What does Born Again mean?

[d taylor]

God works through His Word and Sacraments. As already stated.

-CryptoLutheran

After doing a search in the Bible for an example of what you are saying (that God gives an unbeliever special faith to believe with).

All i found was God giving faith to believers connected with their spiritual gifts. Romans 12:3-8, 1 Corinthians 12:9

 

[JulieB67]

Being born again means born from "above"

Again Greek 509 anothen- from the first, from above, again, from the beginning.

This lines up with John 3:13

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

 

[d taylor]

God works through His Word and Sacraments. As already stated.

-CryptoLutheran

Again what are you saying, that after you do these sacraments, then God is obligated to give you this special faith.

Sure reeks of a man made idea.

 

[pescador]

Being born again means born from "above"

Again Greek 509 anothen- from the first, from above, again, from the beginning.

This lines up with John 3:13

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

Here is that verse in English, not Englyshe, " No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Again what are you saying, that after you do these sacraments, then God is obligated to give you this special faith.

Sure reeks of a man made idea.

Of course I'm not saying that, because the Sacraments aren't things we do, they are God's works, not man's.

I'm saying that acts through His word to create faith. I don't understand how this is so difficult to process.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[d taylor]

Of course I'm not saying that, because the Sacraments aren't things we do, they are God's works, not man's.

I'm saying that acts through His word to create faith. I don't understand how this is so difficult to process.

-CryptoLutheran

Well when it comes to these slippery slope theologies (like yours), it is hard to pin them down to actually what they are saying. Kind of like the ones that push repentance/turning from sin, baptism, obedience, etc.. as part of receiving eternal life

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well when it comes to these slippery slope theologies (like yours), it is hard to pin them down to actually what they are saying. Kind of like the ones that push repentance/turning from sin, baptism, obedience, etc.. as part of receiving eternal life

What's the slippery slope here? I'm saying that God saves people by His grace alone on account of what Christ has done alone, and this is through faith--all of which is from God.

What exactly is slippery about this?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[d taylor]

What's the slippery slope here? I'm saying that God saves people by His grace alone on account of what Christ has done alone, and this is through faith--all of which is from God.

What exactly is slippery about this?

-CryptoLutheran

That a person has to have a special faith given by God.

That the ability every person ever born, has a faith given to each person at birth, (which by your statements) is not sufficient for a person, to use that faith and believe in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life.

Believe what you want. But i know i can walk up to a person on the street and ask them do they want eternal life. If they answer yes, at that very moment i can tell them how and what object to believe/trust in for the free gift of eternal life.

Then they can with the faith they have, immediately trust in The Messiah for life and be forever a child of God. Nothing else is needed.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That a person has to have a special faith given by God.

That the ability every person ever born, has a faith given to each person at birth, (which by your statements) is not sufficient for a person, to use that faith and believe in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life.

Believe what you want. But i know i can walk up to a person on the street and ask them do they want eternal life. If they answer yes, at that very moment i can tell them how and what object to believe/trust in for the free gift of eternal life.

Then they can with the faith they have, immediately trust in The Messiah for life and be forever a child of God. Nothing else is needed.

And I don't believe in salvation by works. I believe that Christ's work is enough.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JulieB67]

Here is that verse in English, not Englyshe, " No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man."

You are omitting the word for "even" which is Greek 3339 houtos- "in this way (referring to what proceeds or follows) after that, in this manner, as, even for all that like, on (in like matter)".

It does not mean except.

And it's contrary to what Christ is teaching about salvation and about being born again. He actually is reiterating the fact of being born again is to be born from above. Which is what he is saying in John 3:13. That's the subject.

Again is 509, anothen -"from above, from the first, again, from the beginning.

 

[pescador]

You are omitting the word for "even" which is Greek 3339 houtos- "in this way (referring to what proceeds or follows) after that, in this manner, as, even for all that like, on (in like matter)".

It does not mean except.

And it's contrary to what Christ is teaching about salvation and about being born again. He actually is reiterating the fact of being born again is to be born from above. Which is what he is saying in John 3:13. That's the subject.

Again is 509, anothen -"from above, from the first, again, from the beginning.

John 3:13 reads, "No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." NET; "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man." NIV; " No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man." NRSV; "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." KJV; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." NASB, and so on.

I'm not sure what translation you're using or what your translation qualifications are but your explanation of what this verse means is dead wrong.

 

[JulieB67]

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." KJV

I'm using this one.

Bascially Christ is saying no one can ascend up to Heaven unless he came down from there first.

That is what John 3:3 means.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The word for "again" is Greek 509 anothen- it means from above, from the first, again, from the beginning.

So with that meaning, it should read, "except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God"

Which lines up with John 3:13

Old English or not, you lose this meaning with the newer translations.

And being born from "above" has a deeper meaning than some realize upon further study.

 

[pescador]

I'm using this one.

Bascially Christ is saying no one can ascend up to Heaven unless he came down from there first.

That is what John 3:3 means.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The word for "again" is Greek 509 anothen- it means from above, from the first, again, from the beginning.

