We are not saved by works?

[Neostarwcc]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

 

[Dave L]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit identified by faith in action. The Holy Spirit produces faith. Faith produces good works. So, no good works = no faith = no Holy Spirit.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit identified by faith in action. The Holy Spirit produces faith. Faith produces good works. So, no good works = no faith = no Holy Spirit.

That does make sense. But why would Paul say a person who has no works will still go to heaven. Also its possible to have faith but do no good works. You'd have to be a douche of a human being but its possible to believe yet ignore the promptings of the holy spirit.

 

[Chris V++]

The usual answer to the apparent contradiction is that faith by leads one into salvation by grace and the natural consequence of salvation is to do good works (bear fruit) and that if there is no fruit than the person was never really led by faith to the saving grace and was somehow deceived.

 

[Shempster]

Look at the Pharisees. They had the belief that following the rituals and observing feasts MADE them righteous. But as we know, Jesus said they appeared righteous, but in their hearts they were actually evil.
In the same way, we can appear to be religious by our practices and outward speech, but still be evil within our heart. Things like thinking we are better or superior to others. By thinking someone is bad or dirty because they do things we would never do. By defaming others. By calling them names. By looking at someone with lustful thoughts. By denying someone aid because we think they are lazy. By gossiping.
Things like that.
So it is entirely possible for us to think we are righteous by what we believe and practice and speak about, but God looks at out hearts, motives and intentions and how we actually treat others.
At the judgement, MANY who identify with Jesus and the Christian religion will be sent away.
Let that sink in for a min.

So to truly be born again, one must have a new mind which results in love towards all. It is not about identifying with him with words and religious trinkets, but rather identifying with the nature and character of Jesus himself...not an image created by man. For reference, read Matthew 5,6. This paints a picture of what that character looks like.

 

[Chris V++]

Lately I've been wondering if we are being premature in calling ourselves 'saved' since we are still alive. Aren't we supposed to 'finish the race' and not 'turn aside after satan.' I'm learning recently that not everyone accepts the 'once saved always saved' perspective.

 

[Dave L]

That does make sense. But why would Paul say a person who has no works will still go to heaven. Also its possible to have faith but do no good works. You'd have to be a douche of a human being but its possible to believe yet ignore the promptings of the holy spirit.

Here's how it works. If salvation is conditional based on meeting conditions (very popular today) then people trust in their meeting the conditions instead of Christ. So Paul discourages this, having us drop our trust in self to meet the conditions (that do not exists in the first place), and trust in Christ alone. Then really good works motivated by love naturally follow.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Look at the Pharisees. They had the belief that following the rituals and observing feasts MADE them righteous. But as we know, Jesus said they appeared righteous, but in their hearts they were actually evil.
In the same way, we can appear to be religious by our practices and outward speech, but still be evil within our hears. Things like thinking we are better or superior to others. By thinking someone is bad or dirty because they do things we would never do. By defaming others. By calling them names. By looking at someone with lustful thoughts. By denying someone aid because we think they are lazy. By gossiping.
Things like that.
So it is entirely possible for us to think we are righteous by what we believe and practice and speak about, but God looks at out hearts, motives and intentions.

That is so true! Well said!

 

[Neostarwcc]

Here's how it works. If salvation is conditional based on meeting conditions (very popular today) then people trust in their meeting the conditions instead of Christ. So Paul discourages this, having us drop our trust in self to meet the conditions (that do not exists in the first place), and trust in Christ alone. Then really good works motivated by love naturally follow.

I agree. And Paul does say in Ephesians 2:10 that we SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do but he never specifies that we HAVE to. And James and Jesus pretty much said that a Christians who has no works will be cut off.

 

[WESTOZZIE]

Can I also say --if our works are not done in love then those works shall be burned up yet we ourselves shall be saved yet so as through fire. Fire tests each one's works to see what they are made of.....and remember our God is a consuming fire....He will burn up the chaff in our lives and leave the pure seed which is Christ in us the hope of Glory.
If you have Christ you have assurance.....but if do not have Him ---no assurance.
But if you have Christ and make your works your assurance....then you are under law and shall be be judged by it.
Jesus Himself said the work I do I do not do of my own self...it is the Father who does them. We are in union with Jesus and Father by our S/spirit....and all that we do and say is He doing and saying as us.....
We think Fruit must be some special thing I must do for God.....but you will be surprised when you see that you were abiding in Jesus through HIS WORK and your very life before the world was Jesus to them....showing them the Father with how you are...just by being you....not by trying to bear fruit...or be nice....Christ in you the hope of glory....Christ in you the One who bears the fruit through Father in Him.

 

[Emli]

I agree. And Paul does say in Ephesians 2:10 that we SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do but he never specifies that we HAVE to. And James and Jesus pretty much said that a Christians who has no works will be cut off.

Think of it like this: you are born-again and you receive a new life in Christ. Your heart is renewed, your minds gets renewed and you crucify the flesh and start walking by the Spirit. Then what?

Jesus commanded us to work for His Kingdom. That should be our new lives in Him. If we leave our old lives and old ways behind (Matthew 16:25), and we become separate from the world, what is our purpose on Earth? Well, I'd say doing the works that God has prepared for us! If we don't come to this point where our lives are His and He is producing fruit in us, then our faith would be dead, because we wouldn't be living new, abundant lives in Christ. We would still be dead, walking in the flesh.

