We are not saved by works?

[Bible Highlighter]

You cannot believe and repent unless you are born again.

No. The Bible says repent and be converted; And it is not the other way around.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" (Acts of the Apostles 3:19).

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

This is after one becomes a believer and receives the Spirit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I would say that being put with the unbelievers is pretty much counting out the possibility of winding up 'saved', wouldn't you? OSAS is a damnable heresy you know. It denies the necessity of perseverance.

Interesting, and I only thought Free Will Baptists believe this way. Before you suggested that a believer can sin while under grace (Which implies a believer can sin and still be saved on some level). But yet, you deny OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). This is what Free Will Baptists believe. They are all about a belief alone in Jesus for salvation, and they do not believe grievous sin does not always separate a believer from God. They believe it is a lack of faith or unbelief whereby a person can fall away. Is that what you believe, as well?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul shows us what the flesh is = you before the New Birth. And then he shows us what the New Birth is. Before you were born again, you had only the flesh to work with. It loves sin and hates righteousness (Christ).

I am not denying that we were children of wrath and that we once did not seek after God. No man can come unto Christ unless the Father draws him. But I believe God is able to draw us and awaken us to making the decision in choosing Him. For Scripture also says that Christ draws all men unto Himself. Scripture talks about the free will choice set before us. Scripture talks about a person resisting God.

And it could explain why you hate the Christ I represent.

Well, I have a distaste for the Calvinistic version of God because that is not what I consider to be the God of the Bible (When I read Scripture). God does not force His love upon anyone. Nor does God regenerate anyone beforehand based on what they would do if they were regenerated. Granted, God does awaken us spiritually so as to enable us the ability to choose Him or not. God's glory is not diminished if God allows man to choose Him of His own free will because He is making that situation possible by His power or drawing of grace. As I stated before, a coast guard still gets the praise for saving people's lives even if the people he saved had to cooperate in wanting to be saved. Do you hear Christians boasting in their decision in accepting Christ over what Christ has done for them?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have no interest in answering condemnations.

This was a condemnation of your belief that I posed to you with Scripture and it is not a condemnation of you.

In other words, if you think your belief has merit, then you should be able to explain those verses that appears to contradict your belief.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I think those four categories are supported by Scripture. Of course if we do look at it from God's perspective, there are only two categories: those who will be resurrected (who were chosen) and those who won't (who weren't chosen). Ultimately, that's what will happen. There will be the Kingdom of Heaven, and there will be Hell. But I think that we can safely separate people into other categories too, depending on why they will be saved and why they won't. Jesus did. Look at the parable of the sower and why the seeds didn't grow. Look at the sheep and the goats. Look at the "Lord, Lord"-people. Look at the 5 virgins without oil. There are always different reasons in Jesus' parables to why people aren't saved, different scenarios, different wisdom to learn from. It just proves that salvation isn't simply "believe and go to Heaven". There are so many, many parts of our walk with Christ that all has to fit together.


I agree with you. Also see Deuteronomy 8:3 and Matthew 4:3-4

But I also don't think that truth is something we only hear or believe, but something we do. James 1:21-22, John 14:21, Luke 11:28, Matthew 7:24.


Of course. We can't know everything, but that wasn't my point either. I do believe that there are a few things that we have to get absolutely right in order to have saving faith, such as believing in the Holy Trinity and surrendering to Jesus, giving up our old ways and following His commandments, but that we don't have to have an extraordinary amount of wisdom or understanding of theology etc.

Love is the greatest commandment anyway, which is also what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13. But I also firmly believe that our love means nothing unless it is founded on truth and that we love God first, and then love our neighbours and our enemies through Him. Because He is love and love is the fruit of the Spirit, without Him we can do nothing. And our love must lead people to Christ and give them true hope and not condemn them to Hell by giving them false comfort.


I think that you can be convinced for sure that they are NOT the incarnate knowledge of God.


