We are not saved by works?

[Danthemailman]

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

So we need to be baptized.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.
1 John 1:9

So we need to confess our sins.

Notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10). Some people misinterpret verse 9 to mean that we must confess each sin that we commit as we commit them (keep a specific inventory) as an additional requirement to remain cleansed and if we forget a sin we are toast!

Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day.
John 6:54

This bit from St. John 6 speaks for itself.

Lol, "sola fide"...

Jesus is not talking about "literally" eating His flesh and drinking His blood here (cannibalism), but the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ, as He makes abundantly clear by repeating the same truths. Compare for example the following two verses:

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 6:58 - This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. "He who eats this bread will live forever."

“He who believes” in Christ equates to “he who eats this bread” because the result is the same, eternal life. The parallel is also found between verses 40 and 54:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (v54).

John 6 does not afford any support to the false doctrine of transubstantiation. On the contrary, it is an emphatic statement on the primacy of faith as the means by which we receive the grace of God. Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him.

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

no one gets saved by "works", for works is NOT the basis on which we are judged. it is if we are RIGTHEOUS.

your buddhist guy would probably get to heaven if "works" is the basis of salvation.

thus "works" is only the "means" to become righteous, and not the reason to get saved directly (as many has mistakenly argued). But that DOESNT work, for we are ALL under sin. no one is rigtheous, not even one. that method/way is impossible. for to be RIGHTEOUS is to be 100% perfect in works, not simply doing good works here and there. its the perfect SCORE, not the effort, that counts. and that's how you get to be RIGTHEOUS before God.

therefore GOD provided a "second" method/way for men and women to become RIGHTEOUS. it is still by "works" but by another - Jesus Christ who lived sinlessly and obeyed the law 100% score. so that by FAITH in HIM, his RigHteousness becomes OUR OWN, and we ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS not by our "own" works, but through FAITH in Christ. In Christ, before God, we scored 100%.

thus salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone.

i actually just paraphrased the entire Romans 3 for you all.

Romans 3 is talking about "Initial Salvation" and or how we are not saved by the works of the Law. Romans 3:1 says what profit is there in circumcision? What advantage does the Jew have? Romans 4:9-12 makes a case how we are not initially saved by circumcision involving Abraham. But did circumcision save in the Old Testament? Yes, after one is first saved by faith in the Lord, a person needed to then later continue in the faith and be circumcised in the OT Covenant (When it used to be in effect before the cross). For...

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

In other words, Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which was a heresy condemned also at the Jerusalem counsel - See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). So he is saying that folks need to first repent (seek forgiveness) and believe in Jesus for salvation first as the foundation of their faith to be saved. This is why Paul says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Paul is talking about how everyone has sinned at one point in their lives. For even the believer sinned as part of their old life (See Ephesians 2:2-3). You no doubt believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is even referring to the present current state of the believer in how they live now. Meaning, you believe that Paul is saying that believers even sin in the present tense all the time. But this is not what Paul is saying. How do we know? Well, if you believe Paul is referring to the present tense life of how a believer lives in regards to Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23, then you must also believe a believer does not seek after God and they have no understanding according to Romans 3:11, too. Are you saying you have no understanding and you do not seek after God? I sure hope not. So then you cannot make Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 apply to your present life in how you live, either. In relation to the believer: These verses are talking about our old life before we came to Christ (See again: Ephesians 2:2-3).

 

[Neostarwcc]

Paul does not say that. What he is saying is nothing we do saves us.

Works do not save us but we will be judged by our works. Does that make sense?

Yes it does. Thank you.

Is this a sincere question, or are you asking a rhetorical question to start a debate? If sincere, then have you gotten a satisfactory answer from some of these posts? These are sincere questions, as I am curious and would like to know your answer.
TD

Hello, yes it was a serious question and I got satisfactory answers from it. Thanks all for the answers.

Actually Paul says "works of the Law" twice in Rom 3.

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Hmm you're right. He should have said works of the Law in Romans 4:5 too because many pastors and Christians are interpreting it as works.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10). Some people misinterpret verse 9 to mean that we must confess each sin that we commit as we commit them (keep a specific inventory) as an additional requirement to remain cleansed and if we forget a sin we are toast!

Jesus is not talking about "literally" eating His flesh and drinking His blood here (cannibalism), but the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ, as He makes abundantly clear by repeating the same truths. Compare for example the following two verses:

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 6:58 - This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. "He who eats this bread will live forever."

