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We are not saved by works?

klutedavid

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None of that negates the necessity for baptism.
But which baptism?

Matthew 3:11
As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luke 3:16
John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Mark 1:8
I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:5
For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

Acts 11:16
And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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This is good if we let it lay. But many think we must decide or choose to believe thereby turning grace into law. The truth is, if you decide to believe it is because you already believe (are saved) or you wouldn't decide to believe. But many think their choosing saved them and they trust in themselves instead of Christ for salvation.

NO! That is what you think it does. Many, including myself, have tried to help you understand that choice and works are not the same thing. In no way does the perspective of choice claim to be self-sufficient. And, the absolutely only reason that what God did isn't sufficient for all to be saved, is because HE CHOSE to leave it up to people believing. Believing, no matter how you try to redefine it, is something people choose to do.

You claim people like me add to John 3:16. Let's add "chooses to" in and watch the impact on John 3:17-19:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [chooses to] believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. The one who chooses to believeth on Him is not condemned: but the one that chooses to believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

So adding "chooses to" doesn't change the meaning. God didn't send His Son to be sacrificed to condemn the world. The one who "chooses to" believe is not condemned (by God creating the way for that person to be saved). Light came into the world and men loved the darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil "and therefore they chose not to come to Him".

But, you fail to see that you have added different words in and their effect. So let's add them in and see what happens in the same context:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [was chosen to] believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn [those God chose from the world]; but that [those God chose from the world] through him might be saved. [Only the chosen ones therefore believeth on him and are] not condemned: but [those God chose against] are condemned already, because [those God chose against COULD NOT] believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God [because God chose against them]. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and [those God chose against] loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

So, because in John 3:16, you changed the sentence to "was chosen to believe," John 3:17-19 has no meaning. The world is judged. God chose some and the rest He chose against. Therefore the ones He chose to allow to believe won't be condemned; but all the ones He chose not to give the ability to believe are condemned--not because they chose not to believe, but because God didn't allow them to believe. And so the condemnation in your theology would really need to say "This is the condemnation, That Light came into the world and the men God chose could love the light; but the men God chose against couldn't see the light, because God didn't allow them to." So, who would be the direct cause of that individual being condemned, God or man--if one could not have chosen Him?
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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You completed redefined "baptism" as a word while creating connections between scriptural passages which are as nonsensical as they are artificial. That's not exegesis, bro, that's just nonsense.

huh? I didn't even say anything about baptism. I was responding to a subset of the discussion, which related to John 6. Do you read before you write? Or are you so blinded by the traditions of men that you can't think for yourself, so you call legitimate teachings of Jesus nonsensical and made up? The jewish leaders of Jesus' time rejected His teachings too. I don't recommend keeping company with them. Jesus didn't seem to suggest it turned out okay for them.
 
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Dave L

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NO! That is what you think it does. Many, including myself, have tried to help you understand that choice and works are not the same thing. In no way does the perspective of choice claim to be self-sufficient. And, the absolutely only reason that what God did isn't sufficient for all to be saved, is because HE CHOSE to leave it up to people believing. Believing, no matter how you try to redefine it, is something people choose to do.

You claim people like me add to John 3:16. Let's add "chooses to" in and watch the impact on John 3:17-19:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [chooses to] believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. The one who chooses to believeth on Him is not condemned: but the one that chooses to believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

So adding "chooses to" doesn't change the meaning. God didn't send His Son to be sacrificed to condemn the world. The one who "chooses to" believe is not condemned (by God creating the way for that person to be saved). Light came into the world and men loved the darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil "and therefore they chose not to come to Him".