I definitely believe that a lot of people from false churches will be saved, maybe even some in JW, depending on their personal faith and morals, not sure about any Mormons. Their leaders won't be saved, but maybe those who have been brainwashed and controlled by them will be?


Now you are talking about general faith. I meant faith in God specifically, like the Bible defines faith, which none of us can have unless God gives it to us. We cannot know Him unless He reveals Himself to us.

The faith that you have in let's say that the sun will rise, is because you have seen the sun rise every morning and you have learnt to trust in it. In the same way, you wake up in the morning and you pray and then you spend time with God and He takes care of you and your life throughout the day. You haven't seen Him, but you have learnt to trust Him. Because He has revealed Himself to you, which was not done by you, but by Him. You sought Him, because you responded to His calling. If He hadn't called, you couldn't have heard Him, and you never would have come to Him. Then you read His Word, which He gave to you, and He opened your eyes and explained what it means in the Spirit. Then He taught you what to pray and He responded to those prayers. Etc. In that way, all faith in God comes from Him and not from yourself. It's a gift from God. You have responded to it, but it's like He gave you a present and you chose to open it and accept what was inside it.

As far as I can see from what you wrote, we agree on a lot at this point in our walks with Him.

I especially and wholeheartedly agree with this statement you made: "But I also firmly believe that our love means nothing unless it is founded on Truth and that we [must] love God first [relative to the second great commandment, because the love we have to give flows out of Him], and then love our neighbours and our enemies through Him. Because He is love and love is the fruit of the Spirit, without Him we can do nothing. And our love must lead people to Christ and give them true hope and not condemn them to Hell by giving them false comfort."

I would really only differ on a few things:
(1) It sounds like you believe that only the chosen are called; I believe God calls everyone and those Scripture calls chosen are the ones who God foreknew would answer the call (like looking at two sides of the same coin). I would cite "Many are called, few are chosen" and the two verses that the universalists won't let me forget--that God desires "all" (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9). To claim such a desire, but to only make it possible for some, would be deception. And, God is not a man that He should lie. He doesn't have to. He's God! (As an aside: That was kind of my point in my earlier Sovereignty discussions. He doesn't even owe us an explanation. Honestly, we have no right, as created beings, to demand one. Who are we to think we have a right to hold God accountable? Sorry, but that's a hot topic for me, because some think they do. I just can't imagine that level of ignorance!) Back to the subject at hand.

He exposes/reveals Himself to everyone, allowing each and every one of us to accept or reject Him. So, I guess if I were to define it, I believe in "double prevenient grace," the first is the sacrifice which paved the way for all to be saved. The second is the one where God exposes Himself to each person individually in a way that gives us a legitimate chance to genuinely choose Him. I believe God already knows in advance who is going to accept Him and reject Him; but nobody will be able to say they didn't have a chance to choose Him--even if it was when "He was sick or in prison and they..." (like the sheep and goats or the rich man with Lazarus), though I can't say I understand the fullness of how He exposes Himself.

So, I don't believe the saving faith is something that is given before our choice to believe, but after. Just like, I don't believe the Holy Spirit is given before we believe, but after (even if it is almost instantaneous). But, I don't believe that means we can say we earned our salvation either. Without His double prevenient grace, we could have never chosen Him; so, none of us can EVER say we earned salvation.

Contrary to what some want to believe (I don't believe you are in that group I am about to mention): making a choice to accept the most amazing Gift IS NOT THE SAME as doing a work to earn that Gift; even though genuinely making that choice will result in works. On a much lower scale, if someone gives me a house or a car or a million dollars, my acceptance of any of those gifts in no way means that I earned any of those gifts which I would certainly appreciate, by the way, since they would make life here on earth much easier).

