We are not saved by works?

[Dave L]

You are still not understanding The Gospel. You have taken your definition of works too far. The only Scripture writer that you can cite to support your arguments is Paul. AND, Paul says as much that contrasts what you are claiming as he says that supports what you are claiming. I understand you try to repackage those things as a battle of natures. But, again that is not what Paul is talking about.

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him." (Romans 6:8) Based on what Paul said, not what you have been told or determined yourself, if you didn't die with Christ, can you expect to live with Him?

"Know you not, that to whom you yield your servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16)

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many who are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God." (Rom 8:12-14)

It isn't about following the Law of Moses. It is about walking in a relationship with God and if you are really walking in a relationship with God, you won't obey the flesh. Paul is very consistent. He says virtually the same thing in Galatians.

What is the gospel according to your view?

 

[Barney2.0]

I'm not familiar with your interpretation. Good works come from a new nature in the new birth. Just as bad works come from a depraved nature without trying.

Salvation is a life working process which starts as Baptism and continues throughout our lives. Bad works come from lack of salvation and sin.

 

[Dave L]

Salvation is a life working process which starts as Baptism and continues throughout our lives. Bad works come from lack of salvation and sin.

Salvation happens in the new birth, followed by faith in Christ and good works of appreciation and love for him.

 

[thecolorsblend]

“He who believes” in Christ equates to “he who eats this bread” because the result is the same, eternal life. The parallel is also found between verses 40 and 54

You're making stuff up.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

What is the gospel according to your view?

In summary, the Good News is this:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[FatalHeart]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

There are some very intelligent posts in that I need to say nothing, but to add to the discussion, Romans 2 and Revelations, as well as a few other scriptures scattered throughout the New and Old Testament paint a picture that every person will be judged according to what they have done -that Jesus' sacrifice was against condemnation and the second death and not for eliminating all punishment for what we've done. This means that a person who does evil will be rewarded evil for what they've done and that if you intend to have a pleasant time on that dark day (that day will be darkness, not light) when God comes back that you'll have to have actually been a good person (good luck). So there's an even stronger reason to do what is right, and it is seen as a godly reason, than just "he died for me and now I love him." There are also a few other godly reasons for doing good that don't involve gratitude, but that doesn't break the scripture that says, "We love because He first loved us." So yeah, like Paul paints, there is a competitive aspect here, if one can understand competing without selfish ambition, because in this race, it's not just what you accomplish that you're rewarded for, but also the success others make; if one wins, all win.

 

[Dave L]

In summary, the Good News is this:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

This is good if we let it lay. But many think we must decide or choose to believe thereby turning grace into law. The truth is, if you decide to believe it is because you already believe (are saved) or you wouldn't decide to believe. But many think their choosing saved them and they trust in themselves instead of Christ for salvation.

 

[Dave L]

Salvation is a life working process which starts as Baptism and continues throughout our lives. Bad works come from lack of salvation and sin.

Is a cat a cat because it acts like one? Or does it act like a cat because it is one? You think acting like a Christian makes a person a Christian.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes it does. Thank you.




Hello, yes it was a serious question and I got satisfactory answers from it. Thanks all for the answers.



Hmm you're right. He should have said works of the Law in Romans 4:5 too because many pastors and Christians are interpreting it as works.

No. Besides Ephesians, in other books like Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians we see the context of the word “Law” or the word “works” is in context to the Law of Moses. In other words show me a verse in Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians that talks about the Law or works, and I will show you the context that it is talking about the Old Law.

In other words, the Bible is not written in the way that we prefer. But if we are truly seeking the truth and not a belief that is more comforting to what we want to hear, we will find the truth and the truth will set us free.

 

[Emli]

Emli, I agree with much of the false outcomes you have spoken of; and what you wrote in total is definitely making me think. But, when you say things like "A lot of people have been baptized but don't have saving faith, because of false doctrines".... I agree with the evidence you cited, but I struggle with the reason you give in the cause and effect argument.

When people don't "surrender their lives," does it have anything to do with the false doctrine of the particular church or even their own false doctrines about God? I submit that God can break the lies off those who are willing to have the lies broken off them, regardless of the church or individual doctrine they have. For example:

If false doctrine were the eliminator, God could have never woken me up, because I didn't even believe He still did the "born-again" thing and wouldn't have been caught dead in a church that talked about being born again when He did it to me anyway.