Nothing can stop me from doing the work God gives me, it's my life now. JESUS is my life. Since I gave up everything for God's Kingdom, what else could I do all day? That is what true faith in Christ should look like.

 

[expos4ever]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works.

I am highly confident that in Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is referring specifically to the works of the Law of Moses, not good works in the general sense. Paul, or whoever wrote Ephesians, is saying that salvation is not limited to those who the works of the Law of Moses - Jews. If you read verse 11 to about 16, this become abundantly clear.

Look at Romans 2:6-7 - a clear declaration that "good works" will indeed be the test for final salvation.

As for Romans 4:4-5, I think this is a metaphor that is not to be taken literally. More later about this.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Think of it like this: you are born-again and you receive a new life in Christ. Your heart is renewed, your minds gets renewed and you crucify the flesh and start walking by the Spirit. Then what?

Jesus commanded us to work for His Kingdom. That should be our new lives in Him. If we leave our old lives and old ways behind (Matthew 16:25), and we become separate from the world, what is our purpose on Earth? Well, I'd say doing the works that God has prepared for us! If we don't come to this point where our lives are His, and He is producing fruit in us, then our faith would be dead, because we wouldn't be living new, abundant lives in Christ. We would still be dead, walking in the flesh.

Nothing can stop me from doing the work God gives me, it's my life now. JESUS is my life. Since I gave up everything for God's Kingdom, what else could I do all day? That is what true faith in Christ should look like.

Best answer so far. How do we know the works that God has prepared for us though? Are we lead into them by the holy spirit?

 

[Emli]

Best answer so far. How do we know the works that God has prepared for us though? Are we lead into them by the holy spirit?

Yep, it's the Spirit that leads. In my life, they works kind of just happen "randomly" (from my perspective) during the day, or the Holy Spirit points me somewhere or to someone and I obey. Sometimes I have prayed for work to do, and sometimes they come when I least expect it. We don't have to try, we just have to go where the Spirit leads us and trust Him, then let Him tell us what to do and do it. But we do it in His power, not our own, and for His Glory, not our own, yet it is us who do them.

Jesus said that His sheep follow Him, and they hear His voice. His followers will obey His commandments, and live like He lived. His sheep will give food to the poor, visit prisons and care for widows, and everything else that He has told us to do, all done in love and by His Spirit. His followers will also do the mighty works that He did, and greater works than that. But we can do nothing without Him. So we let Him lead and follow His voice, because He has walked before us already.

 

[thecolorsblend]

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

So we need to be baptized.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.
1 John 1:9

So we need to confess our sins.

Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day.
John 6:54

This bit from St. John 6 speaks for itself.

Lol, "sola fide"...

 

[HTacianas]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

That Paul said we are not saved "by works" is one of the greatest misconceptions in Christian history.

If we read Paul in context, he does not say we are not saved "by works", he says we are not saved by the works "of the law". He clarifies to the Colossians what those works "of the law" are:

Col 2:20 - Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 - (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 - Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

It is not the "works" of Christianity that Paul opposes, such as acts of charity, which certainly are required, but the ritual works "of the law" that were required under the old covenant, such as the dietary laws and laws of ritual purity.

 

[Dave L]

I agree. And Paul does say in Ephesians 2:10 that we SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do but he never specifies that we HAVE to. And James and Jesus pretty much said that a Christians who has no works will be cut off.

The born again nature performs good works naturally in faith.

 

[Albion]

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

So we need to be baptized.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.
1 John 1:9

So we need to confess our sins.

Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day.
John 6:54

This bit from St. John 6 speaks for itself.

Lol, "sola fide"...

None of these ^ things are "works," however.

 

[Neostarwcc]

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

So we need to be baptized.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.
1 John 1:9

So we need to confess our sins.

Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day.
John 6:54

This bit from St. John 6 speaks for itself.

Lol, "sola fide"...

This is getting off topic but nowhere in scripture does it say that wee have to be baptized to be saved. Look at the last part of the verse. " But he who does not believe will be condemned" it doesn't say "those who do not believe and is not baptized will be condemned" it just says he who does not believe. Again nowhere in scripture does it say that baptism is required for salvation. Scripture says we SHOULD get baptized but it never lists it as a requirement for salvation. Nor does it ever say anything besides faith is a requirement. You could make the argument of works but not baptism or confessing of sins. Those things are extra and a part of faith. Plus works are a part of faith as well as other people have pointed out in this thread.

 

[thecolorsblend]

This is getting off topic but nowhere in scripture does it say that wee have to be baptized to be saved. Look at the last part of the verse.

The first part of St. Mark 16:16 (which your post is determined to avoid) links baptism to salvation. So do St. John 3:5, Acts 2:38-39, Acts 22:16 and other stress the need for baptism.

My point in mentioning it is that "works" is hardly ever defined in these discussions. But if "works" is defined as any type of action that isn't merely believing in Christ, baptism is a work and Sacred Scripture clearly expresses the necessity of baptism (among other things).

HTacianas is on the right track here.