(2) With regard to false churches, God looks at the heart. I don't believe any who willfully choose to remain in what He considers critical false doctrines are saved (especially including the brainwashed and controlled, based on Jesus talking about "the blind following the blind into a ditch" and "making proselytes twice as much a child of hell as themselves" (Matt 23:15) and Rev 2 & 3. But, I believe there are many who are in those churches, but don't subscribe to all the stuff those churches teach/do (the overcomers in Rev 2 & 3).

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

If you consider people are born spiritually dead and cannot believe in the true Christ, but only in a false Christ or some other religious figure, then it makes sense that you must first be born again before you can discern and believe in the true Christ of the bible.

How on earth do you explain an Abram or a Noah or a Moses or an Enoch or Mary, mother of Jesus, or Daniel, or Elijah, or Isaiah, or...? Even the Apostles, including and especially the Apostle Paul, started choosing to obey Jesus before they were born again. Being born spiritually dead does not mean you cannot believe in the One True God when God calls you.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

You assume God doesn't save those who want to be saved. This is not true. He saves all who want to be saved and doesn't save any who do not. But love their sins more than they love him.

Do you read all that you write, Dave? Jason spoke exactly what you have stated you believe.

You are the one who over and over again says that nobody can choose to believe. You state that "believing" has to be given to them by God, otherwise we are somehow earning our salvation by the work of believing. THUS, in your theology, they can only believe if God allows them to believe. If they can only believe if God allows them to believe, that is unconditional (and random) election on the part of God--exactly as Jason described what you--over and over--claim to believe--because then God has chosen who can and who can't believe. If they can't believe, it is a necessary follow-on that they don't believe they need to be saved from what they don't believe in, in the first place. It has nothing to do with loving their sins more than Him, because they never had that choice. Instead, in your theology, they were sentenced to unbelief, through no fault of their own. They only had the choice to love their sins, because we were all born into sin. He never allowed them to choose to love Him in your theology.

Even in what you wrote above, you suggest they had a choice to love Him more than their sins; but you don't really believe they ever had that choice--based on what you said over and over. If you can't choose to believe, you can't choose to not believe, either.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

This is precisely why works (after being saved by God's grace) play a part in the salvation process. For we cannot be saved without works showing forth a true faith. So to say works does not play a part in the salvation equation is a contradiction.

Jason, I agree with a lot of things you share. But, I really struggle with this. If we are truly saved by God's grace (as you seem to suggest here), then how can works "play a part in the salvation process."
From what you seem to consistently describe:
(1) without God's grace none of us could be saved (I agree without reservation).
(2) You claim that works play a part in the salvation process, which seems to directly contradict your parenthetical claim of "after being saved by God's grace". (a) If saving is past tense done by God's grace, how can works have anything to do with the salvation process? (b) If necessary works follow to remain saved, were you ever truly saved in the first place? (c) Do you consider "saved" to be a more fluid concept that you can come to (based on God's grace) and then lose (based on your continued works or lack their of? Or do you believe that God's grace, while necessary, only opens the door to make salvation possible; but, that grace in and of itself doesn't save you.

Thanks for clarifying, so I can understand what you believe.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Well, I believe Scripture teaches that all three persons of the Godhead or Trinity work in a believer to do what is good and pleasing in His sight. For the Father works in the believer (John 14:23) (1 John 1:3) (1 John 2:13) (1 Corinthians 8:6), the Son works in the believer (John 15:5) (1 John 5:12) (Philippians 4:13) (Ephesians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit works in the believer (John 14:16) (Galatians 5:16) (1 John 3:24).

Seeing we are in the last days: I try not to mention the Holy Spirit too much because I have occasionally run into Christians who can sometimes say things that are not nice in regards to what I say. I wouldn't want them to accidentally speak bad words against the Holy Spirit like the Pharisees did with Jesus. Our salvation rests upon Jesus Christ and so I focus on Him in my talks with others when I use God's Word.

As for your claim that grace is not a person:

First, the Bible has homonyms in it. As you may know, homonyms are words that look and sound the same but they have different meanings.

