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We are not saved by works?

Johnny4ChristJesus

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Part of the "call of the gospel" (that involves God having chosen us for salvation) is:

(a) A belief in the truth (Jesus) and,
(b) The Sanctification of the Spirit.

13 “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)."​

For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world (See Titus 2:11-12).

The grace of God does not teach that we have a license to sin or to treat sin as if it is no big deal. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live righteously. So if we are say,

"Hey, I generally live upright, but nobody is perfect and we all sin and I am saved by grace, grace, grace..."​

Well.... if that is what one is saying, then I am got news for this person:

The grace of God teaches us that we can live righteously in this present world. If one is admitting that we all sin and we are not perfect, then they technically are not living righteously in this present world according to Titus 2:12. For if a person admits they sin or they are a sinner, they are not living righteously but they are living unrighteously. Scripture says all unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17).

Jason, thanks! Again, as always, I agree with the whole of the Scriptures.

I am curious about one thing: you consistently refer to the "grace of God" teaching us. Why do you not refer to the Holy Spirit and instead refer to the inanimate "grace of God" as if it is a separate entity in and of itself? Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ, but grace is not a person, it is an attribute of God. The Holy Spirit leads us into all Truth. We are to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh and when we do so, we will live righteously post-reception of the Holy Spirit. However, apart from the Blood and Testimony of Jesus Christ and the subsequent gift of the Holy Spirit, we could never ever earn our salvation.

I also agree with you on what you said about claims, once born again, that you are a sinner and can't help yourself. God gave us the Holy Spirit for multiple reasons. At the same time, John also shared other things which included praying for someone who was committing a forgiveable sin.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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At one time in my life, I used to be afraid to think we were saved by works (in addition to God's saving grace). So many good church goin' folk I knew taught this as Scriptural fact, that it must be true. I used to think that way.
But then one day I woke up and realized I was believing a lie.

Many different things testify to this truth.

1. Scripture.
2. Logic.
3. Real world examples.
4. Morality.​

1. Scripture:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).​

2. Logic:

Just looking at things mathematically as an equation, we can see that "grace + no nothing else = salvation" is a false equation. Many have committed suicide thinking they would be saved by God's grace. It turns God's grace into a license for immorality. For was David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? In other words, if Grace is truly sufficient to save and no amount of good works or holiness plays no part in our salvation whatsoever, then we can be axe murdering rapists and still be saved by having a belief in Jesus. But many will say that no true believe will live like that. They will say they are regenerated, etc., etc. So they believe in a standard of holiness, but they say that it is not required as a part of salvation. It is a contradiction. They are double speaking. They preaching a double message.

The "Grace + nothing = salvation" equation means you can sin and still be saved because sin would be included in the category of "nothing."​

3. Real World Examples:

This is where a Belief Alone type faith crumbles even more. Jesus many times related his spiritual truths with real world examples. These are called Parables. Even a Canaanite woman had expounded upon Jesus's parable with an extended parable of her own and Jesus commended her faith because of it. So this means that if we are teaching spiritual truth, then we should be able to illustrate our belief that comes from God's Word with a real world example. A Belief Alone in the real world does not truly make somebody a good person. Somebody may say that they believe in Jesus, but if they have you tied up and they are planning to kill you, chances are they do not believe in Jesus. Their actions tell another story.​

4. Morality:

The "Grace alone + nothing = salvation" equation is the kind of belief that will lead someone to justify sin in some way (Whether that sin be big or small). Some have told me that they can mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and they would be saved while doing so. Others are more subtle and they say that they do not seek to sin but we are all sinners and we are not perfect. But yet, they say they are changed and different. While sinning less than one's old self is good, sinning less does not make one a better person. For they are still doing evil and thinking they are saved. However, the Bible says the fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. For it is why we have to strive by God's power to be completely sold out to God and His righteousness. If not, then we are serving two masters (God and sin). But Jesus says we cannot serve two masters, for we will hate the one and love the other. My prayer is that a person chooses to hate sin and love God. But only one's words will reveal their true heart intentions.​

As for belief in Jesus being a work of God:

Well, if Jesus says in His Word to believe in Him is a work of God, I choose to believe that and it is not my place to argue with Him.​

In any event, whether you agree or disagree, may God's love shine upon you this fine evening.

May you please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

Thank you for continuing to give me things to think about. I am not afraid to think anything. Too many churchfolk think they are going somewhere they are not and I know that. I'm not intimidated by them; I fear and love God, because He first loved me.
 
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thecolorsblend

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If salvation hinges on your respond to the (a) gospel, you are the savior, not Christ.
If somebody offers you a million dollars and you accept it, you paid yourself the million dollars, not whoever actually paid you the million dollars.

Same logic, yes?
 
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Dave L

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If somebody offers you a million dollars and you accept it, you paid yourself the million dollars, not whoever actually paid you the million dollars.

Same logic, yes?
Not comparable to salvation. It's more like Lazarus dead and rotting in the tomb. After 4 days Jesus tells him to come out. Lazarus heard the command (gospel), so he was already alive at the time, and responded (repented) fleeing the stench of death.
 
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Dave L

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Again, you are wrong. If salvation hinges on any individual's response to THE GOSPEL, That GOSPEL is the one and only true, announced, and chosen GOSPEL of The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the God and Father of my LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. HE, not me, CHOSE to give man the opportunity to be saved because of what our absolutely amazing God has done to even make that choice possible. Jesus could have called the legions of angels and then none of us could have been saved. HE DID NOT. Jesus could have said in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that all men would be saved." HE DID NOT SAY THAT. Jesus could have said: "For God so loved the chosen ones, that He gave His only begotten Son that they would be saved." HE DID NOT SAY THAT. If unbelief was impossible for the chosen, there was no need to include "whosoever believes in Him". Yet, HE DID NOT SAY THAT.