“He who believes” in Christ equates to “he who eats this bread” because the result is the same, eternal life. The parallel is also found between verses 40 and 54:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (v54).

John 6 does not afford any support to the false doctrine of transubstantiation. On the contrary, it is an emphatic statement on the primacy of faith as the means by which we receive the grace of God. Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him.

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.

Exactly! I'm going to make a separate thread about this so that we csan stay on topic here.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Posted the topic. You can find it here: Is baptism a requirement for salvation?

 

[rusti-one]

New here. Morning all

What comes to mind is "The work of the Father is to Believe in Him whom He sent"...Jesus. So, according to that, Paul is correct. Now, if one says they have faith, (in belief Jesus is the Messiah), but has not works, his faith is dead. They may not have been actually born-again (as yet), receiving the Holy Spirit into their hearts/lives. When Jesus comes in, it is once for all. "It is Finished". God puts a LOT on those who give Him the chance to come into their hearts being "born again". Works come as one "walks in the Spirit" and not in the flesh...and it is Christ in us, our hope of glory. As true believers, we then have the choice, since we are still in the flesh.

As far as water baptism, remember the thief on the cross, when Jesus our Lord told him "This day, you will be with me in Paradise"...salvation once again is by faith...consider that is not by any other works the thief has done. I was water baptized several years after I was saved, and it was a very special day, the Holy Spirit very strong, however, I was saved before that day, with the Lord in my life. That's been my experience anyway, and what I see in the scripture. Paul is correct. Other outward "works" may be a blessing to those who do them, and those around us.

 

[Neostarwcc]

New here. Morning all

What comes to mind is "The work of the Father is to Believe in Him whom He sent"...Jesus. So, according to that, Paul is correct. Now, if one says they have faith, (in belief Jesus is the Messiah), but has not works, his faith is dead. They may not have been actually born-again (as yet), receiving the Holy Spirit into their hearts/lives. When Jesus comes in, it is once for all. "It is Finished". God puts a LOT on those who give Him the chance to come into their hearts being "born again". Works come as one "walks in the Spirit" and not in the flesh...and it is Christ in us, our hope of glory. As true believers, we then have the choice, since we are still in the flesh.

As far as water baptism, remember the thief on the cross, when Jesus our Lord told him "This day, you will be with me in Paradise"...salvation once again is by faith...consider that is not by any other works the thief has done. I was water baptized several years after I was saved, and it was a very special day, the Holy Spirit very strong, however, I was saved before that day, with the Lord in my life. That's been my experience anyway, and what I see in the scripture. Paul is correct. Other outward "works" may be a blessing to those who do them, and those around us.

I couldn't have said it better myself. A true faith would have works as the Holy Spirit guides us in our lives.

 

[Barney2.0]

To put it simply, Paul is speaking of works of the law, James and Jesus are speaking about good works of the faith. So there is no contradiction, one must look carefully within the text of the New Testament to see how the word works is used.

 

[Dave L]

To put it simply, Paul is speaking of works of the law, James and Jesus are speaking about good works of the faith. So there is no contradiction, one must look carefully within the text of the New Testament to see how the word works is used.

We still have a principle where churches turn the gospel into law, and make salvation conditional = of works. The gospel simply tells people God already saved them if they happen to believe what they hear about Jesus. And then we tell any who believe to be baptized and live a holy life as defined by scripture.

 

[DamianWarS]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

there certainly is tension created when these texts are juxtaposed together but did you consider that Paul's words were for a different audience that was unique to James' audience or Jesus' audience? perhaps if we understand the audience more we may understand why Paul presented salvation this way.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

I don't believe there are any contradictions in the Bible. And, I don't believe Paul contradicted Jesus or James. But, like Peter said: " as also in all [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

2 Peter 3:16 (ASV) ​

If you grab one verse from Paul and run with it, you will get a very different impression than when you keep what Paul says within the whole of what Paul says. Compare these two verses side by side (Rom 4:5 and Rom 8:13).

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13)

They certainly appear to say completely different things and the author of both is Paul.

Consider the Epistle to the Galatians, also. In the same Letter, he mentions not coming back under The Law and not sowing to the flesh:

Gal 2:21: "I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness came through the Law, then Christ is dead in vain."

In other words, if someone could come to God without needing the sacrifice of Jesus, then Jesus died in vain. That was Paul's point.

Gal 3:2-3: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

same concept. Through preaching, you came to faith in Jesus. Now, are you going to walk away from what brought you to faith and follow the Law to be made perfect?

