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What do you guys think of Putin's moves this week?

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SeventhValley

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yes, but then you have guys like Sts Alexander Nevsky and David the Restorer who went to war to defend their Orthodox homeland from non Orthodox invaders.
That is not following Christ's teaching. If you believe that is ok then the gates of hell have prevailed. Jesus taught martyrdom. For those not strong enough in faith yet war.But war is inherently sinful.

If genocide is considered holy then God truly dose not exist and power and greed is the true god of this world
 
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buzuxi02

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Lets contrast this with Christianity..

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, don’t resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. 41 Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and don’t turn away him who desires to borrow from you. 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Christianity is not a pacifist religion. There's elements that is pacifist, such as monasticm. When christians are a minority then they remain pacifist. When the society and culture are Orthodox then we pray in the liturgy for the defeat of the nations enemies. This petition is omitted in non-Orthodox nations.

Groups like the Amish, Hutterites, and Jehovahs witnesses are pacifist, they segregate themselves off from the established culture around them. They do not partake in politics and set themselves apart from the majority. There is no religion that is completely pacifist.
 
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SeventhValley

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37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me isn’t worthy of me. 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me, isn’t worthy of me. 39 He who seeks his life will lose it; and he who loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who
 
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SeventhValley

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Christianity is not a pacifist religion. There's elements that is pacifist, such as monasticm. When christians are a minority then they remain pacifist. When the society and culture are Orthodox then we pray in the liturgy for the defeat of the nations enemies. This petition is omitted in non-Orthodox nations.

Groups like the Amish, Hutterites, and Jehovahs witnesses are pacifist, they segregate themselves off from the established culture around them. They do not partake in politics and set themselves apart from the majority. There is no religion that is completely pacifist.


I I understand war if you do not yet value Christ's teachings above life. You can confess afterward. But to promote it by saying we should hate our enemies that is heresy.
 
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SeventhValley

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From Orthodox wiki

Just war

From OrthodoxWiki

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Just war doctrine attempts to define situations in which the waging of war becomes a moral necessity. It lays out criteria by which a Christian is intended to determine whether or not a specific war was entered into and is conducted in a virtuous manner, so that killing would become a moral necessity. Although the Orthodox Church has used something like a "just war" doctrine to determine when a state or empire may engage in armed conflict, it has nevertheless always considered killing even in such cases to be a sin, and has thus required the therapy of repentance.
 
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SeventhValley

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Greek Fathers According to Fr. Stanley Harakas, there is no ethical reasoning for war in the writings of the Greek Fathers. Fr. Harakas states that the fathers wrote that only negative impacts arise from war. Even in unavoidable circumstances, Fr. Harakas mentions that the fathers thought of war as the lesser of greater evils, but none the less evil. Fr. Harakas declares that the term "just war" is not found in the writings of the Greek Fathers. The stance of the Fathers on war is pro-peace and an Orthodox "just war" theory does not exist.
Orthodox wiki source
 
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SeventhValley

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St. John Chrysostom
"Christians above all men are not permitted forcibly to correct the failings of those who sin. Secular judges indeed, when they have captured malefactors under the law, show their authority to be great, and prevent them even against their will from following their own devices: but in our case the wrong-doer must be made better, not by force, but by persuasion" (St. John Chrysostom, "On the Priesthood").
 
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SeventhValley

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The Canonical Tradition of the Orthodox Church
Any act of violence contradicts the ethics and principles of the Kingdom of God. St. Basil states that although the act of violence may be required for the "defense of the weak and innocent…it is never justifiable."
Canon 13 of St. Basil

"Our Fathers did not consider the killings committed in the course of wars to be classifiable as murders at all, on the score, it seems to me, of allowing a pardon to men fighting in defense of sobriety and piety. Perhaps, though, it might be advisable to refuse them communion for three years, on the ground that they are not clean-handed."
St. Basil references the beginning of this canon to St. Athanasius in order to clarify and accurately interpret what was meant in his Letter to Amun (The Rudder). St. Basil the Great did not count the "shedding of blood" committed during wars as murder, but he does require the penitent to abstain from partaking of the Eucharist for three years. Although three years may seem harsh to us today, Fr. McGuckin states that this "was actually a commonly recognized sign of merciful leniency in the ancient rule book of the early Church."Canon 83 of the Holy Apostles

"If any Bishop, or Priest, or Deacon is engaged in military matters, and wishes to hold both a Roman (i.e.; civil) and a holy office, let him be deposed. For "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s" (Matthew 22:21).
 
