What are the conditions for salvation?

[Ceallaigh]

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It is right in The Bible, Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, Phillip, etc... all taught belief in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation. You may can say at some point the Catholic church and Orthodox began changing the message. But their view was birthed and created by them and did not come from The Bible and Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, Phillip, etc.

As far as I know the only change that took place along those lines happened in the 1500s. There are things that were added later on that isn't supported by scripture, but the original teaching of the conditions of salvation isn't one of them.

 

[Ceallaigh]

As I stated in that post: "Unpacked and properly understood, that's the most profound and concise summary of the gospel I've ever heard."

Either way, if the statement, itself, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love", doesn't ring true, then there's more work to be done in understanding the Good News.

That saying is rather vague by itself and was supplied by a priest and mystic called St. John of the Cross (1542-1591) who was also a reformer.

 

[fhansen]

That saying is rather vague by itself and was supplied by a priest and mystic called St. John of the Cross (1542-1591) who was also a reformer.

Yes, it was supplied by him. And he knew the faith-and God- quite deeply. And the RCC agrees, quoting that statement in the catechism, para 1022. That statement also pretty well sums up the writings of many of the early fathers, incidentally. And, yes, all saints have been reformers, generally speaking, with fresh zeal for God.

 

[fhansen]

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​

It is right in The Bible, Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, Phillip, etc... all taught belief in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation. You may can say at some point the Catholic church and Orthodox began changing the message. But their view was birthed and created by them and did not come from The Bible and Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, Phillip, etc.

In any of the ancient churches, whether in the east or the west along with the early fathers, Christ is the center of it all. Without Him we don't even know God, a God truly worth knowing, believing in, hoping in, and loving.

 

[Guojing]

Secondly also I'd read the first letter of John to gain a fuller understanding of what he thinks God requires of us.

Well said, when people try to use the book of John to prove salvation is by grace thru faith alone, basically by inserting Pauline teaching into that book, I wonder whether they even read 1 John.

No one who reads 1 John, thru all 3 chapters, and understand it literally will come to the conclusion that John was teaching that.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, obedience is required-after the free gift of justification. The Reformers mistakenly identified justification with strictly receiving a vicarious righteousness. But justification, along with forgiveness of sin, is to become new creations, with new hearts; it's to receive the gift of righteousness that comes only from God, which is attested to all through Romans. It's to have grace, the seed of God's life, implanted into us. Our part is to walk in that righteousness, to accept, embrace, "invest", or express it throughout our lives. Because we can also turn back away from it, from Him, and to the world and the flesh.

If I give you a car and claim its a "free gift", but I say you are required to obey me after you get that car, otherwise you will lose that car, is the car still a free gift to you?

 

[fhansen]

If I give you a car and claim its a "free gift", but I say you are required to obey me after you get that car, otherwise you will lose that car, is the car still a free gift to you?

Well, first of all God can set it up however He wants, as could you or I. As it is, God's purpose isn't to simply save a portion of otherwise worthless sinners but to draw and move us into increasing righteousness, restoring justice and even increasing it in His wayward creation as we come into alignment and agreement with His perfect wisdom and will.. He's producing something here that necessarily requires our participation as co-creators, to the best extent we can. Not because He must, but because that's what He wants for and from us for our own highest good.

The justice or righteousness given at justification is free; we can't earn it or attain it; it only comes from God- as we turn to Him. But we aren't forced to remain in Him, to appreciate His love. So yes, with the grace, with the gifts given, we work out our salvation together with He who works in us. Perfect justice/righteousness would mean to be perfected in love where we would be irreversibly bound to God in will-and full obedience would flow of its own accord, And that's a process, a journey to the purpose and perfection we were created for. Meanwhile we can still fail at loving as we should; we can return to sin, to the flesh. God is not mocked; those who love Him are overcoming sin. Anything else is just talk. We'd be trampling on His gift otherwise.

 

[Guojing]

Well, first of all God can set it up however He wants, as could you or I. As it is, God's purpose isn't to simply save a portion of otherwise worthless sinners but to draw and move us into increasing righteousness, restoring justice and even increasing it in His wayward creation as we come into alignment and agreement with His perfect wisdom and will.. He's producing something here that necessarily requires our participation as co-creators, to the best extent we can. Not because He must, but because that's what He wants for and from us for our own highest good.

