What does Born Again mean?

[GenemZ]

Are you saying that some of these Christians were "born again again"?

Maybe the first regeneration didn't work so well, that they needed a stronger version?

We call that mental gymnastics.

The only thing you are now doing is to introduce confusion into what has already been clarified.

I do not see any point in trying to convince you of anything from here on. You have been given enough. Most would see it without a problem. So, why confuse others trying to follow this discussion by you dragging it away from what has been clarified, into diversionary petty arguments?

Have a nice Day.

 

[GenemZ]

Please note that your interpretation of St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians and Corinthians, despite the fact that it completely ignores the context, also contains another fallacy. Why?

Because you still have two baptisms that save, one with water for the first x years, and one with the Holy Spirit for the next y years. They may not have happened at the same time in your version, but there were still two different baptisms that save. And as you so kindly pointed out, there was a small overlap between the two where some Christians received both.

How do you suppose swinging that?

That idea is illogical in the light of what the Scriptures tell us.

You can only state your desired outcome as if it were justified, when the Bible says you still need to get your nose into it.

...........

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam, Eve, Enoch, Elijah and Methuselah all lived under the old covenant, of which the sign was circumcision. We live under the new covenant of which the sign is baptism. See Colossians 2:11-12.

There was no covenant during the time these people lived. All of these people lived before Abraham and before the old covenant was given.

 

[JohnDB]

Being born again means born from "above"

Again Greek 509 anothen- from the first, from above, again, from the beginning.

This lines up with John 3:13

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

Oh yes!!!

Let's look at the imminent theme that John is writing about...
John 1:12 is definitely about this theme.

Also I would say that Jesus doesn't really have linear conversation recorded...always Jesus is one step ahead of those he talks with.
Anyone that becomes familiar with Israel and the cultural norms of that period (some ongoing into today)
We see that Nicodemus is coming to Jesus during the social hour... daylight is for working but nights are for meeting friends. (Listening to Bon Jovi being played on the Sea of Gallilee at night is rather disconcerting)
Nicodemus instantly praises and heralds Jesus' ministry. (Not an unbeliever)

Now if I were to tell you that the Jews classified everything and everyone because they were a caste based society...no one really argues... until I mention that "Born from Above" is yet another classification of heaven sent messengers... like Sampson, Samuel, Isaac, and Jacob. Guys sent by God to perform particular tasks for all of Israel.

Also...what about the prophecy "He came into his own and his own accepted him not"
Meaning that most Jews were not going to be saved. True believers were going to be rare.

And that tradition plays a heavy part of all translations... even if those translations are wrong. Tyndale was one of the earliest translators and much of his work was based upon the work of others... doing the best they could, but hey, what's one word when you are fighting about divorce and remarriage? And by the time the Cambridge/Oxford edition of the King James Bible the damage had already been done by the Geneva Bible...there wasn't any changing it now...it would be declared a heresy.

Now with the new marketing campaigns in the late '60's and 70's for such things as Billy Graham crusades...it never was gonna stop.

 

[GenemZ]

Adam, Eve, Enoch, Elijah and Methuselah all lived under the old covenant, of which the sign was circumcision. We live under the new covenant of which the sign is baptism. See Colossians 2:11-12.

Moses was alive before Adam????? Was Abraham?

The Law came through Moses. Circumcision came through Abraham.

Adam is mentioned in the OT. That does not mean Adam was under the Law.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh yes!!!

Let's look at the imminent theme that John is writing about...
John 1:12 is definitely about this theme.

Also I would say that Jesus doesn't really have linear conversation recorded...always Jesus is one step ahead of those he talks with.
Anyone that becomes familiar with Israel and the cultural norms of that period (some ongoing into today)
We see that Nicodemus is coming to Jesus during the social hour... daylight is for working but nights are for meeting friends. (Listening to Bon Jovi being played on the Sea of Gallilee at night is rather disconcerting)
Nicodemus instantly praises and heralds Jesus' ministry.

