What does prayer do?

[InterestedAtheist]

You seem to know how Muslims experience God. But you were never a Muslim, so how do you have the ability to understand them?

In point of fact, I believe @Hazelelponi was a Muslim before she converted to Christianity.
But in another sense, you could be right. Since she is a Christian, she must believe that Allah does not exist. A Muslim would say that she never really experienced Allah's presence.
It's basically one religious person's word against another. They both say they feel their God's presence. As the saying goes, they can't both be right; but they could both be wrong.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Let me approach the question from a different angle then.

If God did stop answering prayers, then people wouldn't be getting the things they ask for. All of these Christians, on this forum and many others like it, in millions of churches and homes around the world...they are asking God to help loved ones through sickness, or to find lost things, or to help with their bank balances, or for the sake of refugees.
And suddenly, none of these prayers are being answered. What would this mean? Why, that the Christians will suddenly experience a wave of bad luck; the things they want are no longer coming to them.

But what that means, conversely, is that if God is answering prayers - here, now, today - that Christians should be luckier than other people. After all, they're the ones who have a relationship with an omnipotent and benevolent entity. As we've seen, they are asking Him for help all the time, in the expectation that He may, and sometimes does, provide it. And if God does bless people, Christians or not, as @Hazelelponi says, still Christians are actively petitioning Him, so they should be observably luckier.

The question is: are they?

It's not an easy question to answer. There are complicating factors. But, in theory, it is capable of answering.

As one pastor at a hospital said:

"I threw myself into it. I prayed holding hands and cradling heads. I prayed with children and old men. I prayed with a man who lost his tongue to cancer.
...
I started noticing something. When the doctors said someone was going to die, they did. When they said 10 percent chance of survival, about 9 out of 10 died. The odds ran pretty much as predicted by the doctors. I mean, is this praying doing ANYTHING?"

 

[Hazelelponi]

You seem to know how Muslims experience God. But you were never a Muslim, so how do you have the ability to understand them?

I was a Christian, also Baptist. Nobody ever doubted my faith, until I started to become Agnostic Atheist.

What do you think my telling people I'm a former Muslim is all about then, if I was never a Muslim?

I was a practicing Muslim when I came to Christ so I find myself able to speak on the topic.

Not knowing with religion is true

^^ that's an old post I made - hopefully that helps you next time you decide you know me.

 

[Hazelelponi]

In point of fact, I believe @Hazelelponi was a Muslim before she converted to Christianity.
But in another sense, you could be right. Since she is a Christian, she must believe that Allah does not exist. A Muslim would say that she never really experienced Allah's presence.
It's basically one religious person's word against another. They both say they feel their God's presence. As the saying goes, they can't both be right; but they could both be wrong.

I so actually believe "Allah" (as Muslims understand him) does in fact exist - he's just not God, as I have found

 

[Hazelelponi]

Let me approach the question from a different angle then.

If God did stop answering prayers, then people wouldn't be getting the things they ask for. All of these Christians, on this forum and many others like it, in millions of churches and homes around the world...they are asking God to help loved ones through sickness, or to find lost things, or to help with their bank balances, or for the sake of refugees.
And suddenly, none of these prayers are being answered. What would this mean? Why, that the Christians will suddenly experience a wave of bad luck; the things they want are no longer coming to them.

But what that means, conversely, is that if God is answering prayers - here, now, today - that Christians should be luckier than other people. After all, they're the ones who have a relationship with an omnipotent and benevolent entity. As we've seen, they are asking Him for help all the time, in the expectation that He may, and sometimes does, provide it. And if God does bless people, Christians or not, as @Hazelelponi says, still Christians are actively petitioning Him, so they should be observably luckier.

The question is: are they?

It's not an easy question to answer. There are complicating factors. But, in theory, it is capable of answering.

As one pastor at a hospital said:

"I threw myself into it. I prayed holding hands and cradling heads. I prayed with children and old men. I prayed with a man who lost his tongue to cancer.
...
I started noticing something. When the doctors said someone was going to die, they did. When they said 10 percent chance of survival, about 9 out of 10 died. The odds ran pretty much as predicted by the doctors. I mean, is this praying doing ANYTHING?"

Every trial Christians go through is about bringing the Christian into a relationship with God or making the relationship deeper and/or stronger.