Gal 5:13-21: "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Paul is confirming that those who are doing these things, and thus proving they are walking in the flesh not walking in the Spirit, and they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus said the same through Revelation.

Gal 6:7-10: "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

Not faint in going good? do good to all men? Sure sounds like what Jesus said in Matthew 25 in His discussion of the sheep and the goats and consistent with what Paul said in Romans 8:13--much more than the idea people try to sell that Paul is against doing any works, doesn't it?

It boils down to intent, because God looks at the heart. Avoiding adultery because it is against the law is very different than not committing adultery because you are so in sync with the Holy Spirit that the idea of hurting someone for your own temporary satisfaction just doesn't even cross your mind anymore or if it does, you immediately reject it because the thought isn't consistent with loving others.
In both Epistles, Paul cites Abraham. Abraham believed God. And, as a result of Abraham's belief in God, Abraham acted on what God told him. Abraham didn't have The Law. But, Abraham certainly did what God told him to do--even to the point of sending away a son he loved and being willing to kill the other. That's real faith.

Paul is warning against putting yourself back under the Law, because Paul knows that isn't what Jesus came to do. Jesus came to free us from the bondage of the Law. He came to fulfill the Law on our behalf. Because the Law suggested that: "Now if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God and are careful to follow all His commandments I am giving you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you, if you will obey the voice of the LORD your God:...." Deut 28:1-2)

But, if people go back to thinking they can earn their own salvation by being good enough, that is exactly where the Jews had gone wrong. In Galatians 2:21 that: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Even in Matthew 25, both sets of people said to Jesus: "Lord when did we...?" (Matt 25:38-39, 44) So, there wasn't a sense of "I did this, so God owes me."

At the same time, if people think they can do whatever they want and be saved, they are deceiving themselves, but as Paul said in both Galatians and Romans. God won't be mocked. People will reap what they sow.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I don't believe there are any contradictions in the Bible. And, I don't believe Paul contradicted Jesus or James. But, like Peter said: " as also in all [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

2 Peter 3:16 (ASV) ​

If you grab one verse from Paul and run with it, you will get a very different impression than when you keep what Paul says within the whole of what Paul says. Compare these two verses side by side (Rom 4:5 and Rom 8:13).

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13)

They certainly appear to say completely different things and the author of both is Paul.

Consider the Epistle to the Galatians, also. In the same Letter, he mentions not coming back under The Law and not sowing to the flesh:

Gal 2:21: "I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness came through the Law, then Christ is dead in vain."

In other words, if someone could come to God without needing the sacrifice of Jesus, then Jesus died in vain. That was Paul's point.

Gal 3:2-3: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

same concept. Through preaching, you came to faith in Jesus. Now, are you going to walk away from what brought you to faith and follow the Law to be made perfect?

Gal 5:13-21: "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Paul is confirming that those who are doing these things, and thus proving they are walking in the flesh not walking in the Spirit, and they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus said the same through Revelation.

Gal 6:7-10: "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

Not faint in going good? do good to all men? Sure sounds like what Jesus said in Matthew 25 in His discussion of the sheep and the goats and consistent with what Paul said in Romans 8:13--much more than the idea people try to sell that Paul is against doing any works, doesn't it?

It boils down to intent, because God looks at the heart. Avoiding adultery because it is against the law is very different than not committing adultery because you are so in sync with the Holy Spirit that the idea of hurting someone for your own temporary satisfaction just doesn't even cross your mind anymore or if it does, you immediately reject it because the thought isn't consistent with loving others.
In both Epistles, Paul cites Abraham. Abraham believed God. And, as a result of Abraham's belief in God, Abraham acted on what God told him. Abraham didn't have The Law. But, Abraham certainly did what God told him to do--even to the point of sending away a son he loved and being willing to kill the other. That's real faith.

Paul is warning against putting yourself back under the Law, because Paul knows that isn't what Jesus came to do. Jesus came to free us from the bondage of the Law. He came to fulfill the Law on our behalf. Because the Law suggested that: "Now if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God and are careful to follow all His commandments I am giving you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you, if you will obey the voice of the LORD your God:...." Deut 28:1-2)

But, if people go back to thinking they can earn their own salvation by being good enough, that is exactly where the Jews had gone wrong. In Galatians 2:21 that: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Even in Matthew 25, both sets of people said to Jesus: "Lord when did we...?" (Matt 25:38-39, 44) So, there wasn't a sense of "I did this, so God owes me."

