consider the people who are reading this thread, not just the people I am speaking to.

And second: you might be surprised.
I strongly recommend Dan Barker's excellent book, Godless. Here's an excerpt:
"I used to think that everything that happened to me had a spiritual significance. If I was looking for a parking space and a car pulled out of a space right near where I wanted to be, then I would say, “Thank you, Jesus, for giving me a place to park.” If I had to park six blocks away, I would say, “Thank you, Jesus, for teaching me patience.” The bible says “All things work together for good to them that love God.” I viewed all income as an undeserved gift from heaven. I tried to interpret every news event as fitting into God’s plan for the world. If something bad happened then I would say, “There is the price for evil.” If something good happened then I would say, “There is a sign of God’s blessing.” Any news from the Middle East was a sign that God was focusing attention on the site of the arena for the last days, which was just around the corner. Nothing in my life was accidental. Every occurrence was a lesson to be learned, or a part of divine purpose, or a temptation from the Devil. Behind the visible world was a very real spiritual world inhabited by angels, demons, spirits and saints, all fighting to win my soul and demolish the other side. As you might imagine, this made my life very interesting.
...
Since I have become an atheist I often hear from believers who tell me that I could not possibly have been a true Christian or I would never have left Christianity. If I had truly known Jesus personally, like they do, then I would never have denied him. I must have been merely pretending to convince myself that God was real, they insist. Well, yes, I know exactly what they are saying. I used to preach that sermon. I preached it, believed it, knew it and felt it. If I did not have an authentic relationship with God, then why not? Why would God reveal himself to them, and not to me? I read the same bible, prayed with an open, humble spirit, and received inner confirmation of a “presence” witnessing to the truth of what I believed. If what I felt was phony, why would a good God allow me to be so deceived? (And how does anyone else know they are not being deceived as well?)"

You say you are sure that God exists, and I believe that you are sure.

But others have said it before as well, and then decided later that they were mistaken.

You never know.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Well, for one thing, I should also consider the people who are reading this thread, not just the people I am speaking to.

And second: you might be surprised.
I strongly recommend Dan Barker's excellent book, Godless. Here's an excerpt:
"I used to think that everything that happened to me had a spiritual significance. If I was looking for a parking space and a car pulled out of a space right near where I wanted to be, then I would say, “Thank you, Jesus, for giving me a place to park.” If I had to park six blocks away, I would say, “Thank you, Jesus, for teaching me patience.” The bible says “All things work together for good to them that love God.” I viewed all income as an undeserved gift from heaven. I tried to interpret every news event as fitting into God’s plan for the world. If something bad happened then I would say, “There is the price for evil.” If something good happened then I would say, “There is a sign of God’s blessing.” Any news from the Middle East was a sign that God was focusing attention on the site of the arena for the last days, which was just around the corner. Nothing in my life was accidental. Every occurrence was a lesson to be learned, or a part of divine purpose, or a temptation from the Devil. Behind the visible world was a very real spiritual world inhabited by angels, demons, spirits and saints, all fighting to win my soul and demolish the other side. As you might imagine, this made my life very interesting.
...
Since I have become an atheist I often hear from believers who tell me that I could not possibly have been a true Christian or I would never have left Christianity. If I had truly known Jesus personally, like they do, then I would never have denied him. I must have been merely pretending to convince myself that God was real, they insist. Well, yes, I know exactly what they are saying. I used to preach that sermon. I preached it, believed it, knew it and felt it. If I did not have an authentic relationship with God, then why not? Why would God reveal himself to them, and not to me? I read the same bible, prayed with an open, humble spirit, and received inner confirmation of a “presence” witnessing to the truth of what I believed. If what I felt was phony, why would a good God allow me to be so deceived? (And how does anyone else know they are not being deceived as well?)"

You say you are sure that God exists, and I believe that you are sure.

But others have said it before as well, and then decided later that they were mistaken.

You never know.

But why is it important to you for anyone to leave the faith?

Why have you taken this mission upon yourself? What purpose do you believe it serves?

Your answer is a non-answer..

 

[InterestedAtheist]

That only works for those who falsely think God is our own personal Santa Clause..

And those people don't know God in the first place, so you wouldn't have far to go with them anyway - not much of a victory but in your own mind.