For example:

The bark of the dog echoed up the tree at the squirrel who was hanging on the bark of the tree at the top near the branches.​

The word "bark" is the same word in spelling and pronunciation, but they each have two different meanings. These homonyms exist both in our English bibles and in the original languages. So the word "grace" can have multiple meanings in the Bible. The context determines it's use.

Second, while grace is an attribute of the Lord Jesus Christ because Scripture says He is full of grace and truth (John 1:14), this attribute is not something that is separate from who He is as a person. God is spirit (John 4:24). But the spirit is not distinct from who is as a person anymore than grace is distinct from who is as a person. Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by God's grace through faith, it is the gift of God. This gift is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that he GAVE His only begotten Son (John 3:16). Jesus said "I am the bread of life." (John 6:35). Jesus is speaking in spiritual terms. He is not saying he is actual physical bread. Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the LIFE." (John 14:6). In other words, Jesus is saying He is spiritual life (i.e. eternal life). 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. So a person needs have to have the Son in order to have life and they cannot be saved without God's grace because true believers are saved by God's grace (like a gift) through faith. So Jesus is the source of salvation itself. Jesus is the source of grace itself. Grace is embodied in a person. God's grace is Jesus Christ.

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." (Acts of the Apostles 15:11).

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" (Romans 3:24).

This grace is in Jesus for it is a part of who He is.

Paul was able to labour more than the brethren not because of his own working but because of the "grace of God" that was with him.

"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." (1 Corinthians 15:10).​

This "grace of God" is Jesus Christ. Jesus was the One who had helped Paul to labor more abundantly than His brethren. For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).



I agree with what you stated here.



I agree that Christians can stumble on occasion, but I also believe they can overcome grievous sin in this life (See 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:24, Philippians 2:15). Note: Not all sin is the same. There are sins that lead unto death (like unrepentant grievous sins like: Murder, adultery, theft, coveting, etc.); And there are sins that do not lead unto death (i.e. confessed sins or faults or minor transgressions) (See 1 John 5:16-17). For obviously going 5mph over the speed limit is not going to condemn a Christian to hell. But committing adultery will condemn a Christian to hell unless they repent (i.e. seek the Lord's forgiveness) which is then followed by the fruits of repentance (i.e. forsaking sin and doing good deeds by the power of the Lord working in them). A clear example of a sin not unto death in the Bible is baptism. For water baptism is not a command that if disobeyed leads to spiritual death (See 1 Peter 3:21 and compare the words "filth of the flesh" with similar wording in 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Again, I think there is a lot we would agree on, but there are some things we don't.

For instance:

(1) Jesus directly contrasted "believes and is baptized" with not believing in Mar 16:16. I don't think anything Jesus said was accidental. He didn't have to add the "and is baptized", but He did. And those who immediately followed Him certainly seemed to put a lot of weight on it in the Scriptures (Acts 2:38, 8:36-39, 9:18, and 10:47 for examples).

(2) Grace is an attribute/quality/characteristic. Is it right to conceal what the Holy Spirit (a person in the Godhead) does with an inanimate characteristic? I don't believe it is. For me, it borders on worshipping an attribute over the One with the attribute. Is it fair to the Holy Spirit to openly ignore Him? Should we do the same with the Father, because some people had bad human fathers? How do we not, then, also conceal Jesus, because some people have had a bad experience with some who profess Him or because the very Name of Jesus Christ offends them? If we believe The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit, can we believe that we can willfully conceal one and the others will be happy about it? it seems like They go about lifting each other up. The Father was more concerned about the Son, the Son was more concerned about the Father and the Holy Spirit. He suggested both were greater than Him. The Holy Spirit is more concerned about Jesus and the Father. Shouldn't we be upholding all to give God all the glory and honor The three Persons are due?

