What are worse? Atheist or Christian sinners?

[FaithLikeARock]

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is at its core a rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Once that is done, ALL sins are forgiven.

Actually no, the Bible says blaspheming and rejection Jesus is forgivable. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is not forgivable.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

You guys keep saying that, but the fact is, people come to faith because of other people, and situations caused by other people. God hasn't saved a single person - other people have told them God has saved them when in actuality, that other person has done all the work.

 

[Tergle]

Let me repeat. The church going experience is not about a PERSON. It as about worshipping Christ.

The Church is not there to make your church-going experience "enjoyable". If you don't enjoy worshipping Christ, there is NOTHING the Church can do to make you enjoy or not enjoy.

Like I said, save the "former" believer stuff for another thread. The stuff that has been said is the classic tale of someone who did not ever know Christ, and was suddenly put off because he found out that Christians, though redeemed, are not perfect.

The Church is the exact place that hypocrites need to be. If there is any type of church discipline taking place, the hypocrites will be corrected and rebuked by other Christians.

Some folks seem to be under the impression that when they step into a church, all the sin in a person's life disappears.

Christians STILL sin. By they are no longer condemned by their sin.

No you don't. And as I said this whole walking away from the faith thing is best suited for another thread. We've had plenty.

I used to be an atheist. What baby knows anything about reality. I don't ever remember believing in a deity until I had many choices of things to think about. Christ makes complete sense to me as I investigated the real world outside my home walls and added up what was going on.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Zaac, I brought up my leaving the faith as an example of a point.

YOU THREE are the ones obsessing over it with your overly long posts long after I made it clear that I wasn't interested, so don't start lecturing me about being off topic.

 

[Tergle]

You guys keep saying that, but the fact is, people come to faith because of other people, and situations caused by other people. God hasn't saved a single person - other people have told them God has saved them when in actuality, that other person has done all the work.

And no wonder you walked away.

There is no one between you and Christ. If you put your value in people, you made the only choice you could about staying in a Church.

 

[Tergle]

Zaac, I brought up my leaving the faith as an example of a point.

YOU THREE are the ones obsessing over it with your overly long posts long after I made it clear that I wasn't interested, so don't start lecturing me about being off topic.

 

[Zaac]

Actually no, the Bible says blaspheming and rejection Jesus is forgivable. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is not forgivable.

Part of the problem is that you reject Jesus Christ and are now trying to teach the word for which HE gives discernment.

When Christ forgives sin, He forgives ALL sin. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is at it's core rejecting Jesus Christ and thus would leave all sin unforgiven.

If accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior gets all of your past, present, and futre sin forgiven, there is no magic sin left that has not been forgiven.

A Christian cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit as all of the Christian's past, present and future sins have all been forgiven.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Not so much teaching as I am directly citing.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.- Matthew 12:32

 

[Tergle]

Part of the problem is that you reject Jesus Christ and are now trying to teach the word for which HE gives discernment.

When Christ forgives sin, He forgives ALL sin. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is at it's core rejecting Jesus Christ and thus would leave all sin unforgiven.

If accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior gets all of your past, present, and futre sin forgiven, there is no magic sin left that has not been forgiven.

A Christian cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit as all of the Christian's past, present and future sins have all been forgiven.

Zaac,

You hit it out of the park pal.

 

[Tergle]

Not so much teaching as I am directly citing.

For what reason? You are a deist.

 

[Zaac]

And no wonder you walked away.

There is no one between you and Christ. If you put your value in people, you made the only choice you could about staying in a Church.

If you're looking at other people instead of Christ, then of course you're gonna be greatly disappointed.

People come to faith in GOD because GOD draws them.43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. John 6:43-44

 

[Zaac]

Not so much teaching as I am directly citing.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.- Matthew 12:32

Again Faith,the very God WHom you reject gives discernmet for His word. And you seem to missing the understanding of the FULL COUNSEL of His word.

Christians have no unforgiven sin.

While non-Christians have nothing but unforgiven sin. So if Christians have none, and non-Christians have nothing but unforgiven sin, what does that make blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Only unforgiven people can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It's unforgiveable because ALL of the sin of the rejectors of Christ is unforgiven.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Alright, since you guys can't seem to get off your high and mighty pedestal and seem bent on insisting Christians can absolutely do no wrong and you have no prior obligation to make the religion appear appealing or at the very least, not hypocritical, then you get the full story. I wasn't going to do this, since I know it's not on topic, I was going to give a quick summary. But you all chose to jump all over it.

I had been going to church for about 10 years. Around the time I started charter school I came to this forum and many others, and began debating, and ran into a lot of unsavory Christians. I began to open my eyes and notice even those who follow god aren't the most godly people in the world. I was still a Christian for 3 years after this, even though I had dissociated with the name "Christian" because of the connotations it had in the field - but I still believed. It wasn't until just before I started college I began to foster some doubts.

So I started to turn to people for support, and answers to questions - and got literally none. I got no personal support but rather mindlessly quoting Bible verses and pre-recorded lectures. There was nothing personal there. So I started studying on my own, finding things that - from an objective standpoint - didn't make sense. Went back, trying to figure these things out, and the only answer I could ever get was "Well God works in mysterious ways".