The justice or righteousness given at justification is free; we can't earn it or attain it; it only comes from God- as we turn to Him. But we aren't forced to remain in Him, to appreciate His love. So yes, with the grace, with the gifts given, we work out our salvation together with He who works in us. Perfect justice/righteousness would mean to be perfected in love where we would be irreversibly bound to God in will-and full obedience would flow of its own accord, And that's a process, a journey to the purpose and perfection we were created for. Meanwhile we can still fail at loving as we should; we can return to sin, to the flesh. God is not mocked; those who love Him are overcoming sin. Anything else is just talk. We'd be trampling on His gift otherwise.

Of course God can set up however he wants. But he will not call it a free gift in those cases. That is my point.

As I already stated, salvation was not always by grace thru faith alone at ALL times, in scripture. You must learn to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yes, it was supplied by him. And he knew the faith-and God- quite deeply. And the RCC agrees, quoting that statement in the catechism, para 1022. That statement also pretty well sums up the writings of many of the early fathers, incidentally. And, yes, all saints have been reformers, generally speaking, with fresh zeal for God.

I was going along with you when it comes to foundational soteriology taught by the apostolic and early church fathers. But Juan Alvarez is a 1000 years away from them. And if all Catholic saints are reformers, that means the RCC has been reformed 10,000 times.

 

[Ceallaigh]

In any of the ancient churches, whether in the east or the west along with the early fathers, Christ is the center of it all. Without Him we don't even know God, a God truly worth knowing, believing in, hoping in, and loving.

That's the view he holds to.

 

[fhansen]

Of course God can set up however he wants. But he will not call it a free gift in those cases. That is my point.

As I already stated, salvation was not always by grace thru faith alone at ALL times, in scripture. You must learn to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)

And yet according to Scripture were not saved by faith alone. We're saved by obedience, holiness, keeping the commandments, loving God, loving each other, forgiving each other, doing good, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, no longer being a slave to sin. These are works of grace, and the avenue to that grace, to that life of God in the Spirit, is faith. We're saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9)-but not by the mere act of faith alone. And not because faith guarantees that we'll do those things. Faith is the vehicle to the love that puts God first and acts for the good of the other as it's the vehicle to God, Himself, the Source of that love. So, love does those things and that love is both a supernatural gift and a human choice, to embrace and express that gift. We're saved unto righteousness, holiness, without which we won't see God; otherwise we'll remain in our sins, condemned. Or we can taste of the heavenly gift and fall back away (Heb 6:6), come to the knowledge of Christ and then become entangled in the world again. (2 Pet 20). `

Paul said this,
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

Augustine said this,
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

Paul, again,
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

We must do our part; we must pick up our cross and follow daily. Then He judges how we've done with the gifts given. We cannot possibly be saved apart from God, but we can still refuse to be saved at the end of the day. It has do do with how we've lived, not just what we say we've believed.

 

[Guojing]

And yet according to Scripture were not saved by faith alone. We're saved by obedience, holiness, keeping the commandments, loving God, loving each other, forgiving each other, doing good, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, no longer being a slave to sin. These are works of grace, and the avenue to that grace, to that life of God in the Spirit, is faith. We're saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9)-but not by the mere act of faith alone. And not because faith guarantees that we'll do those things. Faith is the vehicle to the love that puts God first and acts for the good of the other as it's the vehicle to God, Himself, the Source of that love. So, love does those things and that love is both a supernatural gift and a human choice, to embrace and express that gift. We're saved unto righteousness, holiness, without which we won't see God; otherwise we'll remain in our sins, condemned. Or we can taste of the heavenly gift and fall back away (Heb 6:6), come to the knowledge of Christ and then become entangled in the world again. (2 Pet 20). `

Paul said this,
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

Augustine said this,
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

Paul, again,
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

We must do our part; we must pick up our cross and follow daily. Then He judges how we've done with the gifts given. We cannot possibly be saved apart from God, but we can still refuse to be saved at the end of the day. It has do do with how we've lived, not just what we say we've believed.

For Paul salvation doctrine, refer to verses like Romans 4:5

 

[fhansen]

I was going along with you when it comes to foundational soteriology taught by the apostolic and early church fathers. But Juan Alvarez is a 1000 years away from them.