Again, just in case you would be able to hear it this time and believe:

It would be impossible for me to be saved at all, regardless of any and all choices I made and make, if Jesus Christ had not paid the price for me. Anything I do is wholly insufficient to save me--including my choice that John 3:16 speaks of; but, because of what GOD DID AND DOES, my choice now matters!

As others before me have said, there would be no reason for Paul or Peter to suggest that God desires ALL, if God knew that ALL could not happen, because God had an elect and the rest were to be destroyed without having an opportunity to be saved--opened through the choice to believe. I believe all the Scriptures, not just the ones that promote my theology.

If one can't account for all the relevant Scriptures within their theology, then their theology isn't yet correct. You clearly can't account for all relevant Scriptures, so rather than continuing to repeat the same false statements, why not explore why you can't account for them all?

My concern is that you are so bound by the traditions and lies of man that you are incapable of hearing the Truth that Jesus Himself spoke?
You are turning the gospel into law, and salvation by grace into salvation by works. The truth is, you believe and repent because God saved you. God did not save you because you chose to believe and chose to repent.

If the latter is true, people are saved because they chose to act like Christians which is hypocrisy.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Not comparable to salvation.
I was applying your thinking to something else. So let’s try again.

If somebody offers you a million dollars and you accept it, you paid yourself the million dollars, not whoever actually paid you the million dollars.

Same logic, yes?
 
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Dave L

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This is where Prevenient Grace comes in.
Also, good works are by-product of the Lord working in us when we surrender to Him.
Prevenient grace is not grace. Grace changes the dead human spirit into a living spirit baptized in the Holy Spirit. Not conditioned on human response. You believe because God saved you. He did not save you because you chose to believe.
 
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ExTiff

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God no longer holds the world's sins against them. They don't all know that though. We therefore tell them. They respond to that 'news' by either believing God no longer holds their sins against them and therefore, become themselves in return, reconciled to God, in mutual agreement at cessation of hostilities, OR they reject God's offer of reconciliation and continue in rebellion.
.
 
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Dave L

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I was applying your thinking to something else. So let’s try again.

If somebody offers you a million dollars and you accept it, you paid yourself the million dollars, not whoever actually paid you the million dollars.

Same logic, yes?
Salvation is not offered for our acceptance. God saves us (new birth) then faith and repentance follow.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Salvation is not offered for our acceptance. God saves us (new birth) then faith and repentance follow.
Lovely.

Now, would you care to answer the question I actually asked? If it helps, one possible answer is “yes”. The other possible answer is “no”.
 
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ExTiff

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If somebody offers you a million dollars and you accept it, you paid yourself the million dollars, not whoever actually paid you the million dollars.

We do not have the option of 'accepting salvation'. It is provided whether we like it or not. We can however reject it. It is more like your nationality. You have no choice but to accept it if your born in a certain country, but you can refuse to live there and burn your passport, if you are stupid enough.

Same with salvation.
 
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ExTiff

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Prevenient grace is not grace. Grace changes the dead human spirit into a living spirit baptized in the Holy Spirit. Not conditioned on human response. You believe because God saved you. He did not save you because you chose to believe.

O hearing the gospel, you believe that God has saved you. Belief is not a response, it is acceptance of The Truth, which in fact is Christ. Jn.14:6.This is why Paul says to the Galatians, "Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?".
.
 
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Dave L

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O hearing the gospel, you believe that God has saved you. Belief is not a response, it is acceptance of The Truth, which in fact is Christ. Jn.14:6.This is why Paul says to the Galatians, "Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?".
.
Do you need to choose to believe the chair you are sitting in is real? People who choose to believe do not believe, or they wouldn't need to fix their mind on something not experientially real to them.
 
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Dave L

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Lovely.

Now, would you care to answer the question I actually asked? If it helps, one possible answer is “yes”. The other possible answer is “no”.
If you stoop to pick up salvation, you are the savior, not God who dropped it in front of you.
 
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Dave L

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God no longer holds the world's sins against them. They don't all know that though. We therefore tell them. They respond to that 'news' by either believing God no longer holds their sins against them and therefore, become themselves in return, reconciled to God, in mutual agreement at cessation of hostilities, OR they reject God's offer of reconciliation and continue in rebellion.
.
Then everyone is saved in the end?
 
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thecolorsblend

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If you stoop to pick up salvation, you are the savior, not God who dropped it in front of you.
I’ll go ahead and assume that your answer is “yes” then. Thanks.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???
The law of liberty allows us freedom in interpreting how faith, loyalty is to be expressed. the law of works did not have this freedom. It was compulsory to be circumcised. Everybody had to give tithes to the Temple.

However, the one who judges whether we showed loyalty or disloyalty is Christ, so we should be careful how we manifest that faith.

James 2:12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13For judgment will bemerciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Your freedom is not from faith. It is from how you show that faith. It is from the Sinaitic Covenant.

1 Peter 2:16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

Galatians 4:30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
 
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Dave L

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Again, your answer of “yes” has been duly noted. Thanks.
Simply put, if God did not first give you a new heart, you would love your sin more than him, and never come yo Christ. But, people love false images of Christ and follow that idol for all they're worth.
 
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