What does prayer do?

[InterestedAtheist]

No one in a state of communication with God.

Edited - your response is not uninteresting, but let's stay on topic.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Communion with God for the maintenance of a relationship is what prayer is.

I'm afraid you've misunderstood the situation. Please read carefully before posting.

In Post 45, answering hazelelponi, I never said that communion and communication with God was not a mainstream idea. I said that he was quite wrong to say that has nothing to do with getting what you want. Christians ask God for things all the time in prayer.

And lest you wish to split hairs about how "Christians should only want what God wants" let me make it clear that I am referring to Christians specifically asking God to do things when they pray.

That is the kind of prayer I would like to address in this thread. Please stay on topic.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have a question.

Imagine that God stopped answering prayers. Just as a thought experiment - I know He never would, of course! But just imagine if He did. What if, for some reason, God suddenly stopped answering prayers, without telling anyone He was going to.

What would happen?
Would people notice? How?
How would the world change as a result of prayers now going completely unanswered?

Personally, I think that if God stopped answering prayers, the world would just sink into utter chaos instead of remaining the mountain of moral muddle and mediocrity that it is and has been ...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Personally, I think that if God stopped answering prayers, the world would just sink into utter chaos instead of remaining the mountain of moral muddle and mediocrity that it is and has been ...

Hello Philo. Thank you for your answer.

Now why do you say that?
Because most people in the world aren't praying to God, are they? They're either not praying at all, or they're praying to a different god.

So either a very few people - the real, true Christians - are praying for God to keep the world from descending into chaos, and He is answering their prayers; or, they are praying for refugees to be safe, or uncles to recover from knee surgery, or for help with financial difficulties - and God is either not answering their requests OR He is answering them and also, in response to these prayers, exerting His power to stop the world descending into chaos.

So when you say that the world would sink into utter chaos if God stopped answering prayers, I am interested. Why do you say that?

(Can I just say, by the way, that I hope everyone will observe forum rules, including Christians about not debating each other).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hello Philo. Thank you for your answer.

Now why do you say that?
Because most people in the world aren't praying to God, are they? They're either not praying at all, or they're praying to a different god.

So either a very few people - the real, true Christians - are praying for God to keep the world from descending into chaos, and He is answering their prayers; or, they are praying for refugees to be safe, or uncles to recover from knee surgery, or for help with financial difficulties - and God is either not answering their requests OR He is answering them and also, in response to these prayers, exerting His power to stop the world descending into chaos.

So when you say that the world would sink into utter chaos if God stopped answering prayers, I am interested. Why do you say that?

(Can I just say, by the way, that I hope everyone will observe forum rules, including Christians about not debating each other).

Why do I say this?

Being that we're ONLY hypothesizing here, and since that's all you asked for us to do and due to this we're NOT really asserting anything that pertains to the real state of affairs in the world as it is, my answer is that:

I think -- if God stopped answering prayers, this would more than likely mean that eventually (and probably sooner than later) absolutely no one would any longer perceive that anything Divinely good or providential was ever happening, and the whole human world would more than likely give up the act of prayer once they've realized that a kind of Absolute Nihilism had settled into the world, one that would apparently not be reversed no matter what they tried to do or could do apart from praying and expecting God to at least act in some minimal way.

I mean, just think of it: what if the world wakes up one day and realizes it's 1984, ad nauseam. So sad; too bad.


​

 

[Steve97]

This question falls into the "Can God create a rock so heavy He can't move it" category.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Why do I say this?

Being that we're ONLY hypothesizing here, and since that's all you asked for us to do and due to this we're NOT really asserting anything that pertains to the real state of affairs in the world as it is, my answer is that:

I think -- if God stopped answering prayers, this would more than likely mean that eventually (and probably sooner than later) absolutely no one would any longer perceive that anything Divinely good or providential was ever happening, and the whole human world would more than likely give up the act of prayer once they've realized that a kind of Absolute Nihilism had settled into the world, one that would apparently not be reversed no matter what they tried to do or could do apart from praying and expecting God to at least act in some minimal way.

I mean, just think of it: what if the world wakes up one day and realizes it's 1984, ad nauseam. So sad; too bad.


​

Thank you. That's a reasoned argument. But I'm not sure that the logic you've chosen follows.
Your line of reasoning would make sense in a world in which everyone was a Christian, or at least a majority of people. But right now, the majority of people - the large majority - are not Christians. And of those who call themselves Christians, I think it is commonly accepted that many - most? - are not, in fact, real Christians.

So if God did stop answering prayers, first of all, the nonreligious wouldn't notice, because they aren't praying anyway. The followers of other religions wouldn't notice, since they pray to the wrong God, and the real (Christian) God doesn't answer their prayers anyway. And of the Christians, many of them wouldn't be having their prayers answered due to their not being "real" Christians.
And of the real Christians, even they might not notice. Because, as you may have heard, God always answers prayers. It's just that sometimes the answer is "no" or "not yet". Lacking the ability to see the overall pattern, these individuals would just assume that God was saying no or not yet to them, and would not realise He had stopped answering prayers altogether.

Would you agree to that?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you. That's a reasoned argument. But I'm not sure that the logic you've chosen follows.
Your line of reasoning would make sense in a world in which everyone was a Christian, or at least a majority of people. But right now, the majority of people - the large majority - are not Christians. And of those who call themselves Christians, I think it is commonly accepted that many - most? - are not, in fact, real Christians.