And then I realized - if God works in mysterious ways, how am I supposed to communicate with him? Why would god give us so many earthly helper guides but then expect us to be dedicated to HIM?

To me, the whole "IT'S BETWEEN YOU AND GOD" is just an excuse, and you guys just proved it. Because you could've said that once and be done. Instead of you have incessantly responded to every little thing, patted each other on the back, and done everything BUT leave it between me and god - you've gone out of your way to get between me and god with your insistence.

There is no "between you and god", zero, everything is communicated through another person, through the Bible, or through your own conscious.

You hear about what you're supposed to view as moral through your pastor.
You read about how you're supposed to act through the Bible.
You pray, but I've heard those prayers, and it's all one way conversation.

I tried having a "relationship" with god and it took ten years for me to realize I never had a relationship with him - I had a relationship with my church and myself and had been convinced to believe that this was a relationship with god, when such a thing never existed. Hence, when those people who I had built a relationship with started to show their true colors, my relationship with them faded, and so went my relationship with "god" as well.

So, how about instead of picking on the little girl from California just because she confessed she left the Christian faith, and trying to belittle her because she says it's because of how people acted, trying to judge the real reasons when you don't know her, don't know her background, don't know what she's seen or how she feels, you go fix the true, recognizable problem of people in YOUR faith giving YOUR faith the bad name it has.

Because I don't much appreciate being told how I think by strangers on the Internet who have never met me based on a single sentence - especially when it's under the guise you put up. You are the reasons I can never believe in anything like god again - because I know the truth. There are those who truly believe. And there are those who believe just so that can feel superior to everyone else.

 

[Cuddles333]

What are worse? Atheist or Christian sinners?

Which are worse in God's eyes and why?

Of course Christians who are practicing sinners are the worse. They become extra ammunition for Satan to use in keeping people from coming to Christ.

 

[allhart]

I'm dragging everyone to hell for speaking of and for God. Can please some people some of the time and some none of the time.

 

[Zaac]

Alright, since you guys can't seem to get off your high and mighty pedestal and seem bent on insisting Christians can absolutely do no wrong and you have no prior obligation to make the religion appear appealing or at the very least, not hypocritical, then you get the full story. I wasn't going to do this, since I know it's not on topic, I was going to give a quick summary. But you all chose to jump all over it.

Who said that Christians could do no wrong? How many times do I have to say tha Christians will continue to sin, BUT(and this is the key), ALL of the sin that a Christian will ever commit or has ever committed is forgiven by Jesus Christ. It is as though the Christian never sinned. That is the gift of salvation that came through God's amazing gace and saved all the sorry wretches who have ever been saved.

I had been going to church for about 10 years. Around the time I started charter school I came to this forum and many others, and began debating, and ran into a lot of unsavory Christians. I began to open my eyes and notice even those who follow god aren't the most godly people in the world.

That's true. But as you've been told, Christians aren't perfect. They continue to sin. But after they have been created anew and the Holy Spirit resides inside, their want tos should start to change. This is the Holy SPirit reshaping them into the image of God while doing away with the stuff that does not look like God.

It's a process and it takes time.

I was still a Christian for 3 years after this, even though I had dissociated with the name "Christian" because of the connotations it had in the field - but I still believed. It wasn't until just before I started college I began to foster some doubts.

Like I siad, a topic for another thread. The devil himself believes and he is getting tossed into the lake of fire.

So I started to turn to people for support, and answers to questions - and got literally none. I got no personal support but rather mindlessly quoting Bible verses and pre-recorded lectures. There was nothing personal there. So I started studying on my own, finding things that - from an objective standpoint - didn't make sense. Went back, trying to figure these things out, and the only answer I could ever get was "Well God works in mysterious ways".

I'm sorry that the church let you down. But GOD has a prescribed order in which things must be done. If you want the truth, then seek the One who IS the Truth. Where men have failed you, GOD is up to the task.

Stop looking at men as you have already confessed to doing A LOT, and start looking to GOD.

And then I realized - if God works in mysterious ways, how am I supposed to communicate with him? Why would god give us so many earthly helper guides but then expect us to be dedicated to HIM?

The word of God says Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight Proverbs 3:5-6

e gives His discernement to those who have trusted Him. He sends disciples to those who need discipling and teaching.

There is at no time that you should place sinful men who walk the same sinful ground that you do ahead of HOLY GOD.

To me, the whole "IT'S BETWEEN YOU AND GOD" is just an excuse, and you guys just proved it. Because you could've said that once and be done. Instead of you have incessantly responded to every little thing, patted each other on the back, and done everything BUT leave it between me and god - you've gone out of your way to get between me and god with your insistence.

Here's the deal. GOD HIMSELf has given us a Great Commission to take His Gospel to Jerusalem, Judeah, samaria and the outermost parts. we are to give yu the Good News that points to him.

The Bible says 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Romans 10:12-15

We are COMMANDED to that which points you to Christ. And without fail, the truth will generally offend.

There is no "between you and god", zero, everything is communicated through another person, through the Bible, or through your own conscious.