Brother Juan simply summarized and clarified the continuous teaching of the church in a beautifully concise manner. It is truth, and, again, many if not most of the early faithers would recognize that truth IMO. If you were to say something of great worth, perhaps blossoming out of a deeply prayerful life while seeking and serving and drawing near to God, and some of us recognized and valued it for what is was, I'd hope we could quote it, regardless of whether it came at the beginning or some 2000+ years later now. Either way love was a hot topic for the early fathers as it was for St John the Evangelist, and it seems to have less play in the current Christian world.

 

[Ceallaigh]

And yet according to Scripture were not saved by faith alone. We're saved by obedience, holiness, keeping the commandments, loving God, loving each other, forgiving each other, doing good, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, no longer being a slave to sin. These are works of grace, and the avenue to that grace, to that life of God in the Spirit, is faith. We're saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9)-but not by the mere act of faith alone. And not because faith guarantees that we'll do those things. Faith is the vehicle to the love that puts God first and acts for the good of the other as it's the vehicle to God, Himself, the Source of that love. So, love does those things and that love is both a supernatural gift and a human choice, to embrace and express that gift. We're saved unto righteousness, holiness, without which we won't see God; otherwise we'll remain in our sins, condemned. Or we can taste of the heavenly gift and fall back away (Heb 6:6), come to the knowledge of Christ and then become entangled in the world again. (2 Pet 20). `

Paul said this,
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

Augustine said this,
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

Paul, again,
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

We must do our part; we must pick up our cross and follow daily. Then He judges how we've done with the gifts given. We cannot possibly be saved apart from God, but we can still refuse to be saved at the end of the day. It has do do with how we've lived, not just what we say we've believed.

In a nutshell what it seems you're saying is our salvation is dependent upon how well we perform on our own personal will power and ability.

However that seems to contradict your saying "Christ is the center of it all. Without Him we don't even know God, a God truly worth knowing, believing in, hoping in, and loving".

So that leaves us in a six of one and a half dozen of the other situation.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Brother Juan simply summarized and clarified the continuous teaching of the church in a beautifully concise manner. It is truth, and, again, many if not most of the early faithers would recognize that truth IMO.

So why not quote one of them instead?

If you were to say something of great worth, perhaps blossoming out of a deeply prayerful life while seeking and serving and drawing near to God, and some of us recognized and valued it for what is was, I'd hope we could quote it, regardless of whether it came at the beginning or some 2000+ years later now. Either way love was a hot topic for the early fathers as it was for St John the Evangelist, and it seems to have less play in the current Christian world.

There are eight kinds of love.

 

[fhansen]

For Paul salvation doctrine, refer to verses like Romans 4:5

And, again, don't forget Rom 2:7. Rom 6:22, and Rom 8:12-14. When you can reconcile those with 4:5, you'll understand the gospel better.

 

[fhansen]

So why not quote one of them instead?

Why? Why not quote truth wherever we find it, wherever we see it articulated well?

There are eight kinds of love.

Well, they were taking about agape, which should be obvious. We're to love as God does.

 

[fhansen]

In a nutshell what it seems you're saying is our salvation is dependent upon how well we perform on our own personal will power and ability.

However that seems to contradict your saying "Christ is the center of it all. Without Him we don't even know God, a God truly worth knowing, believing in, hoping in, and loving".

So that leaves us in a six of one and a half dozen of the other situation.

What I'm saying is that man is obligated to love. That's the very definition of justice/righteousness for man. And it's a good obligation, one that excludes sin from the world and is ultimately the source of full true uncompromised happiness for man, as well. God wants the best for us-always has. And the only way to that love is Christ, as I've maintained, because Christ is the only way to God. Salvation is more than simply being saved from hell. It's man attaining to his purpose, his telos, becoming who he was created to be. I think it was Gregory of Nyssa who said that we're not even fully human yet in this life; just a seedling, so to speak.

 

[Guojing]

And, again, don't forget Rom 2:7. Rom 6:22, and Rom 8:12-14. When you can reconcile those with 4:5, you'll understand the gospel better.

The point boils down to the of the phrase "But now", one that is frequently used by Paul

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The point is still, learn to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)

 

[IamHope]

Of course water baptism is required to enter the kingdom of God, under the gospel of the kingdom.

Not