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SeventhValley

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Question Number 46:

What is the Orthodox view on war and military service?

ANSWER:

Orthodoxy takes in account the fullness of Biblical teaching, as well as the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, both pre and post Nicene. Orthodox Christianity views war and killing as sinful. In Orthodox canonical rules, soldiers who had to kill at war - which is recognized as unavoidable in certain cases - are subject to penance. Orthodox Clergy are never allowed to take part in warfare, and the fact that Latin clergy were soldiers at the times of the Crusades was especially intolerable to the Orthodox.

Orthodox Answer To a Question About War, Military Service - Answer #46
 
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buzuxi02

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I I understand war if you do not yet value Christ's teachings above life. You can confess afterward. But to promote it by saying we should hate our enemies that is heresy.

I said nothing about hating our enemies, I spoke about prayers for the defeat of our enemies. There's also a prayer for pacifying the nations and forgiveness.

A (lingering) hatred of the enemy in terms of geopolitics usually arises from a national humiliation. Unfortunately This is what NATO has been manufacturing through psyops and manipulation. Whether through "balkanization" or the demonizing of a specific group of people so their adversary can go running to the bosom of NATO to be protected from the bogeyman..
 
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@SeventhValley

Orthodox Answer To a Question About War, Military Service - Answer #46 - and good addition in this answer:
"erhaps the most remarkable and culturally relevant illustration of the Orthodox attitude towards war is contained in the history of the life of St. Sergius of Radonezh, who blessed Prince Dmitry Donskoy to engage the enemy...nd only when the prince confirmed that he had taken all possible measures so as to conciliate this warlike and yet inexorable Khan did St. Sergius give his blessing"

conclusion by default: no way out - so fight.

Moreover, St.Sergius blessed two monks to help Dmitry Donskoy. That battle with tartars is legendary for Russia.
Modern image of these events:
blessening -
blagoslovenie-sergiya.jpg

peace version of monk:
oslyabya.jpg

military version of monk:
pobeda-peresveta.jpg
 
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ArmyMatt

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That is not following Christ's teaching. If you believe that is ok then the gates of hell have prevailed. Jesus taught martyrdom. For those not strong enough in faith yet war.But war is inherently sinful.

If genocide is considered holy then God truly dose not exist and power and greed is the true god of this world

for one, neither of those guys that I mentioned is genocidal. for two, I find it funny that you will quote our priests and ignore the lives of our saints. for three, I never said war is a good thing. I said in our fallen (ie sinful) state, it is necessary, but it is never good.
 
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SeventhValley

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for one, neither of those guys that I mentioned is genocidal. for two, I find it funny that you will quote our priests and ignore the lives of our saints. for three, I never said war is a good thing. I said in our fallen (ie sinful) state, it is necessary, but it is never good.

I learned from Orthodox web sites that just because a Saint did something dose not mean it is blessed by the church.
 
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SeventhValley

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@SeventhValley

Orthodox Answer To a Question About War, Military Service - Answer #46 - and good addition in this answer:
"erhaps the most remarkable and culturally relevant illustration of the Orthodox attitude towards war is contained in the history of the life of St. Sergius of Radonezh, who blessed Prince Dmitry Donskoy to engage the enemy...nd only when the prince confirmed that he had taken all possible measures so as to conciliate this warlike and yet inexorable Khan did St. Sergius give his blessing"

conclusion by default: no way out - so fight.