As you might guess, I don't believe in concealing the Holy Spirit, just like I don't believe in concealing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, because some don't believe they exist. How will people become free from the lies if not exposed to the Truth by people walking in the Light of the Truth? Isn't that what Jesus did? He didn't conceal the Truth. Sometimes He even chased people away with the Truth (John 6, for example). He certainly didn't follow today's church growth formulas! If I really love, I try to rescue from hell, not maintain a friendship right up until they enter the gates of hell for nobody knows when another's time is.

(3) I don't believe God thinks of sin the same way we do. A violation against love is grievous in His sight. But, unforgiveable is another situation.

 

[ExTiff]

Interesting, and I only thought Free Will Baptists believe this way. Before you suggested that a believer can sin while under grace (Which implies a believer can sin and still be saved on some level). But yet, you deny OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). This is what Free Will Baptists believe. They are all about a belief alone in Jesus for salvation, and they do not believe grievous sin does not always separate a believer from God. They believe it is a lack of faith or unbelief whereby a person can fall away. Is that what you believe, as well?

Interesting, and I only thought Free Will Baptists believe this way. Before you suggested that a believer can sin while under grace (Which implies a believer can sin and still be saved on some level).

You seem to be suggesting we lose free will the moment we get saved, or that any infringement of the law after regeneration will incur immediate loss of redemption and an irreversible decline into slavery to sin.

None of the above would be true according to scripture. I'm pretty sure that you will have sinned while under grace. We are ALL under grace, believers and unbelievers alike. God is no respecter of persons. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, not just a select few who claim Him to be their Lord, and some even of them will be told "I never knew you", when they actually meet Him face to face.

Believers can and do sin and are yet still saved on many levels. Sheep get lost, sheep get found again, and it is not because they used a compass and a road map. It is because the Good Shepherd goes out of His way to get them out of the trouble they have got themselves into by their own idiotic, sheep brained, stupidity.You and I are both presumably equally idiotic sheep, not clever goats, that apparently don't need rescue. Scapegoats survive in the wilderness.

"And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness."

But yet, you deny OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). This is what Free Will Baptists believe. They are all about a belief alone in Jesus for salvation, and they do not believe grievous sin does not always separate a believer from God.

I'm not a Baptist of any kind, as you can see from my profile, so I wouldn't know what they think about OSAS. I am of the opinion that OSAS, (as it is presented in many American churches), and the Rapture delusion, (a 19th c. optimistic American invention), go hand in hand down heresy lane, blithely ignoring or misinterpreting the scriptures and peddling false hope and cheap grace to the gullible.

They believe it is a lack of faith or unbelief whereby a person can fall away. Is that what you believe, as well?

I believe what scripture says: "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"

Sufficiently neglect such great salvation, and we will lose it altogether. OSAS or no OSAS. Jesus does not bring back dead sheep. Neither does He supply sap to dead vine branches. He cuts them off and they get burned.

 

[ExTiff]

This was a condemnation of your belief that I posed to you with Scripture and it is not a condemnation of you.

In other words, if you think your belief has merit, then you should be able to explain those verses that appears to contradict your belief.

I shall deal with your points one at a time if I may:

Well, I will mention it again that Jesus says in Matthew 6:15 that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. How can a person be unforgiven and yet saved? It makes no sense. In fact, in Matthew 5:28-30 Jesus warns us that to even look upon a woman in lust can cause one to be cast bodily into hell fire. Again, even after the cross: John warns us that if any man hates his brother he is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in Him (1 John 3:15).

I didn't say anything about 'being saved'. I quoted what St Paul wrote: "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us." 2 Cor. 5:19.

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them", and:

"Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man—though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Rom.5:7-8.

So it should be abundantly clear, even to you, that Christ died therefore, long before, you ever confessed your sins and presumptuously got yourself saved by thinking yourself suitably and convincingly, (to God), penitent.

What happened therefore during the conception, birth, life, ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and Exultation of Jesus Christ, had an enduring effect upon the entire human condition with respect to God and His disposition towards sinful mankind, (God no longer holds their sins against them), culminating in the crucial historical events of the crucifixion and resurrection of God's Christ.