But, you fail to see that you have added different words in and their effect. So let's add them in and see what happens in the same context:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [was chosen to] believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn [those God chose from the world]; but that [those God chose from the world] through him might be saved. [Only the chosen ones therefore believeth on him and are] not condemned: but [those God chose against] are condemned already, because [those God chose against COULD NOT] believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God [because God chose against them]. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and [those God chose against] loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

So, because in John 3:16, you changed the sentence to "was chosen to believe," John 3:17-19 has no meaning. The world is judged. God chose some and the rest He chose against. Therefore the ones He chose to allow to believe won't be condemned; but all the ones He chose not to give the ability to believe are condemned--not because they chose not to believe, but because God didn't allow them to believe. And so the condemnation in your theology would really need to say "This is the condemnation, That Light came into the world and the men God chose could love the light; but the men God chose against couldn't see the light, because God didn't allow them to." So, who would be the direct cause of that individual being condemned, God or man--if one could not have chosen Him?
If salvation hinges on your respond to the (a) gospel, you are the savior, not Christ.
 
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Dave L

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Salvation isn’t solely based on faith nor is it solely based on good works, it’s a combination of both in a life working process.
It's an act of grace God performs in our heart that lasts forever. Good works follow because it's our new nature to do good works.
 
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Dave L

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Acting like a Christian doesn’t make a person a Christian then again, claiming belief in Jesus and not acting like a Christian doesn’t make you one.
Believing in Jesus is what genuine Christians do. Those who turn it into a condition we must mimic in order to be saved are merely acting like Christians.
 
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Barney2.0

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Believing in Jesus is what genuine Christians do. Those who turn it into a condition we must mimic in order to be saved are merely acting like Christians.
Believing in Jesus includes doing good works.
 
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Barney2.0

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It's an act of grace God performs in our heart that lasts forever. Good works follow because it's our new nature to do good works.
Yes, but they both work simultaneously with our salvation.
 
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When I read the Scriptures, while it does talk of a new birth and how the Lord works through us, there is also other Scriptures that say we actually have to surrender and focus on doing the good works ourselves, too. For the New Testament alone has around 1,000 commands. If we were to just automatically do what is right and good, why all the specific commands or detailed instructions? In other words, we have to cooperate with the Lord. It is synergistic. Man has free will even in the new birth. We are not robots. Man will be held accountable for His actions (both unbelievers and true believers).
 
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If salvation hinges on your respond to the (a) gospel, you are the savior, not Christ.

This is where Prevenient Grace comes in.
Also, good works are by-product of the Lord working in us when we surrender to Him.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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If salvation hinges on your respond to the (a) gospel, you are the savior, not Christ.

Again, you are wrong. If salvation hinges on any individual's response to THE GOSPEL, That GOSPEL is the one and only true, announced, and chosen GOSPEL of The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the God and Father of my LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. HE, not me, CHOSE to give man the opportunity to be saved because of what our absolutely amazing God has done to even make that choice possible. Jesus could have called the legions of angels and then none of us could have been saved. HE DID NOT. Jesus could have said in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that all men would be saved." HE DID NOT SAY THAT. Jesus could have said: "For God so loved the chosen ones, that He gave His only begotten Son that they would be saved." HE DID NOT SAY THAT. If unbelief was impossible for the chosen, there was no need to include "whosoever believes in Him". Yet, HE DID NOT SAY THAT.

Again, just in case you would be able to hear it this time and believe:

It would be impossible for me to be saved at all, regardless of any and all choices I made and make, if Jesus Christ had not paid the price for me. Anything I do is wholly insufficient to save me--including my choice that John 3:16 speaks of; but, because of what GOD DID AND DOES, my choice now matters!

As others before me have said, there would be no reason for Paul or Peter to suggest that God desires ALL, if God knew that ALL could not happen, because God had an elect and the rest were to be destroyed without having an opportunity to be saved--opened through the choice to believe. I believe all the Scriptures, not just the ones that promote my theology.

If one can't account for all the relevant Scriptures within their theology, then their theology isn't yet correct. You clearly can't account for all relevant Scriptures, so rather than continuing to repeat the same false statements, why not explore why you can't account for them all?

My concern is that you are so bound by the traditions and lies of man that you are incapable of hearing the Truth that Jesus Himself spoke?
 