Since God doesn't do the same with those outside of faith, (revelation 3:19) it would stand to reason that Christians wouldn't actually have as good a "luck" as non Christians in their lives, as the world would judge luck.

This is why coming from a position that prayer is asking God for things and God in turn granting those requests, is itself an error and misunderstanding prayer itself.

Prayer itself has the main purpose of bringing our wills into conformity with His, whether that's through blessings or tribulations, it's all about the relationship..

 

[BigV]

What do you think my telling people I'm a former Muslim is all about then, if I was never a Muslim?

I was a practicing Muslim when I came to Christ so I find myself able to speak on the topic.

Not knowing with religion is true

^^ that's an old post I made - hopefully that helps you next time you decide you know me.

Ah... then you should not speak for non-believers then, and I was a Christian same as what you are now. Hopefully that helps you next time you decide you know me.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Ah... then you should not speak for non-believers then, and I was a Christian same as what you are now. Hopefully that helps you next time you decide you know me.

When was I speaking "for" non-believers? I was speaking to a non-believer..

 

[BigV]

When was I speaking "for" non-believers? I was speaking to a non-believer..

You are giving me the impression that you know what a true Christianity is and anyone who critiques it just doesn't understand it.

Well, I understood Christianity just as well as you are understanding it now. And I assure you, there are no answered prayers. You can conduct a simple experiment.

Ask your God to do anything physically impossible and you will find it will never be done! Or, to use your lingo, the answer will always be "NO". Which is the same thing you would experience with random events.

This is not physics, and should be understandable for anyone.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Prayer itself has the main purpose of bringing our wills into conformity with His, whether that's through blessings or tribulations, it's all about the relationship..

This is why coming from a position that prayer is asking God for things and God in turn granting those requests, is itself an error and misunderstanding prayer itself.

Not at all. The fact is that people do pray to God asking for things - and they should; the Bible enjoins and encourages them to. The fact that Christians ask God to give them things is indisputable, as we can see here:
Prayer Wall
You may say the the meaning and intention of prayer is closer communion with God. But in fact the practice of prayer involves a great deal of directly asking Him for things. And so it should, by common sense (why wouldn't you ask an all-powerful, benevolent entity intimately interested in your life with whom you have a relationship to help you?) and Scripture (the Bible is full of passages which tell us to ask God for things in prayer, and show us characters successfully doing so).

Every trial Christians go through is about bringing the Christian into a relationship with God or making the relationship deeper and/or stronger.

Since God doesn't do the same with those outside of faith, (revelation 3:19) it would stand to reason that Christians wouldn't actually have as good a "luck" as non Christians in their lives, as the world would judge luck.

Hmmm. If you ask me, this is an extremely complex and nuanced issue, too much so to be settled with one extremely short quote. Let's consider this a bit more.

Let's accept, for now, that God does indeed use adversity to bring Christians closer to Him. Okay, that's quite reasonable - difficulties do indeed produce many opportunities for improvements of all kind.
But how exactly does this operate? The quote from Revelation, and your position on it, would mean that God simply uses the adversities that Christians encounter in life - that we all encounter - to draw them closer to Him. Fair enough. But in that case, the playing field has been levelled. Christians and non-Christians enjoy equal levels of good and bad luck. But Christians have an advantage. They have God to pray to. God, who has promised to listen to their prayers and grant them, and who they sincerely believe will - at least sometimes - do so.

Therefore, logically, if prayer stopped working, we should see all Christians' lives become instantly unluckier; and, in the real world in which we live in now, it should be possible to prove that Christians are, on average, luckier than non-Christians.

But they aren't, are they? Which kind of makes you wonder - is prayer actually real, and does it do anything? Take a look at what they're praying for here. God, please help this refugee family. God, please help me sort out my family difficulties. God, please help my uncle recover from knee surgery. God, please heal my husband's bowel cancer. Christians are praying with the earnest hope that their prayers will be granted. Some of these prayers may be granted, some not - but it gives Christians a definite edge over non-Christians. If Christianity is true.

I've explained above what we'd see if prayer stopped working - but the thing is, that's what we see right now. Christians being no more lucky than non-Christians. And that's interesting.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Ask your God to do anything physically impossible and you will find it will never be done! Or, to use your lingo, the answer will always be "NO". Which is the same thing you would experience with random events.

