We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[mont974x4]

Jesus said those who draw the sword die by the sword, he did not say those who misuse the sword or violence

I guess you haven’t read many of my post on this thread so I explain again about the two swords. (Matthew 26:52) “Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”

(Luke 22:38) “Lord, they said ‘there are two swords here now,’ He said to them, ‘that is enough!

Here is what some bible scholars have said about that passage of scripture: “The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly”. Also, “The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.” These scholars wrote the Jerusalem Bible. That’s a Catholic Bible and Catholics believe much the way you do about the subject of self-defense.

Be careful how you apply the verse about taking up the sword. There is nothing wrong with dying by the sword. Nor is there anything wrong with physical death. It is a fact of life ordained by God that all should die physically because of sin entering the world. Looking at all the passages about swords and godly men waging war, you're argument fails.

 

[Calminian]

It's incredible to think that some people believe that God ordains only reprobate government to protect its citizens by the sword. It's a necessary job, but one of the requirements is that those who hold the positions must be unbelievers.

The implications of pacifistic interpretations are truly incredible.

But you're wasting your time in this discussion. You can't reason with someone who believes that God spoke to them personally to tell them what the text really means. They're already tipping you off from the get-go that they have no intention of dealing with the text with any kind of integrity. It has to be saying what they want it to say, and no amount of context or reasoning will convince them otherwise. This guy will just keep giving you a condescending pat on the head and telling you that you just need to be mature like he is, and then you'll understand.

I have no illusions about this. My points are for the honest seeker that might be looking at this thread who might be confused about this issue. I also hope to pass along some nuggets to those that wish to argue on the right side of this, just as they have done for me.

 

[A. believer]

The implications of pacifistic interpretations are truly incredible.



I have no illusions about this. My points are for the honest seeker that might be looking at this thread who might be confused about this issue. I also hope to pass along some nuggets to those that wish to argue on the right side of this, just as they have done for me.

Good point. I often do the same thing. In this case, I wonder if the most convincing case against pacifism for those who are on the fence, though, might just come from reading Giver's arguments. When a person has to resort to, "I know this is true because God told it to me personally," anyone with an ounce of wisdom and discernment is going to run in the other direction.

 

[Calminian]

Good point. I often do the same thing. In this case, I wonder if the most convincing case against pacifism for those who are on the fence, though, might just come from reading Giver's arguments. When a person has to resort to, "I know this is true because God told it to me personally," anyone with an ounce of wisdom and discernment is going to run in the other direction.

I agree and I think this came as a result of him being backed into a corner with the text. Pacifists generally like to quote Matt. 5 and run. When you press them, and take them back to closely examine that text and others, that's when the real reasons come out. Then, I'm with you, it's best to just let them talk!

 

[Giver]

Be careful how you apply the verse about taking up the sword. There is nothing wrong with dying by the sword. Nor is there anything wrong with physical death. It is a fact of life ordained by God that all should die physically because of sin entering the world. Looking at all the passages about swords and godly men waging war, you're argument fails.

So if you think there isn’t anything wrong with physical death why are you so concerned with using force to save someone’s physical life?

 

[tapero]

So if you think there isn’t anything wrong with physical death why are you so concerned with using force to save someone’s physical life?

oh wow, i've missed so much of this thread..



last i posted to you, sorry i didn't check back, but had asked, your wife is not home..

your 5 year old grandchild is.

you come upon a stranger raping that child.

what do you do?

sorry, i posted this long ago and didn't come back.

take care,
tapero

 

[Giver]

oh wow, i've missed so much of this thread..



last i posted to you, sorry i didn't check back, but had asked, your wife is not home..

your 5 year old grandchild is.

you come upon a stranger raping that child.

what do you do?

sorry, i posted this long ago and didn't come back.

take care,
tapero

First Jesus told me to pray and keep my eyes on him, and he would take care of me. I pray every day that Jesus will put his angels around my family, to guard, keep and protect us all day long. It has been thirty some years sense Jesus gave me that promise and he has keep his promise. What ifs and hypothetical situations are imposable to answer. I pray to always to do as the Holy Spirit guides me to do. I don’t know what I would do in any future circumstance. I don’t have the grace to do anymore then what I am faced with right now. All I know is that I don’t prepare to ever do any violence to anyone. You should understand Jesus told me not to hurt anyone for any reason. I will do everything in my power to obey him. I also expect he will always give me the grace to be able to obey him.

 

[Giver]

Oy! Giver I did. You're making no sense. I'm looking for an argument to respond to.

The Word of God doesn’t seem to make any sense to you, so it is no wonder that I can’t make you understand.

 

[Giver]

Jesus was speaking of criminal activity with the sword. Peter was breaking the law in what he had done. He should have been killed on the spot for what he had done! If you are shooting at a policeman during an arrest, he has every right to shoot you down.

There is a right way to arm yourself. And, there is a wrong way.

Luke 11:21 (New International Version)​

"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe."​

​

Was Jesus using a sinful example to illustrate his point? No, he spoke of a legitimate practice in self defence.

Now where did you get the idea that is what Jesus meant? Did you ask him?

 

[mont974x4]

So if you think there isn’t anything wrong with physical death why are you so concerned with using force to save someone’s physical life?

I don't think you understand my view on the issue, perhaps you have confused me with someone else. I have no issue using force to save lives.

 

[GenemZ]

Now where did you get the idea that is what Jesus meant? Did you ask him?

I said....

Luke 11:21 (New International Version)​

"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe."​

Was Jesus using a sinful example to illustrate his point? No, he spoke of a legitimate practice in self defense.