A guy named Randy Clark, a trained southern Baptist pastor and historian, believed his Baptist indoctrination that the gifts of the Spirit were not for today and then God started doing those things through Randy Clark anyway. Then, God used that man to break the lie off me that "all healing evangelists were frauds".

Wouldn't it really be that they don't surrender, because they don't really trust Him? And, they don't really trust Him, because they don't really believe? Then, the obvious "backward planning" question is: why do some, and why don't others, really believe enough to surrender?

Oh, absolutely. I agree with what you wrote. But are we back at the conversation now of whether we choose God or He chooses us, or both?

I don't believe that false doctrine is ever an "eliminator", in the sense that God cannot eventually save them, but it is truth that sets us free. If God has chosen the person, he or she is going to be led to saving faith and living for Christ eventually even if he or she start off in a bad church with false doctrines. I was also misled by false doctrines and false gospels for some time, and just like for you, the Lord led me back to Him and opened my eyes to truth. I believe that God can open our eyes partially and then we get a little lost on the way for one reason or another, then He leads us back to Him, and that happens to me constantly, and probably to most people. The devil is always trying to deceive us, but truth sets us free.

What my point was though was that those who are believing in false gospels are doing so because they have been taught false doctrines, and there are many, many churches who teach it, as Jesus and Paul prophesied to us would happen. Whether they will eventually be saved or fall away or end up like the "Lord, Lord"-people in Matthew 7:22, only God knows. And we would have to look at each person individually to understand why they aren't surrendering. But the reason to why they are in those churches NOW must still be because they have been deceived by false doctrines. But did they believe in the false gospel because the teacher deceived them or because they chose a teacher to suit their desires? Did they believe the false gospel because God is opening their eyes and they are partly lost on their way to God, or because they simply wanted whatever the church and the false doctrines are offering instead of truth?

In the end, all faith comes from God, all wisdom and knowledge about Him comes from Him and our ability to surrender comes from Him. It is always His work in us that saves us. What do you think?

 

[lismore]

Okay so this has always confused me.

Hello. I believe we are saved by grace but that grace will generate a response in a person's life- works. These works do not save, but a saved person produces them. God Bless

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

You're making stuff up.

Why would you say that:

Didn't the same Jesus who said: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16) AND

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40)

ALSO SAY: "Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day....He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. (John 6:54, 56-58)

Why is it so unbelievable that belief and "eating the Word" are tied together?

Jesus is not talking about "literally" eating His flesh and drinking His blood here (cannibalism), but the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ, as He makes abundantly clear by repeating the same truths. Compare for example the following two verses:

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 6:58 - This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. "He who eats this bread will live forever."

“He who believes” in Christ equates to “he who eats this bread” because the result is the same, eternal life. The parallel is also found between verses 40 and 54:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (v54).

Jesus is the Word of God. Eating His flesh could very well mean "hearing/chewing on the Word of God" rather than just belief (which could be based on the Truth or lies). I suggest this based on:

John 6:63: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Rom 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17)

Heb 4:12: "The Word of God is living and active...."

Isa 55:11: "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

 

[thecolorsblend]

Why would you say that:

You completed redefined "baptism" as a word while creating connections between scriptural passages which are as nonsensical as they are artificial. That's not exegesis, bro, that's just nonsense.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

After we are saved by faith, by believing, we do good works, for Christ and others, and those good works are evidence that we believe

 

[Danthemailman]

You're making stuff up.

Making stuff up? No.

It’s called property harmonizing scripture with scripture.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Making stuff up? No.

It’s called property harmonizing scripture with scripture.

Sure thing, bro.

 

[Barney2.0]

Is a cat a cat because it acts like one? Or does it act like a cat because it is one? You think acting like a Christian makes a person a Christian.

Acting like a Christian doesn’t make a person a Christian then again, claiming belief in Jesus and not acting like a Christian doesn’t make you one.

 

[Dave L]

Acting like a Christian doesn’t make a person a Christian then again, claiming belief in Jesus and not acting like a Christian doesn’t make you one.

The problem is: Christians believe in Jesus. They do good things. They shun sin etc.. So when people make salvation conditional, based on doing the things Christians do, they essentially turn people into hypocrites (actors) ensuring them if they do all the right things, whatever it is Christians do, God will save them.