Moreover, St.Sergius blessed two monks to help Dmitry Donskoy. That battle with tartars is legendary for Russia.
Modern image of these events:
blessening -
blagoslovenie-sergiya.jpg

peace version of monk:
oslyabya.jpg

military version of monk:
pobeda-peresveta.jpg


While I am a bit unsure about war (which I have participated in but luckily never was put in a position where I had to kill) I love the art that you shared :)
 
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ArmyMatt

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I learned from Orthodox web sites that just because a Saint did something dose not mean it is blessed by the church.

true, but I learned from actually being Orthodox that depending on the situation it can be, depending on what the other outcome could be. some of these are not so black and white
 
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This goes both ways. Putin and the hardliners in Russia portray NATO as the boogeyman and the United States as this nasty villain. With state-run media controlling ONE voice, Putin's, he can pummel people's minds with propaganda with impunity. You can blast the CIA as interfering meddlers, and I can give you the same on a platter with the exact analogous interference, intrigue, and corrupt power-mongering---the KGB and later FSB.

Bottom line is Russia is Orthodox. So are we. It's a really big oversimplification to think that since Putin and the Russians are Orthodox that they are in the right, and the evil West is in the wrong.

I think this passionate patriotism for foreign Orthodox countries and a self-hatred toward our own mother land is not only unhealthy, but it perpetuates the stereotypes of non-Orthodox about us that we're ethnically-centered and that some of us have more loyalties to enemy nations than our own.

I am sharply critical of the CIA like you are. I think every American president has had his hands soiled in some major coup or "intervention" or cheesy war to further the military-industrial complex, but I also am not going to throw my country under the bus completely. This country has done great things for its people, for the world, and we've offered more aid and help as well as support for most of the world than Russia has ever thought of offering. We've done great harm in bad foreign policy, but we've also saved lives, fought for freedom for so many, and have in many ways made the world a better place as well. We're a mixed bag.

At some point, I must say, it sounds like some posts in TAW are rooting for Russia's victory, and the West's demise. And for people looking into Orthodoxy, inquiring, that might produce some scary reactions. I would've been aghast and probably turned and run if I had read some of this pro-Russia/Russia can do no wrong/America sucks and is the root of all evils stuff when I first came here! :o:o:o

Orthodoxy is a faith, not a nation. It's right teaching and holy sacraments, not a politburo or a congress or an army or black ops. It's a spiritual refuge in an ugly world, not a flag or a manifesto of seculars. Orthodoxy should know no borders or exclusivities of language or color, dress or cuisine. It's a faith created by Christ Jesus Himself, not a patriotic allegiance. I can't speak for everyone, but if you look at me, I'm American born and raised. Proud to be one. I don't wish for its demise. Then there is Tapi, from Finland, proud of his country, Orthodox like me, and yet scared of Russian incursion. Then there is Jesus Madrid from Spain, Orthodox, Spaniard. There are folks in here from all walks of life and nations. We don't all look to Russia for hope and her victories or failures don't further Orthodoxy or affect me. Just as I don't trust Putin and raise an eyebrow at his intrigues, I do the same with Obama and his pro-sodomy agenda and socially decaying principles.

I said nothing about hating our enemies, I spoke about prayers for the defeat of our enemies. There's also a prayer for pacifying the nations and forgiveness.

A (lingering) hatred of the enemy in terms of geopolitics usually arises from a national humiliation. Unfortunately This is what NATO has been manufacturing through psyops and manipulation. Whether through "balkanization" or the demonizing of a specific group of people so their adversary can go running to the bosom of NATO to be protected from the bogeyman..
 
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buzuxi02

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This goes both ways. Putin and the hardliners in Russia portray NATO as the boogeyman and the United States as this nasty villain. With state-run media controlling ONE voice, Putin's, he can pummel people's minds with propaganda with impunity. You can blast the CIA as interfering meddlers, and I can give you the same on a platter with the exact analogous interference, intrigue, and corrupt power-mongering---the KGB and later FSB.

Exactly, theres propaganda on both sides. By the way in western Ukraine there is absolutely no '"free" media coverage, everything reported about this war is Kiev government controlled -and if they did report the truth, the puppets in Kiev would have been lynched in public executions by now.


