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We are not saved by works?

Emli

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“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9)

All of the OT saints were born again.
No, they weren't. None of them were, because we are born-again into new life in Christ (see my previous post) and He hadn't yet come to us, nor died and rose again.
 
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Dave L

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No, they weren't. None of them were, because we are born-again into new life in Christ (see my previous post) and He hadn't yet come to us, nor died and rose again.
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 11 lists many of the OT faithful including Abel.
 
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Dave L

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All you want is a straight answer to a simple question. And yet, you're not getting one. Kind of frustrating, eh? Eh, Dave L? It's a little frustrating, eh?
Is that a loving Christian attitude?
 
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Dave L

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Which is completely unbiblical and impossible.
But please explain your views: how does one get born-again? Will you explain what you think being born-again means, how it happens and when?
How were you born in the first place? Did you choose to be? Did you have anything to do with it? It's the same with the New Birth. If you believe in Christ it is because you were first born again by God's grace.
 
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Emli

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 11 lists many of the OT faithful including Abel.
But no one was born-again in the OT. Having the Holy Spirit on you doesn't equate to being born-again. Every prophet in the OT had to follow the Law, they were not under grace. They were led by the Spirit, but they had not been renewed by the Spirit. One can have faith without having been born-again, because the Holy Spirit can work in you even if you haven't yet been born-again.
 
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Dave L

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But no one was born-again in the OT. Having the Holy Spirit on you doesn't equate to being born-again. Every prophet in the OT had to follow the Law, they were not under grace. They were led by the Spirit, but they had not been renewed by the Spirit. One can have faith without having been born-again, because the Holy Spirit can work in you even if you haven't yet been born-again.
They were circumcised in heart. It means the same as being born again. They both have the same definitions. Two different words for the same thing.
 
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Emli

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How were you born in the first place? Did you choose to be? Did you have anything to do with it? It's the same with the New Birth. If you believe in Christ it is because you were first born again by God's grace.
Not at all. God worked in my heart for two years, then someone prayed for me and I received a miracle. Then I prayed and Jesus responded in a miraculous way, the Holy Spirit manifested to me and spoke to me. He told me to read the Bible, and I studied Christianity for a few days. Then I gave my life to Him and I received the Holy Spirit and the nature. I was born-again. But I spoke to Jesus and believed in Him because I saw that He was real before that happened. I believed because I saw evidence of His existence, and after this I repented and I was baptised in the Spirit. How could I possibly have been born-again before any of that happened?
 
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Emli

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They were circumcised in heart. It means the same as being born again. They both have the same definitions. Two different words for the same thing.
No, they were physically circumcised.
 
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Dave L

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No, they were physically circumcised.
“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:28–29)
 
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Light of the East

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The born again nature performs good works naturally in faith.


If that were so, we wouldn't have so much of the sins and sorrows that infest the world today. The new nature, what St. Paul called "the new man in Christ" has to be disciplined. The new man in Christ is an infant and has to be trained in doing good.

The world is filled with people who have been born-again and who are living for the devil. It does not come naturally.
 
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Light of the East

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This is getting off topic but nowhere in scripture does it say that wee have to be baptized to be saved. Look at the last part of the verse. " But he who does not believe will be condemned" it doesn't say "those who do not believe and is not baptized will be condemned" it just says he who does not believe. Again nowhere in scripture does it say that baptism is required for salvation. Scripture says we SHOULD get baptized but it never lists it as a requirement for salvation. Nor does it ever say anything besides faith is a requirement. You could make the argument of works but not baptism or confessing of sins. Those things are extra and a part of faith. Plus works are a part of faith as well as other people have pointed out in this thread.

Moses tried the "faith alone" routine and almost got himself killed at God's hand. In the Old Covenant, if you were not circumcised, you were not part of Israel, had no part of the salvation which came with being in Israel, and were cut off from Israel.

Baptism, which has replaced circumcision as the ritual of covenant-cutting with Christ, is just as serious. Without baptism, you are not part of the Church, not entered into Christ (Romans 6:3) and are endangering your soul.

The idea of "faith alone" didn't spring up until 16 centuries after Christ and the Apostles. They taught that one had to be baptized to be saved. Who gave the Anabaptists the authority to change what Jesus taught?
 
