What does Born Again mean?

[BNR32FAN]

Like circumcision, baptism is not the winning ticket, it's the entry ticket.

There are many who were never circumcised or baptized who will be in heaven. The list of people I provided had not received either.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is going to be a toughy for some people.

God created Time itself. God is in time but it's not a box that can contain Him. God can move through time the way we might move through a room...
God is truly timeless... we are bound by it... currently.
meaning that to see God face to face we too must become timeless.

I don’t know I think this is a bit presumptuous, no offense my friend, but I’m not certain that we will ever truly see The Father face to face. I’m not even convinced that He has a face to be honest. I know we’re made in His image but that can mean a lot of things. No one has ever seen The Father except Jesus.

 

[JohnDB]

I don’t know I think this is a bit presumptuous, no offense my friend, but I’m not certain that we will ever truly see The Father face to face. I’m not even convinced that He has a face to be honest. I know we’re made in His image but that can mean a lot of things. No one has ever seen The Father except Jesus.

It's an ancient near eastern expression...
(Face to face)
It's not a literal thing...but it means to see someone in their entirety...and yes it's a promise to us...I can't remember where I've seen it...

 

[Tradidi]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about the term "born again" and not about Baptism?

I mean to say that Baptism is certainly a very worthy subject to discuss...

But it's a different subject altogether. Kinda like Sabbath keeping...a worthy subject but a different one.

The point being discussed is that "being born again" IS baptism. So, I think this discussion is right on topic.

 

[JohnDB]

The point being discussed is that "being born again" IS baptism. So, I think this discussion is right on topic.

Ok...
That's kinda an odd thing...but I guess I can somewhat understand...
But considering I'm one of those "born from above" guys...yeah... whatever.

Not that I'm arguing my point in favor over your beliefs...I'm just saying that where I'm familiar with the born anew theologies this Baptism angle isn't one that I'm very familiar with.

I believe what I believe and you have yours. Obviously we each think highly of our own theologies... maybe we can find out definitively who is more correct One day.

 

[Tradidi]

There was no covenant during the time these people lived. All of these people lived before Abraham and before the old covenant was given.

Thank you again for this correction. I spoke too quickly, my reply was incorrect (I must have had what some people here call a brain-fart) and did not answer the question: "Will these people go to heaven? Adam, Eve, Able, Enoch, Elijah, Methuselah? Were they ever baptized with water? There’s countless more examples of people who were never baptized in water who were justified by God."

I will try again.

Yes, there were (and 'possibly' still are) many/some people who were never baptized with water who were justified by God. Agreed.

1. What saved these people? Grace.

2. How did they receive this grace? Through Divine Faith.

3. What is Divine Faith? Divine Faith, as opposed to human faith, is believing God, repenting of sin, and obeying God. If any of these three are missing, we do not have Divine Faith.

I believe that in these three statements is contained the whole truth of salvation, and that this can be applied to all justified men that ever lived or will live.

Coming back to the original question now. Yes, there have been many people that were saved without water baptism, since they believed God, repented of sin and obeyed God. The commandments that Jesus gave us were never known or given to them and could therefore not apply to them.

But now that Jesus has told us that a man cannot see the kingdom of God unless he is born again, and since I believe that Scripture clearly teaches that being born again means to be baptised with water, I do not believe that anyone who disobeys Jesus with full knowledge and consent will be saved without water baptism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thank you again for this correction. I spoke too quickly, my reply was incorrect (I must have had what some people here call a brain-fart) and did not answer the question: "Will these people go to heaven? Adam, Eve, Able, Enoch, Elijah, Methuselah? Were they ever baptized with water? There’s countless more examples of people who were never baptized in water who were justified by God."

I will try again.

Yes, there were (and 'possibly' still are) many/some people who were never baptized with water who were justified by God. Agreed.