Bottom line is Russia is Orthodox. So are we. It's a really big oversimplification to think that since Putin and the Russians are Orthodox that they are in the right, and the evil West is in the wrong.

Your right, but in this case the west is wrong and is being evil. The fact that over 400,000 ukrainian refugees have sought asylum in 'evil' Russia (Im even positive western media is not disputing this number). How many have gone to western Ukraine to flee the fighting? I would say not many at all because everyone knows the media would be interviewing them and demonizing Putin because of the 'humanitarian crisis'. It would be plastered all over our media, cameras 24/7 at refugee camps, but since they fled into Russia everyone is mum about it.



I think this passionate patriotism for foreign Orthodox countries and a self-hatred toward our own mother land is not only unhealthy, but it perpetuates the stereotypes of non-Orthodox about us that we're ethnically-centered and that some of us have more loyalties to enemy nations than our own.


I make no secrets that I would support an Orthodox nation over this one (depending on the circumstances of course), as I've said before blood is thicker than water.



I am sharply critical of the CIA like you are. I think every American president has had his hands soiled in some major coup or "intervention" or cheesy war to further the military-industrial complex, but I also am not going to throw my country under the bus completely. This country has done great things for its people, for the world, and we've offered more aid and help as well as support for most of the world than Russia has ever thought of offering. We've done great harm in bad foreign policy, but we've also saved lives, fought for freedom for so many, and have in many ways made the world a better place as well. We're a mixed bag.

I certainly understand that, and am in agreement with you.


At some point, I must say, it sounds like some posts in TAW are rooting for Russia's victory, and the West's demise. And for people looking into Orthodoxy, inquiring, that might produce some scary reactions.

To be quite honest with you, I am. In fact I think this country's demise as an empire will help prolong it. We have over reached, and we are indeed in decline over it. If we keep it up our demise will come sooner than we can imagine. Same goes for Europe, their values are certainly not my values. I am even hopeful that this whole fiasco can further decouple Russia from Europe so they can seek closer ties with Asian nations.


Orthodoxy is a faith, not a nation. It's right teaching and holy sacraments, not a politburo or a congress or an army or black ops. It's a spiritual refuge in an ugly world, not a flag or a manifesto of seculars. Orthodoxy should know no borders or exclusivities of language or color, dress or cuisine. It's a faith created by Christ Jesus Himself, not a patriotic allegiance. I can't speak for everyone, but if you look at me, I'm American born and raised. Proud to be one. I don't wish for its demise. Then there is Tapi, from Finland, proud of his country, Orthodox like me, and yet scared of Russian incursion. Then there is Jesus Madrid from Spain, Orthodox, Spaniard. There are folks in here from all walks of life and nations. We don't all look to Russia for hope and her victories or failures don't further Orthodoxy or affect me. Just as I don't trust Putin and raise an eyebrow at his intrigues, I do the same with Obama and his pro-sodomy agenda and socially decaying principles.


I agree with what your saying. Putin is a politician like any other, granted I think he is a better statesman than anyone in the west. I am a greek, first generation born in America, but I do strongly dislike western values and culture, from the pro-sodomy agenda, to hollywood values, multiculturalism, humanism, feminism, oh heck forget it the list goes on. I do like Harley Davidsons and muscle cars and comics though :)
 
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ripple the car

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This is a really old thread...but it's very much relevant for me right now. Thank you to everyone who's responded. God bless you guys. Just wondering, if you are Orthodox and in the armed forces, what does one do if one is commanded to make a move one finds questionable morally or spiritually? Does one obey orders, or does one get to say "no, as a follower of Christ, I can not do this"?
 
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prodromos

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When Arsenios (later to become St Paisios) was in the Greek army during the 2nd world war he faced this very dilemma. He begged Panagia to keep him from being put in a situation where he would be forced to harm someone. In the end he was made a signalman which required him to carry the big radio on his back as well as the heavy batteries. For the future ascetic it was perfect.
 
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