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Emli

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“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:28–29)
That has nothing to do with what you just said. Please, read the entire chapter. You are just quoting random verses that are in no way proving your points.
 
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ExTiff

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God holds sins against all but those in Christ. And then they must first repent.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

So how does one arrange to be in Christ and repent of ones sins, if one first needs to be regenerate. And you still have not explained what you think was achieved at the cross. How do you interpret what St Paul says in my signature? "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us." 2 Cor. 5:19.

Does this text mean nothing to you? Do you deny its existence, question its veracity, have a sensible alternative explanation of what God was doing in Christ from the incarnation to the ascension and exultation at God's right hand? I believe that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them". What do you think was happening? Notice it is ALL in the past tense. Nothing about US having to do anything to make whatever God in Christ did, more effective. God did it all.

Or are you still saying WE have to DO something to make God forgive us?
.
 
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GardenLady

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When there are what appear to be inconsistencies between Jesus and Paul, I go with Jesus. (I say "apparent" because we all see through a glass darkly.) Jesus told us to keep his commandments, he told us to care for one another, he told us to give to the poor, welcome the stranger, etc. I take Jesus at his word. That that I think I can save myself through works -- salvation comes through Jesus. But he was clear as to what he requires of those who follow him.
 
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HisGraceIsAllYouNeed

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When there are what appear to be inconsistencies between Jesus and Paul, I go with Jesus.
I know this is a common view, but I’m not sure of its accuracy. For one thing, there are NO inconsistencies.

On another note, People like to say Jesus is preaching the gospel in the first four books of the NT. He’s not. Or rarely if he does. People like to go to the “Gospels” for church doctrine, when in fact what Jesus was doing was bringing the law, and in so doing, bringing people to the end of themselves. For example, after listening to Jesus’ parable (told in Matthew 18) about the man who owed 10,000 talents, which ended with Jesus basically saying “if you don’t forgive your brother as I’ve forgiven you, you will be cast into hell”—I don’t think the listeners were feeling so good. And if you try to apply that TODAY, what it comes down to is extreme confusion. Because...you’re saved ...but He just said if you don’t forgive you’re condemned...so you can lose your salvation? Which you can’t, so what does He mean?
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Before you were born again, you had only the flesh as a base to work from. Nothing in it would ever recognize the real Jesus much less want anything to do with him.

Prevenient Grace:

John 12:32 declares that all men are drawn to Christ.

John 16:8-11 we see that the ongoing ministry of the Spirit is to convict the entire world of its sin of unbelief (the suppression of truth cf. Romans 1:18-32).

Titus 2:11 clearly states that God's grace has appeared to all men but from this passage we cannot conclude that all men will be saved. Yet the grace spoken of here cannot be explained as simply a common grace. This is because the purpose of the grace spoken of was to bring people to salvation (something that common grace in Reformed thought is never said to do).​

Men can resist God:


Acts of the Apostles 7:51 we see Stephen tell the Jewish religious leaders that they were able to resist the Holy Spirit.

In Matthew 23:37, Jesus says,
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me." (NLT).​

Below are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith (Which means believers are not forced to be in a saved regenerated state):

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​


For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21). This is not something that is forced upon you, but it is your choice. Just as it was in the days of Joshua, we also have to choose this day in whom we will serve (Joshua 24:15).


Source used for the Prevenient Grace section:
Proof Texts for Prevenient Grace
 
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I know this is a common view, but I’m not sure of its accuracy. For one thing, there are NO inconsistencies.

On another note, People like to say Jesus is preaching the gospel in the first four books of the NT. He’s not. Or rarely if he does. People like to go to the “Gospels” for church doctrine, when in fact what Jesus was doing was bringing the law, and in so doing, bringing people to the end of themselves. For example, after listening to Jesus’ parable (told in Matthew 18) about the man who owed 10,000 talents, which ended with Jesus basically saying “if you don’t forgive your brother as I’ve forgiven you, you will be cast into hell”—I don’t think the listeners were feeling so good. And if you try to apply that TODAY, what it comes down to is extreme confusion. Because...you’re saved ...but He just said if you don’t forgive you’re condemned...so you can lose your salvation? Which you can’t, so what does He mean?

Nowhere does Jesus ever say that He warned people of hell by their sin just so as to show the point of how they could not keep God's laws. Jesus teachings did not contradict Paul's teachings. In fact,

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).


Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).
 
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