Now if I were to tell you that the Jews classified everything and everyone because they were a caste based society...no one really argues... until I mention that "Born from Above" is yet another classification of heaven sent messengers... like Sampson, Samuel, Isaac, and Jacob. Guys sent by God to perform particular tasks for all of Israel.

Also...what about the prophecy "He came into his own and his own accepted him not"
Meaning that most Jews were not going to be saved. True believers were going to be rare.

And that tradition plays a heavy part of all translations... even if those translations are wrong. Tyndale was one of the earliest translators and much of his work was based upon the work of others... doing the best they could, but hey, what's one word when you are fighting about divorce and remarriage? And by the time the Cambridge/Oxford edition of the King James Bible the damage had already been done by the Geneva Bible...there wasn't any changing it now...it would be declared a heresy.

Now with the new marketing campaigns in the late '60's and 70's for such things as Billy Graham crusades...it never was gonna stop.

Yes the Geneva Bible influenced a lot of reformed theology into the KJV. I think these men had the right idea to reform their theology but I think it was also clouded by their reluctance to accept anything remotely Catholic. As a result they ended up at the opposite far point on the spectrum of interpretational correctness.

 

[GenemZ]

Being born again means born from "above"

Again Greek 509 anothen- from the first, from above, again, from the beginning.

This lines up with John 3:13

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

It could mean that. It could also mean what Nicodemus' ears heard. Nicodemus asked if a grown man can return back into the womb. Remember?

Jesus was describing the mechanics of regeneration. How the Spirit begets our human spirit, making us spiritually functional. Before we were born again we were only body and soul. Without a human spirit. For it is with our human spirit that the Holy Spirit teaches us the things of God.

In the Bible some words do hold a double meaning. Both meanings are to be understood by the believer for edification. But, in the context they were spoken there was a point being made. That is why we need to study. When we study the Word we can discover "double blessings."

grace and peace......

 

[BNR32FAN]

Moses was alive before Adam????? Was Abraham?

The Law came through Moses. Circumcision came through Abraham.

Adam is mentioned in the OT. That does not mean Adam was under the Law.

Yes all of those I mentioned were before circumcision and before any covenant was made between God and man.

 

[JohnDB]

Yes the Geneva Bible influenced a lot of reformed theology into the KJV. I think these men had the right idea to reform their theology but I think it was also clouded by their reluctance to accept anything remotely Catholic. As a result they ended up at the opposite far point on the spectrum of interpretational correctness.

But basically the notion of "born from above" means that as believers we all have important tasks set before us that are to benefit all of "the called out ones".
We, in order to see God face to face, must be able to be as timeless as God even though He is our Creator... meaning that we also become without time...no beginning and no end. Part of that heavenly mystery that we truly can't fathom...only apprehend.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam, Eve, Enoch, Elijah and Methuselah all lived under the old covenant, of which the sign was circumcision. We live under the new covenant of which the sign is baptism. See Colossians 2:11-12.

Another thing to consider is that all of the Pharisees were circumcised and yet not all of them were saved. Salvation in the old covenant was not about circumcision, it was about repentance and faith just as it is now. Many of the Pharisees did not seek to honor God, they sought to be honored by men.

 

[JohnDB]

It could mean that. It could also mean what Nicodemus' ears heard. Nicodemus asked if a grown man can return back into the womb. Remember?

In the Bible some words do hold a double meaning. Both meanings are to be understood by the believer for edification. But, in the context they were spoken there was a point being made. That is why we need to study. When we study the Word we can discover "double blessings."

grace and peace......

Actually it also could have meant that Nicodemus is saying that he isn't worthy and would need to have a complete life "do over" because he definitely decided that he wasn't special enough to do anything that important for God and all of Israel.

 

[GenemZ]

Actually it also could have meant that Nicodemus is saying that he isn't worthy and would need to have a complete life "do over" because he definitely decided that he wasn't special enough to do anything that important for God and all of Israel.