The greater question is this. Why do you wish to take God's people out of the realm of faith (as this would be the real prize yes?)? Why does this matter to you whether or not I have a relationship with the God of the heavens and the universe?

Why is go in peace something of anathema to you, where concerns God's people? Why can't you go happily in your own way, and allow others to do the same?

I can happily say peace to you, and allow you to believe your own way and live your own ideals; so why does that make your skin crawl to allow me to do the same?

Make my skin crawl? You're overstating the case.
I simply believe that it is best to know the truth about things.
Also, it's not like I'm knocking on your door trying to poison your peace of mind. I was invited here. Challenging Christian beliefs is the point of this forum. By definition, any Christian I meet here must be ready to face the truth.

 

[thomas_t]

it is quite clear to me that, quite simply, there is no such thing as God.

That's a direct claim, then back it up please. Using evidence. Otherwise I'd suggest you dismiss this claim.
Is the evidence that you looked into the matter without finding anything?
Let me assure you: God knows your heart before you even started to look into the matter. Once he knows that the above post is what you would write in 2020, he would be unwise to reveal himself to you in 2006. That's at least my opinion.
It's a kind of putting God to the test.. the same oxymoron you discussed in your post here

Interesting! Perhaps God realised this was a test and decided He wasn't going to be pinned down.

that's the answer maybe here also.

Thomas

 

[InterestedAtheist]

But why is it important to you for anyone to leave the faith?

Why have you taken this mission upon yourself? What purpose do you believe it serves?

Fair question. I think that Christianity as a belief system does great damage to the world. It would be going off-topic to explore this in greater detail, so just accept that this is what I believe for the time being. I also believe it is best for people to know the truth about the world, to understand and accept reality.

Don't you believe that? Of course, you think that the reality is that God exists.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

That's a direct claim, then back it up please. Using evidence. Otherwise I'd suggest you dismiss this claim.

Fair enough, thomas.
I misspoke. I retract the statement. I do not have positive proof that no such entity as God does not or cannot exist.
Instead, I shall simply say that I see no reason to believe that God does exist, and therefore do not - indeed, cannot - so believe.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Fair question. I think that Christianity as a belief system does great damage to the world. It would be going off-topic to explore this in greater detail, so just accept that this is what I believe for the time being. I also believe it is best for people to know the truth about the world, to understand and accept reality.

Don't you believe that? Of course, you think that the reality is that God exists.

I believe in science as much as I believe in God..

I also believe you can fix ignorance but you'll never fix stupid - and stupid is found in absence of any religion or in its presence..

Religion isn't the author of stupidity.. man is.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I believe in science as much as I believe in God..

Do you really? Because if God does intervene in the world, that means that while He is not a physical being Himself, He has an affect on the physical plane, which is something that science can study. You do not seem to be very eager to see any such studies done, which is strange; because if God is real, it would be remarkable indeed to observe the effects of His presence. Not by unreliable, individual, anecdotal data, but by reliable, observable trends.

Religion isn't the author of stupidity.. man is.

Agreed. But what if religion springs from humanity, not God?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

First of all, apologies for keeping you waiting. I've been thinking about this post all day.

I'm going to come at this from a different angle altogether since we are speaking different languages here - I hope you don't mind @InterestedAtheist but so long as we are coming at prayer differently you'll never understand what I'm saying.

The thing is, I don't think we are speaking different languages. I am quite happy to accept everything you say about prayer, but I am disagreeing with you about the consequences of this. And if you can show me my reasoning is flawed, I am quite happy to change my mind. I am also debating your interpretations of certain parts of the Bible, and again am meeting you in your own language to debate them.

Jesus Himself taught us to pray, and even outlined what prayer should be and is - so let's examine it.

Hang on a moment. Yes, the disciples asked Jesus "how shall we pray?" and Jesus said, "Like this," and taught them Our Father. But it is quite, quite clear that while this remains an important part of the Christian religion and is often prayed by Christians, it is not the only prayer they say. The Bible has many examples of Christians praying in many different ways, and Christians are encouraged to pray to God to ask for things.

Therefore, while we ask for material things, we pray more often for our spiritual state, and our spiritual needs, and that spiritual relationship with Christ...

