We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[Giver]

False teachings/bad theology do hurt.

It sure does just count all the dead, wounded, and starving people in Iraq.

 

[mont974x4]

You have not balanced your opinion and application of those few verses with the other verses and cases that we have presnted you in this thread.

Was David wrong? Saul? Gideon? Joshua? Did God command people to sin when He commanded war? Where are Christians commanded to not join the military or police force or to avoid jobs where they may be required to kill in the line of duty?

 

[lighthousekid]

It sure does just count all the dead, wounded, and starving people in Iraq.

Bless your heart. However you must understand I have no way to verify that Jesus told you something. May God bless you.

Goodbye

 

[mont974x4]

It sure does just count all the dead, wounded, and starving people in Iraq.

Now I understand where you're coming from.

 

[mont974x4]

nasb
Rev 17:14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."


Looks to me like we will be with Him in this battle.

 

[mont974x4]

nasb
Pro 24:6 For by wise guidance you will wage war, And in abundance of counselors there is victory.


Why would we need wise guidance and promised victory concerning war if we aren't supposed to be involved in war?

 

[mont974x4]

nasb
Pro 3:27 Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, When it is in your power to do it.


Providing the good for others is costly....and quite often that cost is the blood of brave men and women willing to fight for your right to say and think whatever thing you wish and you have the gall to thank them by bashing their mission? To question their faith?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Jesus personally told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason.

That does not follow from the verses you quote.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

One my legitimately use coercive force to prevent a person from doing something evil out of love. Indeed, it is a loving thing to prevent a person from doing evil, even if by force.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Jesus opposed the political enforcement of the Mosaic law as a legal system. In this discourse, Jesus opposed the establishment of Jewish law as the law of the land.

But he says nothing about a secular government enforcing the standards of justice for purely rational reasons.

When God tells us something it is very dangerous to ignore what he says. Right?

Very true, but it is equally dangerous to put words in our Lord's mouth.

 

[Blake4000]

But exceptions to the rule. If someone intends to kill you, self defense is permitable under the LAW.

"In this discourse, Jesus opposed the establishment of Jewish law as the law of the land." Incorrect.

"Very true, but it is equally dangerous to put words in our Lord's mouth." - take your own advice please.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

But exceptions to the rule. If someone intends to kill you, self defense is permitable under the LAW

When did I say anything about self defense? You've missed my point entirely.

"In this discourse, Jesus opposed the establishment of Jewish law as the law of the land." Incorrect.

Wow, what a nuanced response.

If you know anything about first century Judaism, you know that social banditry and zealot revolutions were common features of life. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is preaching against the revolution way to national vindication and instead is pointing to his own, peaceful way of restoring the people of God. He is pleading with his fellow Jews not to insight rebellion against Rome, and not to think of the reestablishment of God's people and the fulfillment of Israel as something that comes about through the establishment of a Jewish kingdom ruled by the Siniatic law.

Opposition to the political establishment of Torah law is a central theme of this discourse, and the immediate context of this passage.

"Very true, but it is equally dangerous to put words in our Lord's mouth." - take your own advice please.

Not only ad hominem, but based on your groundess accusation of error.

 

[Tkjjc]

The verse which so many use to advocate violence, really should not be used in this context. The only reason Jesus had them buy swords, was to full a prophesy, and issue a dictate.

Luke 22:36
And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

But it doesn't end there, as we shall see:

Luke 22:37
"For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

This was the prophesy:

Isaiah 53:12

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
​

but it isn't over yet...

Matt 26:52
Then Jesus *said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

Which is Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

Does this paint a picture of a savior who would advocate killing?

 

[Calminian]

Well you have accepted the watered down version of those two verses. I wonder if you can find enough water to water down the following verse?
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Sure, I'll address that. Jesus specifically used examples of insult rather than violence. He never says, if a man breaks your kneecap, offer him the other. In the case of lawsuits, He never said that if a man sues to take your home, offer him also your horse. Rather he makes the case that you are not to sweat the small stuff. If someone spits on you, you are not to spit back. Endure such insults. If they want to take your $20 coat, let em have it and give them your scarf also. Wicked men will do stuff like this and this will totally disarm them. But if a man wants to kill you or your child, this is a totally different subject. In that case, you are fully justified in violent defense with the sword you were commanded to buy. If you let your child die, you are unloving. In fact you've committed one of the most unloving acts of all, allowing friends or even enemies die when all you had to do was kill to protect them. In fact you are a co-murderer.

I have posted this already in this thread, but you must not have read it so here it is again. You use that passage to discredit all that Jesus and Paul said about killing. Why do you think Jesus said that’s enough when he was told they had two swords? Would two swords be enough to defend all the disciples? I don’t believe there are any serious theologians who would ever agree with your interpretation.

Well, Paul actually totally endorsed the state's right to use violence in Romans 13. Paul defended capital punishment. And Jesus wanted Peter to refrain, first because there's no way he could overcome and entire mob, and second because it would interfere with God's plan for Jesus to die for the sins of the world.