So with that meaning, it should read, "except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God"

Which lines up with John 3:13

Old English or not, you lose this meaning with the newer translations.

And being born from "above" has a deeper meaning than some realize upon further study.

And your credentials as a translator are..?

John 3:3, " Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Guess what "above" means... it means above. 8^)

Translator's note, "The word ἄνωθεν (anōthen) has a double meaning, either “again” (in which case it is synonymous with παλίν [palin]) or “from above” (BDAG 92 s.v. ἄνωθεν). This is a favorite technique of the author of the Fourth Gospel, and it is lost in almost all translations at this point. John uses the word 5 times, in 3:3, 7; 3:31; 19:11 and 23. In the latter 3 cases the context makes clear that it means “from above.” Here (3:3, 7) it could mean either, but the primary meaning intended by Jesus is “from above.”

The above is from the New English Translation, a.k.a. NET Your criticism of "the newer translations" is meaningless and shows your prejudice.

I really lose my respect for people who, based on their unfounded prejudice, criticize "the newer translations", as though the art and science of Bible translation stopped centuries ago. Your statement that "And being born from "above" has a deeper meaning than some realize upon further study", without further explanation, is invalid. Do you have some great insight that the rest of us lack? Has God revealed something to you that He has denied the rest of us?

I believe, and will continue to believe, the translation work of recognized Biblical scholars instead of someone to whom, supposedly, knows something that the rest of us don't. It's an old "holier than thou" technique that impresses people, but not in the way you think it does.

If I said that God has revealed to me that you don't know what you're talking about, it's just as valid as your "insight" into what John was writing about.

 

[JulieB67]

"And being born from "above" has a deeper meaning than some realize upon further study", without further explanation, is invalid. Do you have some great insight that the rest of us lack? Has God revealed something to you that He has denied the rest of us?

I'm not trying to offend. Someone once planted a seed for me about those verses about being born from above and I set out to study for myself some twenty years ago. I hadn't even read the bible in it's entirety up to that point although I called myself a Christian. And it opened up a lot of different truths to me, such as (by the word of God) the earth is a lot older than some Christians believe, etc. And other false doctrines which I held onto I was able to let go.

I'm not trying to come off sounding high and mighty with some information I am only privy to. (sorry if that's how it's coming off) Quite the opposite, I am still studying and still learning to this day. I didn't post any more verses because I was only planting a seed about what could being born "from above" truly mean? If I did post scriptures, it would be quite a bit and that's why the entire bible should be taken as a whole.

I'm will to copy and past what I posted on another thread and leave it at that. Some might see them as random, but so be it.. The title of this thread is what does it mean to be born "again" Translated "above"

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

We have no time span for this.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep

was
1961 hayah
hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon, altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, use.

void
922
bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:
- emptiness, void.

So we see that the earth "became" without form and void.

How did it become that way even before man was created in the flesh?

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"


We are not talking about Noah's flood. Not one Christian is willingly ignorant about that. But not many realize that "by the word of God" -take into account what I posted about the translation of the word "was" that the heavens were of old and the earth was standing out of the water and in the water. That world perished.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

He didn't create it in vain, he formed it to be inhabited and it was.

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Notice how the the mountains trembled and the hills moved lightly? This is what we consider "our big bang" This is why you can look at maps today and it looks like everything used to fit together. This is why there is no true north on a compass and so on. God basically shook the earth in his anger. No more life, dinosaurs, etc. God didn't make the mountains tremble and the hills move during Noah's flood.

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Again, this is not Noah's flood. We had Noah and his family.

Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

It was paradise until Satan's downfall.

In Job we have a deeper study if one wants to dive into it.

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

God is asking Job where were you if you have understanding?

Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"


Job 40:15 "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox."

God is telling Job he made the behemoth at the same time he made Job, think about that.

And anyone reading God's description of the behemoth knows we are not talking about a water ox. No ox has the tail of a cedar tree.


Job 40:16 "Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly."
Job 40:18 "His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron."
Job 40:19 "He is the chief of the ways of God: He That made him can make His sword to approach unto him."
Job 40:20 "Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play,"
Job 40:21 "He lieth under the shady tree, in the covert of the reed, and fens,"
Job 40:23 "Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth."
Job 40:24 "He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares."

There's no animal on earth today that would fit this. This was a dinosaur from the "world that was". World =age.

And more verses,

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Again in the Greek is 509 word anothen-from the first, from above, from the beginning (very first)

And this lines up with John 3:13

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

There's more but again, the entire bible needs to be taken as a whole to get the complete picture. If one doesn't understand the beginning, one might never understand the end.
I'm constantly trying to move past the milk of God's word and into the meat as Paul teaches.

Not trying to offend, honestly. Take care...