The only way to come to Christ is by yourself. It is a personal decision.

You hear about what you're supposed to view as moral through your pastor.
You read about how you're supposed to act through the Bible.

If the pastor is preaching God's word, that's what you should hear. God gave you His word as a guide for how those ho ae HOLy are supposed to behave.

You pray, but I've heard those prayers, and it's all one way conversation.

Prayer is supposed to be you talking to God. God will in turn, answer when He is ready to. You will generally get a Yes, No, or not yet.

God answes prayers all the time. SOme folks just don't acknowledge His answer as such.

I tried having a "relationship" with god and it took ten years for me to realize I never had a relationship with him - I had a relationship with my church and myself and had been convinced to believe that this was a relationship with god, when such a thing never existed.

But this is to what I was referring. You were never a Christian as you just admitted. You went to a church and partook of the programs. That did not make you a Christian anymore than sitting yourself in a garage makes you a car.

Hence, when those people who I had built a relationship with started to show their true colors, my relationship with them faded, and so went my relationship with "god" as well.

Here is a little caveat that I teach all of my Sunday School kids: Every relationship that you enter is to be a reflection of your relationship with Christ.

If you don't have a relationship with Christ, then you will struggle in all of your other relationships.

So, how about instead of picking on the little girl from California just because she confessed she left the Christian faith, and trying to belittle her because she says it's because of how people acted, trying to judge the real reasons when you don't know her, don't know her background, don't know what she's seen or how she feels, you go fix the true, recognizable problem of people in YOUR faith giving YOUR faith the bad name it has.

I'm not picking. I'm trying to show you what you admitted which was that you have NEVER been in a relationship with Jesus Christ. You were in a relationship with some folks at a church. And when they failed your expectations, the house of cards collapsed.

The Bible says Do not put your trust in princes,
in human beings, who cannot save.
4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
on that very day their plans come to nothing.
Psalm 146:3-4

Maybe you were dealing with a bunch of folks who also didn't have a relationship with Christ. You were there with them and didn't have a relationship with Him. So maybe they didn't either. As such, they may have been acting EXACTLY the way unsaved people should be expected to act.

Because I don't much appreciate being told how I think by strangers on the Internet who have never met me based on a single sentence - especially when it's under the guise you put up. You are the reasons I can never believe in anything like god again - because I know the truth. There are those who truly believe. And there are those who believe just so that can feel superior to everyone else.

You have got to be an American Democrat. And that is not meant as a put down. But rather to say that American Democrats have a tendency to blame everybody else for what THEY have done.

YOU and YOU ALONE are responsible for what you believe or don't believe. And as much as it assuages your feelings to believe that someone else is to blame, the onus of belief falls right back on YOUR shoulders.

When you stand before God in judgment, He isn't gonna ask about what someone else did or didn't do. He's going to judge YOU based upon what YOU did/did not do.

And that applies for EVERYONE...even little girls from California.

 

[Zaac]

What are worse? Atheist or Christian sinners?




Of course Christians who are practicing sinners are the worse. They become extra ammunition for Satan to use in keeping people from coming to Christ.

I hope this was tinged with sarcasm. Nevertheless, God sees those who rject Him as worse.

Christians are perfect in His eyes because He sees the righteousness of Jesus christ.

 

[GigageiTsula]

We're all sinners who fall short of the glory of God. I think (and it's just my personal opinion) that someone who walks away from God and rejects salvation in Christ Jesus after receiving Him will have it worse on the Day of Judgment. I believe this because of what is written in Hebrews 10:29.

 

[Zaac]

We're all sinners who fall short of the glory of God. I think (and it's just my personal opinion) that someone who walks away from God and rejects salvation in Christ Jesus after receiving Him will have it worse on the Day of Judgment. I believe this because of what is written in Hebrews 10:29.

OSAS is a subject that we have worn out on this board. If only GOD can save us, there is nothing of our own power we can do to unsave us.

If sin could unsave s, there was NO purpose to the Cross. And there is no purpose to us preaching the GOOD NEWS to anyone.

Jesus has not told us that He has to keep forgiving us of sin again and again. You accept Him and it is a one time thing.

Our morality can't save us and our immorality can't unsave us.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Zaac, you can't say "God has the prescription - it's all about god" then simultaneously cite a verse that says God doesn't tell us anything, but tell us through people.

People who tend to fail.

Also, you just compared me to the devil and what's worse, to Democrats (chill, tis a joke), so I think we're through here. If God is real, I would hope he's going to be harder on the Christians that have twisted and distorted his word, represented him when they had no place too, and consistently isolated and degraded non-believers because THOSE are the people working for the devil, by driving people away from God. You can try to hide behind "well it's your own decision" but all believers are called upon to spread the word and the way you have spoken to me, the way you have treated me, you are doing the exact opposite. And that is YOUR fault yet you have no desire to admit it. I never once said anyone made me leave - I take full responsibility for leaving. But everything is motivated by a reason - I simply gave you the reason I left - and those reasons are you. And rather than take that, see the harm it does to your mission as a Christian, and changing your attitude, you have decided to ignore it and insult me further.

If that day does come, your judgment will be far worse than mine.