1. What saved these people? Grace.

2. How did they receive this grace? Through Divine Faith.

3. What is Divine Faith? Divine Faith, as opposed to human faith, is believing God, repenting of sin, and obeying God. If any of these three are missing, we do not have Divine Faith.

I believe that in these three statements is contained the whole truth of salvation, and that this can be applied to all justified men that ever lived or will live.

Coming back to the original question now. Yes, there have been many people that were saved without water baptism, since they believed God, repented of sin and obeyed God. The commandments that Jesus gave us were never known or given to them and could therefore not apply to them.

But now that Jesus has told us that a man cannot see the kingdom of God unless he is born again, and since I believe that Scripture clearly teaches that being born again means to be baptised with water, I do not believe that anyone who disobeys Jesus with full knowledge and consent will be saved without water baptism.

Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues before they were baptized.

 

[JohnDB]

Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues before they were baptized.

The same thing was true of king Saul in the Old Testament...

Not saying that you are wrong in your assertions...but that Saul's salvation or positive legacy is something else.

Saul was anointed with oil by Samuel.
Saul, at one point, was thought to be "with the prophets".
Saul failed miserably with his oaths, goals and fears.

The study of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament is a fascinating one...and willingness to receive Him doesn't seem to a prerequisite.

So where I agree with your sentiment...the logic used by Peter and the others was a tad off...but God works with whatever He wishes to...we only have our attitudes to control about it all.

 

[Tradidi]

Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues before they were baptized.

Yes, and what is your point?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, and what is your point?

my point is that they had received the i dwelling of the Holy Spirit Devore they were baptized so they were already born again before they were baptized, not after.

 

[Tradidi]

my point is that they had received the i dwelling of the Holy Spirit Devore they were baptized so they were already born again before they were baptized, not after.

The Holy Spirit also descended upon Caiphas and made him prophesy, yet Caiphas was not "born again". And in Numbers 22 the Holy Spirit even descended upon an ass and rebuked Balaam through a dumb animal that was not "born again".

The argument is not "we are baptised therefore we are born again", but rather "we are born again therefore we are baptised". Baptism is the outward sign of the inward grace. If you refuse the outward sign you refuse the inward grace. But God can and sometimes does give His grace apart from the outward sign. But that is an exception that He makes, not us. We cannot make a rule out of the exceptions that God makes. Therefore, as soon as Cornelius was taught about the rule he was baptised.

Even Jesus, who did not need to be born again, set an example of obedience, was baptised and told us to "follow my example." Jesus became "obedient unto death" (Philippians 2:8).

 

[concretecamper]

It means that, as an unbeliever, you have a nature that is sinful. It means that because Adam sinned, this caused a " lost position".., where he was no longer connected to God, spiritually.
And all who were born since Adam, have this same situation... this same spiritual condition.

Our nature, is our spiritual condition... and its UNRIGHTEOUS.
We have a dead spirit, ... dead in the sense that is not a part of God's HOLY Spirit.
God is "A" Spirit.....= Holy Spirit.
We are not holy, we are sinful, sinners, and lost. "Lost" means we are disconnected from the Holy Spirit of God.
How is this resolved? God gives us His Righteousness, and it becomes OURS.
"we are made the righteousness of GOD = IN CHRIST".
"The Gift of Righteousness".

Through our FAITH .... God BIRTHS our spirit into His, and we become "ONE" with God and Christ.
How does this happen? Thru the power of the Holy Spirit.... God literally puts His Righteousness in us, and we become it, and this creates a BIRTH in our Spirit, that connects us to God's Spirit. = Born again.
This is the "new birth", or the 2nd Birth, which creates us as a "new Creation" "In Christ".
This is how we are born again. = Jesus said : "You must be born again". John 3

What causes it?
"all that call on the name of Jesus, shall be SAVED". "Saved" means, justified in God's sight.
It means that the blood of Jesus is applied to us, which gives us a complete forgiveness that is eternal.
It causes us to be at peace with God, and it forever redeems us back into God's family.

no, it is to be Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Just like the Bible says