 

[pescador]

I'm not trying to offend. Someone once planted a seed for me about those verses about being born from above and I set out to study for myself some twenty years ago. I hadn't even read the bible in it's entirety up to that point although I called myself a Christian. I'm not trying to come off sounding high and mighty with some information I am only privy to. (sorry if that's how it's coming off) Quite the opposite, I am still studying and still learning to this day. I didn't post any more verses because I was only planting a seed about what could being born "from above" truly mean? If I did post scriptures, it would be quite a bit and that's why the entire bible should be taken as a whole.

I'm going to copy and past what I posted on another thread and leave it at that. Some might see them as random, but so be it.. The title of this thread is what does it mean to be born "again" Translated "above"

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

We have no time span for this.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep

was
1961 hayah
hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon, altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, use.

void
922
bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:
KJV - emptiness, void.

So we see that the earth "became" without form and void.

How did it become that way even before man was created in the flesh?

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"


We are not talking about Noah's flood. Not one Christian is willingly ignorant about that. But not many realize that "by the word of God" -take into account what I posted about the translation of the word "was" that the heavens were of old and the earth was standing out of the water and in the water. That world perished.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

He didn't create it in vain, he formed it to be inhabited and it was.

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Notice how the the mountains trembled and the hills moved lightly? This is what we consider "our big bang" This is why you can look at maps today and it looks like everything used to fit together. This is why there is no true north on a compass and so on. God basically shook the earth in his anger. No more life, dinosaurs, etc. God didn't make the mountains tremble and the hills move during Noah's flood.

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Again, this is not Noah's flood. We had Noah and his family.

Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

It was paradise until Satan's downfall.

In Job we have a deeper study if one wants to dive into it.

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

God is asking Job where were you if you have understanding?

Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"


Job 40:15 "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox."

God is telling Job he made the behemoth at the same time he made Job, think about that.

And anyone reading God's description of the behemoth knows we are not talking about a water ox. No ox has the tail of a cedar tree.


Job 40:16 "Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly."
Job 40:18 "His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron."
Job 40:19 "He is the chief of the ways of God: He That made him can make His sword to approach unto him."
Job 40:20 "Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play,"
Job 40:21 "He lieth under the shady tree, in the covert of the reed, and fens,"
Job 40:23 "Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth."
Job 40:24 "He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares."

There's no animal on earth today that would fit this. This was a dinosaur from the "world that was". World =age.

And more verses,

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Again in the Greek is 509 word anothen-from the first, from above, from the beginning (very first)

And this lines up with John 3:13

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

There's more but again, the entire bible needs to be taken as a whole to get the complete picture. If you don't understand the beginning, one might never understand the end.

Not trying to offend, honestly. Take care...

Jumping back and forth from the Old Testament to the New Testament and back again, taking unconnected verses entirely out of context, shows nothing other than you're "cherry picking" verses to prove a predetermined point. That is a wonderful definition of poor, contrived exegesis. My advice is read/quote the Bible in context.

BTW, as a geographer, I can clearly say that your statement "This is why there is no true north on a compass and so on" is so untrue it boggles the mind. North is indicated on every compass and, if you're in the right location, true north and magnetic north (which is always shifting) align. If you're not on the "line" (which varies considerably from pole to pole) of zero declination you must take the difference into account. Anyone who uses a compass correctly adjusts it for the difference between true north (also called geodetic north) and magnetic north.

You said, "Notice how the the mountains trembled and the hills moved lightly? This is what we consider "our big bang"" -- in your mind perhaps, but nobody else's.

BTW, Jeremiah 24 has 10 verses only. Your verses are from Jeremiah 4.

I could go on further but I won't.

 

[JulieB67]

My mistake about Jeremiah 4. I had alot of verses up the other day.

read/quote the Bible in context

Again, I said, one should read the entire bible. And we should, chapter by chapter, verse by verse so as not lose context.

That's all I'll say on it.

 

[JulieB67]

I did quote from the right chapter, not sure what verse you're talking about. I went back to edit and didn't see it.

 

[pescador]

You are omitting the word for "even" which is Greek 3339 houtos- "in this way (referring to what proceeds or follows) after that, in this manner, as, even for all that like, on (in like matter)".

It does not mean except.

And it's contrary to what Christ is teaching about salvation and about being born again. He actually is reiterating the fact of being born again is to be born from above. Which is what he is saying in John 3:13. That's the subject.

Again is 509, anothen -"from above, from the first, again, from the beginning.

Would you please state your translation credentials? Deriving the meaning of the Greek from an interlinear (or whatever you use) means absolutely nothing. If I decide to perform surgery without having gone through medical school is just as valid. I believe what it says in the Bible translations, the work being done by trained, experienced professionals, instead of yanking a random, out-of-context, Greek term to prove a point.

Why don't you try for content, in context, instead of what you want the Bible to say?

 

[Behold]

Again what are you saying, that after you do these sacraments, then God is obligated to give you this special faith.

Sure reeks of a man made idea.

Salvation is not based on sacraments.
Its based on The Cross.

 

[Behold]

And I don't believe in salvation by works. I believe that Christ's work is enough.

-CryptoLutheran

God does not offer any "works for salvation".
He offers instead a CROSS.