Quite true. God does all sorts of amazing and impossible things. But the thing is, they only ever happen in stories about Him.

God never, ever does anything more than a character in a story. Considering that Christians think that God is more than a character in a story, it's inexplicable why He never acts like a real being.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Not at all. The fact is that people do pray to God asking for things - and they should; the Bible enjoins and encourages them to. The fact that Christians ask God to give them things is indisputable, as we can see here:
Prayer Wall
You may say the the meaning and intention of prayer is closer communion with God. But in fact the practice of prayer involves a great deal of directly asking Him for things. And so it should, by common sense (why wouldn't you ask an all-powerful, benevolent entity intimately interested in your life with whom you have a relationship to help you?) and Scripture (the Bible is full of passages which tell us to ask God for things in prayer, and show us characters successfully doing so).


Hmmm. If you ask me, this is an extremely complex and nuanced issue, too much so to be settled with one extremely short quote. Let's consider this a bit more.

Let's accept, for now, that God does indeed use adversity to bring Christians closer to Him. Okay, that's quite reasonable - difficulties do indeed produce many opportunities for improvements of all kind.
But how exactly does this operate? The quote from Revelation, and your position on it, would mean that God simply uses the adversities that Christians encounter in life - that we all encounter - to draw them closer to Him. Fair enough. But in that case, the playing field has been levelled. Christians and non-Christians enjoy equal levels of good and bad luck. But Christians have an advantage. They have God to pray to. God, who has promised to listen to their prayers and grant them, and who they sincerely believe will - at least sometimes - do so.

Therefore, logically, if prayer stopped working, we should see all Christians' lives become instantly unluckier; and, in the real world in which we live in now, it should be possible to prove that Christians are, on average, luckier than non-Christians.

But they aren't, are they? Which kind of makes you wonder - is prayer actually real, and does it do anything?

Because, as I've explained above, what we'd see if prayer stopped working - that's what we see right now. Christians being no more lucky than non-Christians.

It's always going to be a level playing field between Christians and non-Christians. As Jesus said:

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.

God showers both blessing and adversity on all people, the only thing I see Christian's getting more of is trials and adversity because tribulations works patience:

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Romans 5:3

We can also look at 2 Corinthians 4:17; Psalm 34:19; Romans 8:18; 1 Peter 4:1; 1 Peter 3:14; Matthew 10:8 and many many more to show that suffering and tribulations are part and parcel of the Christian life.

The Christians reward is always in the next life - not necessarily here on earth. Matthew 16:24-26; Matthew 19:21

Whereas for the non-believer any reward (because God is not unjust) is actually here on earth, so I fully expect the largest rewards we can see and evaluate in this life will be more readily seen in a non-believer or an apostate.

While the Bible says anyone who leaves mother, father, homes etc. will receive 100 times more homes and family both in present life and in the life to come is true, it's true in God's standard... the problem is we don't always see in God's standard..

I now have a beautiful family, though I lost my own with the exception of my son, and a home and a protective loving environment now - but not all who do the same will have this temporal safety I now enjoy.

God's people must always look to the spiritual, and the rewards we have in Him are far and away more blessed than any temporal, material thing.

I have suffering more in the flesh than most, I am disabled and live daily in extreme pain, but in Christ Isaiah 40:31 is exceedingly true for me, and on a daily basis

"but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint."

People think materially, but God doesn't.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

God showers both blessing and adversity on all people, the only thing I see Christian's getting more of is trials and adversity because tribulations works patience:

That's a direct claim. Do you have evidence that Christians get more trials and adversity? When you say "you see it", what do you mean?

And by the way, I went to some trouble to look up notes on this forum's Prayer Wall, but you don't seem to have addressed what I said. Christians all around the world are asking God for things. They are actually asking God to give them things.

Are you saying that God never does? That their prayers for health, wealth and happiness are never answered?

Please try to answer this directly. I would very much like to know.

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Romans 5:3

But that's rather ambiguous, isn't it? It doesn't necessarily mean that Christians suffer greater amounts of tribulations than nonbelievers. It could just mean that they appreciate their suffering more and are able to make better use of it for spiritual development.

Whereas for the non-believer any reward (because God is not unjust) is actually here on earth, so I fully expect the largest rewards we can see and evaluate in this life will be more readily seen in a non-believer or an apostate.