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NO! That is what you think it does. Many, including myself, have tried to help you understand that choice and works are not the same thing.

Belief is considered a work.

28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
(John 6:28-29).​

Also, believing on Jesus is a commandment.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).​

Commandments are laws.
Some say we are not under any law in regards to our salvation.
However, if that is true, then what about 1 John 3:23 that says we are commanded to believe on the name of Jesus?
 
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marineimaging

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Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???
First of all you cannot read one verse of the Bible and become instantly knowledgeable about the whole of God's intentions for salvation, history, service, and blessings..., and especially the Grace of God, Jesus. When Jesus was on the cross he promised a thief on one side of him that he would be in paradise with him today, yet he and done absolutely NO works for his salvation. The question is, what is WORKS vs what is DEEDS. To say that you can't enter heaven by doing what the Jews do is not the same thing as saying as Jesus did that you fed me when I was hungry. All of the things spoken of there were part and parcel of accept Christ and fulfilling the commission laid out by him.
 
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Again, you are wrong. If salvation hinges on any individual's response to THE GOSPEL, That GOSPEL is the one and only true, announced, and chosen GOSPEL of The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the God and Father of my LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. HE, not me, CHOSE to give man the opportunity to be saved because of what our absolutely amazing God has done to even make that choice possible. Jesus could have called the legions of angels and then none of us could have been saved. HE DID NOT. Jesus could have said in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that all men would be saved." HE DID NOT SAY THAT. Jesus could have said: "For God so loved the chosen ones, that He gave His only begotten Son that they would be saved." HE DID NOT SAY THAT. If unbelief was impossible for the chosen, there was no need to include "whosoever believes in Him". Yet, HE DID NOT SAY THAT.

Again, just in case you would be able to hear it this time and believe:

It would be impossible for me to be saved at all, regardless of any and all choices I made and make, if Jesus Christ had not paid the price for me. Anything I do is wholly insufficient to save me--including my choice that John 3:16 speaks of; but, because of what GOD DID AND DOES, my choice now matters!

As others before me have said, there would be no reason for Paul or Peter to suggest that God desires ALL, if God knew that ALL could not happen, because God had an elect and the rest were to be destroyed without having an opportunity to be saved--opened through the choice to believe. I believe all the Scriptures, not just the ones that promote my theology.

If one can't account for all the relevant Scriptures within their theology, then their theology isn't yet correct. You clearly can't account for all relevant Scriptures, so rather than continuing to repeat the same false statements, why not explore why you can't account for them all?

My concern is that you are so bound by the traditions and lies of man that you are incapable of hearing the Truth that Jesus Himself spoke?

Part of the "call of the gospel" (that involves God having chosen us for salvation) is:

(a) A belief in the truth (Jesus) and,
(b) The Sanctification of the Spirit.

13 “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)."​

For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world (See Titus 2:11-12).

The grace of God does not teach that we have a license to sin or to treat sin as if it is no big deal. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live righteously. So if we are say,

"Hey, I generally live upright, but nobody is perfect and we all sin and I am saved by grace, grace, grace..."​

Well.... if that is what one is saying, then I am got news for this person:

The grace of God teaches us that we can live righteously in this present world. If one is admitting that we all sin and we are not perfect, then they technically are not living righteously in this present world according to Titus 2:12. For if a person admits they sin or they are a sinner, they are not living righteously but they are living unrighteously. Scripture says all unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17).
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Belief is considered a work.

28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
(John 6:28-29).

Believing on Jesus is a commandment.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

Commandments are laws.
Some say we are not under any law in regards to our salvation.
However, if that is true, then what about 1 John 3:23 that says we are commanded to believe on the name of Jesus?

I understand Jason. And, I, too, believe the Scriptures you shared. But, some try to twist that into a "works salvation"--as if we coming under the former Law or turning the gift into an earned income by choosing to believe. They believe that somehow because we believe that God gave us a choice to believe, that it somehow becomes a work that negates the free Gift of God.