You need to start obeying God, Giver. If the opportunity avails, you need to do the loving thing and protect your friends, enemies and everyone in between. You need to start thinking more lovingly. Right now, frankly, you sound very hateful.

 

[VCViking]

When God tells us something it is very dangerous to ignore what he says. Right?

Yes. But what if it is not God that is doing the speaking? Demons come as angels of light.

 

[VCViking]

You should see that a Christian isn’t part of the world, and should never be in the world’s army or police force.

I guess this answers my question.

 

[Calminian]

Which is Genesis 9:6
[/COLOR] "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

Does this paint a picture of a savior who would advocate killing?

pacifists never cease to amaze me

 

[Calminian]

I've always wondered what pacifists think those swords Jesus commanded the disciples to buy were for. Splitting coconuts?

And one person mentioned that we don't have to worry about that command because Jesus was merely fulfilling prophecy. IOW, Jesus can give a false command so long as he fulfills prophecy?

Come on guys. Pacifism is both unbiblical and unloving. It's foundation is emotion, not scripture, not logic. And it's actually very dangerous to yourselves and the people around you. Please rethink.

 

[Giver]

Yes. But what if it is not God that is doing the speaking? Demons come as angels of light.

Yes that is true, but a person has to be really a long way from the Holy Spirit if they are being fooled by Satan’s voice.

I wasn’t talking about us hearing Jesus. I was referring to the Written Word of God.

 

[Giver]

Sure, I'll address that. Jesus specifically used examples of insult rather than violence. He never says, if a man breaks your kneecap, offer him the other. In the case of lawsuits, He never said that if a man sues to take your home, offer him also your horse. Rather he makes the case that you are not to sweat the small stuff. If someone spits on you, you are not to spit back. Endure such insults. If they want to take your $20 coat, let em have it and give them your scarf also. Wicked men will do stuff like this and this will totally disarm them. But if a man wants to kill you or your child, this is a totally different subject. In that case, you are fully justified in violent defense with the sword you were commanded to buy. If you let your child die, you are unloving. In fact you've committed one of the most unloving acts of all, allowing friends or even enemies die when all you had to do was kill to protect them. In fact you are a co-murderer.
Jesus must be a co-murderer then. He has all the power to stop evil men, but he lets it happen. I believe he said something to the effect that he lets the weed grow along with the good seed.

I have to ask you a question: isn’t someone who would be about to murder your daughter evil?




Well, Paul actually totally endorsed the state's right to use violence in Romans 13. Paul defended capital punishment. And Jesus wanted Peter to refrain, first because there's no way he could overcome and entire mob, and second because it would interfere with God's plan for Jesus to die for the sins of the world.
I have to ask you a question: isn’t someone who would be about to murder your daughter evil? Also can you back up with scripture that you have the right to kill that evil man?

I have explained this before in other post in this thread, but I will try again. The government is of the world. The world needs law, because it doesn’t have God. Paul explains that people who know God don’t need laws. Jesus told us that Christians are not of the world. They live in the world but are not of it. Paul and Peter tell us that we are to obey our government. That is unless the government tells us to do something that God told us not to do.

(Acts 4:19-20) “You must judge whether in God’s eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard.”



You need to start obeying God, Giver. If the opportunity avails, you need to do the loving thing and protect your friends, enemies and everyone in between. You need to start thinking more lovingly. Right now, frankly, you sound very hateful.

I am sorry, but what you are picking up from me is tough love. I pray for wisdom and love all the time, and do my very best to be loving person.

 

[Giver]

I've always wondered what pacifists think those swords Jesus commanded the disciples to buy were for. Splitting coconuts?
(Matthew 26:52) “Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”

(Luke 22:38) “Lord, they said ‘there are two swords here now,’ He said to them, ‘that is enough!

Here is what some bible scholars have said about that passage of scripture: “The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly”. Also, “The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.” These scholars wrote the Jerusalem Bible. That’s a Catholic Bible and Catholics believe much the way you do about the subject of self-defense.

Another question you should ask yourself is: would Jesus have said that two swords were enough if they were to use swords to defend all the disciples that were there?

And one person mentioned that we don't have to worry about that command because Jesus was merely fulfilling prophecy. IOW, Jesus can give a false command so long as he fulfills prophecy?


Come on guys. Pacifism is both unbiblical and unloving. It's foundation is emotion, not scripture, not logic. And it's actually very dangerous to yourselves and the people around you. Please rethink.

If you can show us where pacifism is not scriptural. New Testament please.

 

[Giver]

pacifists never cease to amaze me

I can sure understand your amazement. Forty-five years ago, after just serving five years in the US Armed Forces, a person was amazed when I told him that it was a person’s duty to defend his country. He could not understand how a Christian would kill another human. I told him it was our duty. Walking away thinking he was sure a wimp. I held that belief for another fifteen or so years. I am a hard head, always think I’m right, and so didn’t really listen to the Holy Spirit when he was telling me I was wrong. I guess because I am such a hard head Jesus had to personally come tome and tell me I was wrong.