Nicodemus had no idea what Jesus was speaking about.

 

[Tradidi]

The only thing you are now doing is to introduce confusion into what has already been clarified.

I do not see any point in trying to convince you of anything from here on. You have been given enough. Most would see it without a problem. So, why confuse others trying to follow this discussion by you dragging it away from what has been clarified, into diversionary petty arguments?

Have a nice Day.

Now THAT is en excellent argument!

"I brought up an objection, you proved me wrong, therefore I have nothing else to convince you that I am right. Have a nice day."

Well done!

 

[Tradidi]

There was no covenant during the time these people lived. All of these people lived before Abraham and before the old covenant was given.

That is a good argument. I shall get back to you on that one.

Meanwhile consider this, did Jesus give us a new covenant, or did he recycle an old covenant? In other words, if we are saved through faith, and the saints of old were saved through faith, why did God make a different covenant with His people for a few thousand years, and then scrapped it, only to return to how it used to be?

 

[Tradidi]

Another thing to consider is that all of the Pharisees were circumcised and yet not all of them were saved. Salvation in the old covenant was not about circumcision, it was about repentance and faith just as it is now. Many of the Pharisees did not seek to honor God, they sought to be honored by men.

Like circumcision, baptism is not the winning ticket, it's the entry ticket.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But basically the notion of "born from above" means that as believers we all have important tasks set before us that are to benefit all of "the called out ones".
We, in order to see God face to face, must be able to be as timeless as God even though He is our Creator... meaning that we also become without time...no beginning and no end. Part of that heavenly mystery that we truly can't fathom...only apprehend.

I don’t understand what you mean by becoming timeless brother.

 

[JohnDB]

I don’t understand what you mean by becoming timeless brother.

This is going to be a toughy for some people.

God created Time itself. God is in time but it's not a box that can contain Him. God can move through time the way we might move through a room...
God is truly timeless... we are bound by it... currently.
meaning that to see God face to face we too must become timeless.

 

[GenemZ]

Now THAT is en excellent argument!

"I brought up an objection, you proved me wrong, therefore I have nothing else to convince you that I am right. Have a nice day."

Well done!

If your objection were Scriptural the discussion would have been continued.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is a good argument. I shall get back to you on that one.

Meanwhile consider this, did Jesus give us a new covenant, or did he recycle an old covenant? In other words, if we are saved through faith, and the saints of old were saved through faith, why did God make a different covenant with His people for a few thousand years, and then scrapped it, only to return to how it used to be?

Faith has always been the determining factor for salvation my friend. Remember it was by faith that Abraham was justified as Paul said in Romans 4. This took place shortly before God had given his covenant to Abraham. At that time there was no Mosaic Law. The law was given to show men the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice. It showed us that we are incapable of perfect obedience to God and only by God’s grace could we have any chance for salvation. The law was also meant to be a stumbling block for the Jews who sought salvation by their own merit, the Judaisers. (not sure I spelled that correctly) Paul mentions this towards then end of Romans 11. In the end all those who seek to honor God by their own merit will come to the realization that they cannot earn salvation and they will embrace Christ and be saved. This will take place in the great revival after the last Gentile has come to Christ. So the new covenant didn’t change how we are justified by God. It has always been this way since creation. By faith we are cleansed by Christ’s sacrifice. He will be the one to determine whether or not we will receive His atonement for our sin on judgement day. As long as we abide in Christ we have the hope of salvation and the hope of atonement. But if we should turn away that hope will be revoked unless we repent and turn back before it’s too late. If we die or Christ should return while we are in an unrepentant state then we will be condemned to the lake of fire for all eternity.

 

[JohnDB]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about the term "born again" and not about Baptism?

I mean to say that Baptism is certainly a very worthy subject to discuss...

But it's a different subject altogether. Kinda like Sabbath keeping...a worthy subject but a different one.