What did he mean, then? What else could he have meant?

Funny... if words were actions? It appears you would want to harm others here with your attitude towards them. And, Jesus said, if we think it? We have done it. Interesting....


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[LonesomeTexan]

WOW... The cult of pacifism on full display here. Let's just completely throw out the old testament now and lay down when evil comes to harm us. I don't love myself or my family enough to defend them. God really wasn't pleased with David for his forceful actions against evil men. Jesus told me so the other day. WWII was not a worthy cause. We shouldn't intervene when we see injustice in the world. We shouldn't make a stand against the wicked.

 

[A. believer]

First Jesus told me to pray and keep my eyes on him, and he would take care of me. I pray every day that Jesus will put his angels around my family, to guard, keep and protect us all day long. It has been thirty some years sense Jesus gave me that promise and he has keep his promise. What ifs and hypothetical situations are imposable to answer. I pray to always to do as the Holy Spirit guides me to do. I don’t know what I would do in any future circumstance. I don’t have the grace to do anymore then what I am faced with right now. All I know is that I don’t prepare to ever do any violence to anyone. You should understand Jesus told me not to hurt anyone for any reason. I will do everything in my power to obey him. I also expect he will always give me the grace to be able to obey him.

It's not even about what you would have the grace to do. I pray that I would have the grace to, say, not deny Christ under torture, for example, even though it's impossible for me to say, as a hypothetical whether I would or not. But the issue is what you consider praiseworthy behavior.

The issue is this. If I were in a situation where I could either stop a madman on a shooting rampage by shooting him or let him continue on his killing spree, and 40 or 50 people were killed because I believed as you do and chose to do nothing, you would consider my choice praiseworthy. That's deplorable ethics and it has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[LonesomeTexan]

It's not even about what you would have the grace to do. I pray that I would have the grace to, say, not deny Christ under torture, for example, even though it's impossible for me to say, as a hypothetical whether I would or not. But the issue is what you consider praiseworthy behavior.

The issue is this. If I were in a situation where I could either stop a madman on a shooting rampage by shooting him or let him continue on his killing spree, and 40 or 50 people were killed because I believed as you do and chose to do nothing, you would consider my choice praiseworthy. That's deplorable ethics and it has nothing to do with Christianity.

Good point. And what if some of those people that were to die never heard the gospel? I think it would be awful unloving to watch them die without telling them about the promise of everlasting life.

 

[GenemZ]

1 Timothy 5:8 (New International Version)
"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."​

If that's enough to receive such condemnation from God? How much more so? If one refuses to protect?!


Enuf said...

 

[Giver]

It's not even about what you would have the grace to do. I pray that I would have the grace to, say, not deny Christ under torture, for example, even though it's impossible for me to say, as a hypothetical whether I would or not. But the issue is what you consider praiseworthy behavior.

The issue is this. If I were in a situation where I could either stop a madman on a shooting rampage by shooting him or let him continue on his killing spree, and 40 or 50 people were killed because I believed as you do and chose to do nothing, you would consider my choice praiseworthy. That's deplorable ethics and it has nothing to do with Christianity.

Someone who is living the Word of God would never be in a position to shoot a mad man on a killing spree. A person living the word of God would normally not carry a weapon. I know they might be hunting animals, but Jesus would not, unless he gave the person much, much grace, place one of his in a position like that. It is the world’s job to take care of situations like what you described. Remember a Christian is not of the world. God would never place one of his in a situation that would be beyond their ability to resist. Christians are to obey God no matter what. Jesus will always give them the grace to live his Word.

 

[mont974x4]

Someone who is living the Word of God would never be in a position to shoot a mad man on a killing spree. A person living the word of God would normally not carry a weapon. I know they might be hunting animals, but Jesus would not, unless he gave the person much, much grace, place one of his in a position like that. It is the world’s job to take care of situations like what you described. Remember a Christian is not of the world. God would never place one of his in a situation that would be beyond their ability to resist. Christians are to obey God no matter what. Jesus will always give them the grace to live his Word.

Are you kidding me?! How cna honestly spout such pure rubbish in light of the shootings yesterday?! You twisting of Scripture and cowardly doctrine that you have built is saddening.

 

[ContentInHim]

Someone who is living the Word of God would never be in a position to shoot a mad man on a killing spree. A person living the word of God would normally not carry a weapon. I know they might be hunting animals, but Jesus would not, unless he gave the person much, much grace, place one of his in a position like that. It is the world’s job to take care of situations like what you described. Remember a Christian is not of the world. God would never place one of his in a situation that would be beyond their ability to resist. Christians are to obey God no matter what. Jesus will always give them the grace to live his Word.

What do you do with Luke 22:36?

 

[ContentInHim]

Are you kidding me?! How cna honestly spout such pure rubbish in light of the shootings yesterday?! You twisting of Scripture and cowardly doctrine that you have built is saddening.

Let alone Virginia Tech or the recent Mall shootings?

 

[Giver]

What do you do with Luke 22:36?

Man! I have answered two or three times in this thread. Just so you can understand I’ll try to explain again. (Luke 22:38) “Lord, they said ‘there are two swords here now,’ He said to them, ‘that is enough!

Here is what some bible scholars have said about that passage of scripture: “The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly”. Also, “The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.” These scholars wrote the Jerusalem Bible. That’s a Catholic Bible and Catholics believe much the way you do about the subject of self-defense.

Another question you should ask yourself is: would Jesus have said that two swords were enough if they were to use swords to defend all the disciples that were there?