It was in that context that I said it was not a work.
 
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While the regeneration is important, if the regeneration is what is truly responsible ultimately for making us do good works and living holy and we are not responsible in regards to doing good as a part of the salvation process (after being saved by God's grace), then why do we read about this:

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).​

Why is God congratulating the servant for something that He really had no control over?

In fact, we read about how there is an unprofitable servant:

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).​

Surely our Lord is telling us this parable so that we can learn from it. He does not want us to be like the unprofitable servant where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. I believe a servant can be unprofitable for God's kingdom if they justify sin or they have a message or gospel that can lead people into sin.
 
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I understand Jason. And, I, too, believe the Scriptures you shared. But, some try to twist that into a "works salvation"--as if we coming under the former Law or turning the gift into an earned income by choosing to believe. They believe that somehow because we believe that God gave us a choice to believe, that it somehow becomes a work that negates the free Gift of God.

It was in that context that I said it was not a work.

At one time in my life, I used to be afraid to think we were saved by works (in addition to God's saving grace). So many good church goin' folk I knew taught this as Scriptural fact, that it must be true. I used to think that way.
But then one day I woke up and realized I was believing a lie.

Many different things testify to this truth.

1. Scripture.
2. Logic.
3. Real world examples.
4. Morality.​

1. Scripture:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).​

2. Logic:

Just looking at things mathematically as an equation, we can see that "grace + no nothing else = salvation" is a false equation. Many have committed suicide thinking they would be saved by God's grace. It turns God's grace into a license for immorality. For was David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? In other words, if Grace is truly sufficient to save and no amount of good works or holiness plays no part in our salvation whatsoever, then we can be axe murdering rapists and still be saved by having a belief in Jesus. But many will say that no true believer will live like that. They will say they are regenerated, etc., etc. So they believe in a standard of holiness, but they say that it is not required as a part of salvation. It is a contradiction. They are double speaking. They preaching a double message.

The "Grace + nothing = salvation" equation means you can sin and still be saved because sin would be included in the category of "nothing."​

3. Real World Examples:

This is where a Belief Alone type faith crumbles even more. Jesus many times related his spiritual truths with real world examples. These are called Parables. Even a Canaanite woman had expounded upon Jesus's parable with an extended parable of her own and Jesus commended her faith because of it. So this means that if we are teaching spiritual truth, then we should be able to illustrate our belief that comes from God's Word with a real world example. A Belief Alone in the real world does not truly make somebody a good person. Somebody may say that they believe in Jesus, but if they have you tied up and they are planning to kill you, chances are they do not believe in Jesus. Their actions tell another story.​

4. Morality:

The "Grace alone + nothing = salvation" equation is the kind of belief that will lead someone to justify sin in some way (Whether that sin be big or small). Some have told me that they can mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and they would be saved while doing so. Others are more subtle and they say that they do not seek to sin but we are all sinners and we are not perfect. But yet, they say they are changed and different. While sinning less than one's old self is good, sinning less does not make one a better person. For they are still doing evil and thinking they are saved. However, the Bible says the fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. For it is why we have to strive by God's power to be completely sold out to God and His righteousness. If not, then we are serving two masters (God and sin). But Jesus says we cannot serve two masters, for we will hate the one and love the other. My prayer is that a person chooses to hate sin and love God. But only one's words will reveal their true heart intentions.​

As for belief in Jesus being a work of God:

Well, if Jesus says in His Word to believe in Him is a work of God, I choose to believe that and it is not my place to argue with Him.​

In any event, whether you agree or disagree, may God's love shine upon you this fine evening.

May you please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.
 
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dcalling

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Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

You only need faith and nothing else, because Jesus did all the hard work and only God saves, not your so called good work.

That is how the thief who did nothing but believed in God went to heaven with Jesus.

That said, real believers with faith will have actions in this world, otherwise your faith is not real, because real faith will have fruits in this world, unless you believed in the last moment of your life.
 
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