So if God did stop answering prayers, first of all, the nonreligious wouldn't notice, because they aren't praying anyway. The followers of other religions wouldn't notice, since they pray to the wrong God, and the real (Christian) God doesn't answer their prayers anyway. And of the Christians, many of them wouldn't be having their prayers answered due to their not being "real" Christians.
And of the real Christians, even they might not notice. Because, as you may have heard, God always answers prayers. It's just that sometimes the answer is "no" or "not yet". Lacking the ability to see the overall pattern, these individuals would just assume that God was saying no or not yet to them, and would not realise He had stopped answering prayers altogether.

Would you agree to that?

Does it matter if I agree to that? But don't feel a need to answer this since this whole OP is just ... hypothetical, and we're not talking about prayer as it actually is anyway, right?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

This question falls into the "Can God create a rock so heavy He can't move it" category.

Others don't seem to think so. There's nothing wrong with entertaining a hypothesis.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Does it matter if I agree to that? But don't feel a need to answer this since this whole OP is just ... hypothetical, and we're not talking about prayer as it actually is anyway, right?

Yes, actually, we are talking about prayer as it is. Christians believe that God hears their prayers, and sometimes gives them things if they ask Him for them.

It's true that Christians don't believe that God would stop answering prayers, of course, but imagining this allows us to examine the logical consequences of their belief that God does answer prayers.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, actually, we are talking about prayer as it is. Christians believe that God hears their prayers, and sometimes gives them things if they ask Him for them.
We're examining the logical consequences of this belief.

We are? And here I thought you were telling the truth in your OP? Oh well. I guess it's just too much to expect die-hard atheists to refrain from carrying their falsely laid and mentally constructed hypothetical experiments INTO what is typically, and not hypothetically, a polemical tirade, even if their tirade is ensconced in what seems to be a charade of pleasantries ...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

We are? And here I thought you were telling the truth in your OP? Oh well. I guess it's just too much to expect die-hard atheists to refrain from carrying their falsely laid and mentally constructed hypothetical experiments INTO what is typically, and not hypothetically, a polemical tirade, even if the tirade is ensconced in what seems to be a charade of pleasantries ...

Ouch. Nothing wrong with saying "thank you" to someone for answering you, is there?
Philo, are you just trying to avoid answering the questions because you don't like where Christian logic leads to?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ouch. Nothing wrong with saying "thank you" to someone for answering you, is there?
Philo, are you just trying to avoid answering the questions because you don't like where Christian logic leads to?

"Which" logic are you using? The one which avoids the hard, hermeneutical work that everyone REALLY needs to do FIRST? Some kind of 'logic' that engages only what is perhaps more, shall we say, a hyper-'Americanized' misconstrual of the meaning of prayer at it is presented in the Bible on the whole? A 'logic' that only takes in the latest "Name-It-And-Claim-It" pseudo interpretive measure rather than a more wholistic, hermenuetically sound position on the nature of Christian prayer like that of W. Bingham Hunter, or even some other Christian scholars who resonate with a similar interpretive apparatus as him?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

"Which" logic are you using? The one which avoids the hard, hermeneutical work that everyone REALLY needs to do FIRST? Some kind of 'logic' that engages only what is perhaps more, shall we say, a hyper-'Americanized' misconstrual of the meaning of prayer at it is presented in the Bible on the whole? A 'logic' that only takes in the latest "Name-It-And-Claim-It" pseudo interpretive measure rather than a more wholistic, hermenuetically sound position on the nature of Christian prayer like that of W. Bingham Hunter, or even some other Christian scholars who resonate with a similar interpretive apparatus as him?

Wow.
I can see I hit a nerve here.
Philo, I'm going to bed. Perhaps you'll feel more willing to engage tomorrow. Or perhaps we'll leave it here.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wow.
I can see I hit a nerve here.
Philo, I'm going to bed. Perhaps you'll feel more willing to engage tomorrow. Or perhaps we'll leave it here.

We'll leave it "here."

 

[InterestedAtheist]

We'll leave it "here."

'Kay. Goodnight.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

'Kay. Goodnight.

Good night.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I said that he was quite wrong to say

"She"

Just a small correction...

 

[Tom 1]

Why do I say this?

Being that we're ONLY hypothesizing here, and since that's all you asked for us to do and due to this we're NOT really asserting anything that pertains to the real state of affairs in the world as it is, my answer is that:

I think -- if God stopped answering prayers, this would more than likely mean that eventually (and probably sooner than later) absolutely no one would any longer perceive that anything Divinely good or providential was ever happening, and the whole human world would more than likely give up the act of prayer once they've realized that a kind of Absolute Nihilism had settled into the world, one that would apparently not be reversed no matter what they tried to do or could do apart from praying and expecting God to at least act in some minimal way.

I mean, just think of it: what if the world wakes up one day and realizes it's 1984, ad nauseam. So sad; too bad.


​

But does God only act if someone asks him to?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I see what you mean. If it was announced that God was no longer answering prayers, the "unfaithful Christians" would fall away because they could no longer get anything. Okay, fair enough. But that wasn't exactly what I was interested in.

I may need to be more precise in phrasing my question.
My next question is this:
How would people know if God stopped answering prayers? Assuming nobody announced it, what would the effects of prayers no longer being answered be?

The affects would be the same as they are today, just in spades.

What happens when someone has a loved one die and they "blame" God. They think they've done all the "right" things yet there wasn't a benefit to their personal life where they most wanted it, so they turn from God and any association with the things of God and walk their own path.

Think of this enmass, millions and millions of people walking away from any semblance of faith and any association with it, all around the same period of time..

What affect does that have? People turn to government for a fulfillment of their desires, instead of God, they look to what's tangible, what they can touch, and give themselves over wholly to that, and worry little about any sense of morality, except what touches them personally as it fills their desires for themselves.

You end up with a humanist mindset that puts all its faith in humans and what humans can do - worldwide.

hope this answers your question.