I see.
And do you see this? Is this an observable fact of society?

 

[Hazelelponi]

That's a direct claim. Do you have evidence that Christians get more trials and adversity? When you say "you see it", what do you mean?

Scripture... (hence all the quotes from the Book)

And by the way, I went to some trouble to look up notes on this forum's Prayer Wall, but you don't seem to have addressed what I said. Christians all around the world are asking God for things. They are actually asking God to give them things.

Yes. People do periodically.

Are you saying that God never does? That their prayers for health, wealth and happiness are never answered?

He does at times answer positively, and at times negatively. (No is an answer too)

But that's rather ambiguous, isn't it? It doesn't necessarily mean that Christians suffer greater amounts of tribulations than nonbelievers. It could just mean that they appreciate their suffering more and are able to make better use of it for spiritual development.

Perhaps it's both, but your correct, looking for what God wants to teach us inside tribulations has a tendency to develop a person spiritually.

I see.
And do you see this? Is this an observable fact of society?

In some societies it is, in others it's not. But in some societies whether someone is Christian is more obvious than it is in others as well, so there is that..

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Scripture... (hence all the quotes from the Book)

No, no. You said you see Christians getting more trials and adversities. That is a claim about today's world - and, presumably, Christians throughout history. I would like to see some evidence that Christians experience more life problems than non-Christians. You are making a testable claim about the world, which I think is a very interesting thing.

He does at times answer positively, and at times negatively. (No is an answer too)

Good. Well, if God answers some prayers with yes, but never answers the prayers of non-Christians (why would He?) then Christians have an edge over non-Christians.
So, the consequence of what you are saying is that we should see Christians being luckier than non-Christians. How this might interact with adversity you say they experience is an interesting question.

Perhaps it's both, but your correct, looking for what God wants to teach us inside tribulations has a tendency to develop a person spiritually.

Thanks.

In some societies it is, in others it's not. But in some societies whether someone is Christian is more obvious than it is in others as well, so there is that..

It is certainly a complicated question. And I'm not at all saying there are simple answers. But I am saying that Christian beliefs about prayer works should have consequences. While the complicating factors of life make analysis difficult, on a broad scale, we should be noticing trends. Christians should get cancer, heart attacks and other diseases less than unbelievers. They should get better from them at a better rate than nonbelievers. The trials and tribulations that affect us all, Christians should have a higher rate of recovery and good luck involved in them than unbelievers, because they have the advantage of prayer.

Now, I'd assume that you'd agree with that, except I dare say you can see where I'm going, and I have a feeling you wouldn't agree with it.
Because I do not think that we would find such trends, and that would means that God does not sometimes answer prayers with a yes, as you say He does. Rather, going by the observable trends in society, it appears that He never answers prayers at all.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm going to come at this from a different angle altogether since we are speaking different languages here - I hope you don't mind @InterestedAtheist but so long as we are coming at prayer differently you'll never understand what I'm saying.

Jesus Himself taught us to pray, and even outlined what prayer should be and is - so let's examine it.

The Lord's Prayer (As Jesus is our Lord and is whom taught us prayer) goes like this:

"Our Father who art in Heaven"

^^ prayer begins with proper address as to whom it is we speak

Hallowed be Thy Name

^^ then praise - very important as it also serves to remind us of whom it is we speak, and in comparison, our own unworthiness as we approach the Throne.

Thy Kingdom come

^^ this is interesting here, as the Kingdom is now here with the coming of Christ, as clearly shown in both Luke 17:20–21 and Matthew 5:28. However, there is a mystery at work, because while the Kingdom is here, its also not yet present. For example, in Luke 19:11 Jesus tells a parable to make the point that the kingdom is not yet here.

So the mystery we see at work is that fulfillment of the kingdom is here; but the final consummation of the kingdom is not. Many kingdom blessings can be experienced by Gods people today; while many are reserved for the consummation and the coming of Jesus in power and glory.

So when we pray Thy Kingdom come, we are praying both for the final consummation of the Kingdom, and for God to bring us ever further into the Kingdom which is present that we can experience here and now.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven

If you've read the Bible, when we pray for God's will to be done, we are praying not for God to do His will, but for that will to be done in us, and through us. Not just that He does His will (He is God after all) but that He brings us into conformity with His perfect will.