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. While it may well be true that Christians do not habitually pray to God to ask for things, I think it is pretty clear that when they are in trouble, or when loved ones are in trouble, they do pray to God and ask Him for help. Concrete, material help. Healing. Bank balances. Finding a job. Safety from attack.

I am going to refer you again to the section of Christian Forums:
Prayer Wall
I'm afraid you haven't yet acknowledged it, although I have mentioned it a number of times. You can see there, people are praying all the time, and often praying for specific things. As I write this, the last post was one minute ago. Looking at it, you can see Christians post there all the time. There is no reason to think that this is atypical. When Christians are in trouble, they pray for help, and often their prayers are asking God for direct intervention of some kind and assistance of a material kind.

Therefore it's very difficult to converse with someone who appears unable to accept what Jesus Himself taught about prayer - when discussing prayer itself.

I'll make the point again: I am happy to accept everything the Christian religion says as being true, for the sake of this conversation. But I am disputing your interpretation of it, and I will be happy to change my ideas if you can show me why I should.

I pray in the model of the Lord's prayer for the spiritual every day, multiple times a day, and ask for others to pray for the physical and temporal on average of about 2 maybe 3 times a year..

That is not at all inconsistent. People pray when they are in trouble. Some people are in trouble more than others at different times.
I am certain that all people, when they or their loved ones in difficulties, wish that things would change for the better. For religious people, these wishes take the form of prayers. Don't they? If you disagree, take another look at this.

If Christians in trouble are praying for help, and if some of their prayers are answered, this should be an observable fact, measurable by science. But it isn't, is it?

From what I've seen, Christians are not better off in any way you can see and measure, quite frankly I do think non-believers get more of the measurable "stuff" (although I've certainly never sat around and tried to measure that sort of thing), but it's difficult to measure and quantify what we actually have, because we have real and immediate access to the Throne of God, and His Holy Spirit upon us - which is a thing beyond your understanding.

There are millions of people facing financial difficulties, medical problems and other types of adversity. All of them are wishing things could get better. But Christians claim to be able to communicate with an all-powerful benevolent entity known as God. And again, if you look at the things they pray for, you can see that they hope, if not expect, that God will indeed help them.

Therefore, Christians have an advantage, and the effects of prayer are a phenomenon that should be observable.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

People don’t believe things based on ‘real realities’, in the sense of fully understanding what those are in the widest possible sense, but on coherent or otherwise appealing ways of thinking, backed up by personal experience, what our senses tell us and so on. That’s true for everyone - which way of thinking seems more ‘believable’ is more about internal coherence, ways of thinking might have elements of ‘the real’ in them, but that doesn’t make them real in some overarching, fully objective sense. Of course if someone’s belief is based on a superficial or faulty understanding of the thing they profess belief in then it might be fairly easy to dismantle piecemeal, but for a lot of people the foundation is much broader than that, and that being the case you won’t get very far by just looking at the most salient points, I think.

Sorry. I didn't really understand that. Please could you clarify?

 

[Tom 1]

Sorry. I didn't really understand that. Please could you clarify?

Don't understand what you believe? Or have a faulty understanding of the core of what you believe? = easy to dismantle with a few issues.

Have a more deep-rooted belief in a coherent system you have a thorough understanding of = much more immune to some fiddling about with the details.

As for the other stuff it's the basic gap between 'things in our heads' and 'everything'.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Don't understand what you believe? Or have a faulty understanding of the core of what you believe? = easy to dismantle with a few issues.

Have a more deep-rooted belief in a coherent system you have a thorough understanding of = much more immune to some fiddling about with the details.

As for the other stuff it's the basic gap between 'things in our heads' and 'everything'.

Thank you.
I disagree with you, however, that if it is hard to change a person's mind, they necessarily have a "deep-rooted belief in a thoroughly-understood and coherent system". There may be other factors at work, such as emotional connection, social issues, denial, groupthink, and a misunderstanding of logic and logical fallacies.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

 

[Tom 1]

Thank you.
I disagree with you, however, that if it is hard to change a person's mind, they necessarily have a "deep-rooted belief in a thoroughly-understood and coherent system". There may be other factors at work, such as emotional connection, social issues, denial, groupthink, and a misunderstanding of logic and logical fallacies.

True, but those things are universal. They may seem more obvious in relation to some beliefs or kinds of belief, but their application is wider than that, once you get through the layers to the most basic premises.