 

[Barney2.0]

The problem is: Christians believe in Jesus. They do good things. They shun sin etc.. So when people make salvation conditional, based on doing the things Christians do, they essentially turn people into hypocrites (actors) ensuring them if they do all the right things, whatever it is Christians do, God will save them.

Salvation isn’t solely based on faith nor is it solely based on good works, it’s a combination of both in a life working process.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Oh, absolutely. I agree with what you wrote. But are we back at the conversation now of whether we choose God or He chooses us, or both?

I don't believe that false doctrine is ever an "eliminator", in the sense that God cannot eventually save them, but it is truth that sets us free. If God has chosen the person, he or she is going to be led to saving faith and living for Christ eventually even if he or she start off in a bad church with false doctrines. I was also misled by false doctrines and false gospels for some time, and just like for you, the Lord led me back to Him and opened my eyes to truth. I believe that God can open our eyes partially and then we get a little lost on the way for one reason or another, then He leads us back to Him, and that happens to me constantly, and probably to most people. The devil is always trying to deceive us, but truth sets us free.

What my point was though was that those who are believing in false gospels are doing so because they have been taught false doctrines, and there are many, many churches who teach it, as Jesus and Paul prophesied to us would happen. Whether they will eventually be saved or fall away or end up like the "Lord, Lord"-people in Matthew 7:22, only God knows. And we would have to look at each person individually to understand why they aren't surrendering. But the reason to why they are in those churches NOW must still be because they have been deceived by false doctrines. But did they believe in the false gospel because the teacher deceived them or because they chose a teacher to suit their desires? Did they believe the false gospel because God is opening their eyes and they are partly lost on their way to God, or because they simply wanted whatever the church and the false doctrines are offering instead of truth?

In the end, all faith comes from God, all wisdom and knowledge about Him comes from Him and our ability to surrender comes from Him. It is always His work in us that saves us. What do you think?

Regarding your opening question: Both. It is because God chose that we get to choose. If God didn't choose to send His only begotten Son to pay the price, our choice would be wholly impotent. But, by God's Sovereign choice and declaration, our choice becomes absolutely necessary--not because of who we are or what we did, but because of who He is, what He did, and what He established.

Middle: Okay, I see you have four subsets (those who don't come, those eventually saved, those who eventually fall away, and those who at judgment are surprised). Is that a faithful representation of what you believe? I think some others we have conversed with who might say there are only two: chosen (and therefore saved) and unchosen (and therefore can't be saved).

Could it be that more serious false doctrines are what the "god of this world blinds" with (2 Cor 4:4)--whether it is worldly false doctrines or religious false doctrines? God goes so far to suggest that He turns some over to a strong delusion, because they didn't receive the love of the truth (2 Thes 2:10-12) or eventually a reprobate mind (2nd half of Romans 1). Maybe that is why we are told "Be not conformed to this world; but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." (Romans 12:2) Jesus said "Sanctify them through Your Truth. Your Word is Truth." in His John 17 prayer (John 17:17). Jesus also talked about "Eating my flesh" as a requirement to be saved. And, that "My Words are spirit and they are life." (John 6, especially 54,63)

But, I don't know anyone, apart from Jesus Christ, who was born again with a perfect knowledge of Truth across all subjects. Even Paul admitted that (1 Cor 13:12). I do know some who think they are the incarnate knowledge of God, but I am not convinced. In fact, I'm not convinced that anyone can get it completely right on this side of eternity AND that makes me question if "perfect doctrine" is required to be saved. Does that make sense?

In fact, seeing some of the political moves that which calls itself the church has made, I'm not even sure if those whom some generations considered heretics really were in God's sight. I question if a decision or body claiming it is of God is really of Him, when human politics dirty it. I don't question whether God will save some from within those contaminated entities though. Isn't that what Jesus kind of says in Revelation 2 & 3?

Regarding your closing statement: It is always God's work that saves us; but it is our cooperation, by His ordination, that allows Him to do that. If God gives all faith, is it God who enables me to believe that when I work, I will get paid OR that the sun will rise tomorrow OR that when I get in a car it will work the way it is supposed to, OR that when I enter an intersection, I have faith that cross-traffic won't, that my car will go when I press on the gas or stop when I press the gas or change directions when I steer?