This is seen easily in Jesus' own prayer:

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." Luke 22:42

so when we pray or ask for prayer during our trials, we are praying for the cup to be taken from us, HOWEVER, not our will, but His be done in our lives regardless of circumstance.

Give us this day, our daily bread:

^^ this is a very important passage, however it's not talking about food for our bodies, but rather, it is speaking about our spiritual food. We see in Luke 6:25-59 Jesus says:

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread." 35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

So we see in the same way doing the Will of the Father was Jesus' meat:

But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you know nothing about."..... My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. John 4:32-34

Our bread is to believe in Jesus and live on/and in every word of God.

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

Which we are replenished with daily, should we belong to Christ...

And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

This is important because it ever reminds us that we have to be living in action what we ask of God for ourselves, as the Bible says:

But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:15

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

This is self evident, we are asking for temptation and evil to stay at a distance that way we might not go astray from His will being lived in our lives.

And some versions have the model of prayer end also with confirmation of the sovereignty of God and then praise.

None of this example for the perfect model of prayer has anything to do with our day to day living in the physical, it is, in the main, all about our spiritual life with God, and submitting to Him daily such that He conforms us to His Will, and works His will out through our daily lives.

Therefore, while we ask for material things, we pray more often for our spiritual state, and our spiritual needs, and that spiritual relationship with Christ...

Therefore it's very difficult to converse with someone who appears unable to accept what Jesus Himself taught about prayer - when discussing prayer itself.

I pray in the model of the Lord's prayer for the spiritual every day, multiple times a day, and ask for others to pray for the physical and temporal on average of about 2 maybe 3 times a year..

So this conversation is exceedingly difficult, since you seem unable to grasp what we pray for most and the focus we see as more important than anything physical.

What God's people have is an interaction with God and His Kingdom such that if God turned His face from us today, we would know today.

It's exceedingly difficult to measure and quantify that in a manner you can understand.

From what I've seen, Christians are not better off in any way you can see and measure, quite frankly I do think non-believers get more of the measurable "stuff" (although I've certainly never sat around and tried to measure that sort of thing), but it's difficult to measure and quantify what we actually have, because we have real and immediate access to the Throne of God, and His Holy Spirit upon us - which is a thing beyond your understanding.

And all that means for the Christian is that life is going to be awesome, regardless of our condition; even during the times we pray for our cup to be taken from us....

This is a good video, his speaking about prayer begins at the 49:00 minute mark, but all that leads up to it is important to really grasp the prayer portion.

 

[thomas_t]

So when a true and earnest believer prays, their prayer will always be answered, unless the Lord sees that it was a test. Got it
[...]

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can just as easily be discarded without evidence." See below...

I thought about it for a while.
How much evidence do you ask for before you trust someone?
I generally trust people first. The moment I have evidence to mistrust them only then I ask for evidence to bolster my trust in them again.
Thomas

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I thought about it for a while.
How much evidence do you ask for before you trust someone?
I generally trust people first. The moment I have evidence to mistrust them only then I ask for evidence to bolster my trust in them again.
Thomas

Cool.
So it's like this. I have ten million dollars in a bank account. I just need another account to store it in. It's rather complicated, but I assure you it's perfectly legal and above board. Help me out, and I'll split it with you fifty-fifty.
Now all you need to do is give me your bank details, and you'll be a multi-millionaire.
Trust me!

 

[Hazelelponi]

Cool.
So it's like this. I have ten million dollars in a bank account. I just need another account to store it in. It's rather complicated, but I assure you it's perfectly legal and above board. Help me out, and I'll split it with you fifty-fifty.
Now all you need to do is give me your bank details, and you'll be a multi-millionaire.
Trust me!

Which is why I said in an earlier post:

If I were you, I'd start somewhere else besides trying to understand the relationship.. maybe first you need to understand whether or not there's even a God.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Which is why I said in an earlier post:

If I had any reason to think that there was a God, I would regard it as a matter of great importance. As it is, after many years of looking in to the matter, it is quite clear to me that, quite simply, there is no such thing as God.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If I had any reason to think that there was a God, I would regard it as a matter of great importance. As it is, after many years of looking in to the matter, it is quite clear to me that, quite simply, there is no such thing as God.

Then there's nothing to discuss is there?

Go your way in peace!