At the same time, if people think they can do whatever they want and be saved, they are deceiving themselves, but as Paul said in both Galatians and Romans. God won't be mocked. People will reap what they sow.

I don't believe there are contradictions in the bible either. Thanks for explaining it what you said makes a lot of sense.

 

[AlexDTX]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

What we do most of the time is what we actually believe. This is a man's track record. We may occasionally yield to temptations, but repentance is quick to follow.

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Mar_7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Real Christians walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

We still have a principle where churches turn the gospel into law, and make salvation conditional = of works. The gospel simply tells people God already saved them if they happen to believe what they hear about Jesus. And then we tell any who believe to be baptized and live a holy life as defined by scripture.

You are still not understanding The Gospel. You have taken your definition of works too far. The only Scripture writer that you can cite to support your arguments is Paul. AND, Paul says as much that contrasts what you are claiming as he says that supports what you are claiming. I understand you try to repackage those things as a battle of natures. But, again that is not what Paul is talking about.

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him." (Romans 6:8) Based on what Paul said, not what you have been told or determined yourself, if you didn't die with Christ, can you expect to live with Him?

"Know you not, that to whom you yield your servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16)

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you shall die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many who are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God." (Rom 8:12-14)

It isn't about following the Law of Moses. It is about walking in a relationship with God and if you are really walking in a relationship with God, you won't obey the flesh. Paul is very consistent. He says virtually the same thing in Galatians.

 

[Barney2.0]

We still have a principle where churches turn the gospel into law, and make salvation conditional = of works. The gospel simply tells people God already saved them if they happen to believe what they hear about Jesus. And then we tell any who believe to be baptized and live a holy life as defined by scripture.

The Gospel says we must work on our salvation and with it with good works.

 

[Albion]

No one that I know is opposed to the idea of people performing good works.

 

[Danielwright2311]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

How does good works save you?

Being saved is done by Jesus and doing good works is done by you.

Dont confuse the two.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I don't believe there are contradictions in the bible either. Thanks for explaining it what you said makes a lot of sense.

I really like the idea behind this forum. God has used this forum significantly for me. The Holy Spirit is my Mentor/Teacher/Counselor/Comforter, but God has used the diversity of opinions on here to challenge what I believe--Always to take me deeper than I might have ever felt I needed to go.

I just took some things for granted and didn't have to consider how they tied together, until challenged by someone who really believed something totally different. The forum is only a recent addition for me, but that is how God has worked my whole life. God broke off lies that I had believed through people. And, God has used me to break lies off others. I just want to remain humble enough, so I can know when God is doing which one and continue to grow in Him! The Bible is such an amazing treasure and to think The Bible is only a piece of the true and living Word of God (the Person). Our need for the Holy Spirit to lead us into all Truth is no less than it was when the Apostles (including Paul) were used by Him to write the Scriptures.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

A lot of people have been baptized but don't have saving faith, because of false doctrines. Eg. church-goers who have prayed the sinner's prayer and have been baptized and go to church once a week, but never surrendered their lives to Jesus, or those who have been baptized as infants but then grew up without faith or as "Christians" who never surrendered their lives to God. A person can be baptized in water without having received the Holy Spirit, and many have been.

Emli, I agree with much of the false outcomes you have spoken of; and what you wrote in total is definitely making me think. But, when you say things like "A lot of people have been baptized but don't have saving faith, because of false doctrines".... I agree with the evidence you cited, but I struggle with the reason you give in the cause and effect argument.

When people don't "surrender their lives," does it have anything to do with the false doctrine of the particular church or even their own false doctrines about God? I submit that God can break the lies off those who are willing to have the lies broken off them, regardless of the church or individual doctrine they have. For example:

If false doctrine were the eliminator, God could have never woken me up, because I didn't even believe He still did the "born-again" thing and wouldn't have been caught dead in a church that talked about being born again when He did it to me anyway.

A guy named Randy Clark, a trained southern Baptist pastor and historian, believed his Baptist indoctrination that the gifts of the Spirit were not for today and then God started doing those things through Randy Clark anyway. Then, God used that man to break the lie off me that "all healing evangelists were frauds".

Wouldn't it really be that they don't surrender, because they don't really trust Him? And, they don't really trust Him, because they don't really believe? Then, the obvious "backward planning" question is: why do some, and why don't others, really believe enough to surrender?

 

[Dave L]

The Gospel says we must work on our salvation and with it with good works.

I'm not familiar with your interpretation. Good works come from a new nature in the new birth. Just as bad works come from a depraved nature without trying.