Our 'repentance' is not the reason You, I or anyone else obtain God's forgiveness. We are forgiven by God because God is Gracious and no longer holds our sins against us, ever since God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself.

Ever since Christ ascended to heaven, we are in the ages to come right now:

"That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

It is Grace that provides Salvation, faith that obtains salvation, repentance and obedience that retain salvation.
.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I shall deal with your points one at a time if I may:



I didn't say anything about 'being saved'. I quoted what St Paul wrote: "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us." 2 Cor. 5:19.

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them", and:

"Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man—though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Rom.5:7-8.

So it should be abundantly clear, even to you, that Christ died therefore, long before, you ever confessed your sins and presumptuously got yourself saved by thinking yourself suitably and convincingly, (to God), penitent.

What happened therefore during the conception, birth, life, ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and Exultation of Jesus Christ, had an enduring effect upon the entire human condition with respect to God and His disposition towards sinful mankind, (God no longer holds their sins against them), culminating in the crucial historical events of the crucifixion and resurrection of God's Christ.

Our 'repentance' is not the reason You, I or anyone else obtain God's forgiveness. We are forgiven by God because God is Gracious and no longer holds our sins against us, ever since God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself.

Ever since Christ ascended to heaven, we are in the ages to come right now:

"That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

It is Grace that provides Salvation, faith that obtains salvation, repentance and obedience that retain salvation.
.

I don't sense from reading what the Apostles wrote that they believed they were "in the ages to come" right now, when they wrote that. But, if what you say is true that should have included them.

Paul was still writing "for now we see through a glass, darkly/dimly; but then, face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:12) I wish we were in that time now!

 

[Dave L]

Do you read all that you write, Dave? Jason spoke exactly what you have stated you believe.

You are the one who over and over again says that nobody can choose to believe. You state that "believing" has to be given to them by God, otherwise we are somehow earning our salvation by the work of believing. THUS, in your theology, they can only believe if God allows them to believe. If they can only believe if God allows them to believe, that is unconditional (and random) election on the part of God--exactly as Jason described what you--over and over--claim to believe--because then God has chosen who can and who can't believe. If they can't believe, it is a necessary follow-on that they don't believe they need to be saved from what they don't believe in, in the first place. It has nothing to do with loving their sins more than Him, because they never had that choice. Instead, in your theology, they were sentenced to unbelief, through no fault of their own. They only had the choice to love their sins, because we were all born into sin. He never allowed them to choose to love Him in your theology.

Even in what you wrote above, you suggest they had a choice to love Him more than their sins; but you don't really believe they ever had that choice--based on what you said over and over. If you can't choose to believe, you can't choose to not believe, either.

If we choose salvation, we rob God of his glory and end up saving ourselves. This is pure fiction and nowhere found in scripture. It is a frame work based on "free will" people place over scripture as they read and deceive themselves.

 

[Dave L]

How on earth do you explain an Abram or a Noah or a Moses or an Enoch or Mary, mother of Jesus, or Daniel, or Elijah, or Isaiah, or...? Even the Apostles, including and especially the Apostle Paul, started choosing to obey Jesus before they were born again. Being born spiritually dead does not mean you cannot believe in the One True God when God calls you.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. These all had the Holy Spirit before they did what they did, as a natural outworking of having the Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

I am not denying that we were children of wrath and that we once did not seek after God. No man can come unto Christ unless the Father draws him. But I believe God is able to draw us and awaken us to making the decision in choosing Him. For Scripture also says that Christ draws all men unto Himself. Scripture talks about the free will choice set before us. Scripture talks about a person resisting God.



Well, I have a distaste for the Calvinistic version of God because that is not what I consider to be the God of the Bible (When I read Scripture). God does not force His love upon anyone. Nor does God regenerate anyone beforehand based on what they would do if they were regenerated. Granted, God does awaken us spiritually so as to enable us the ability to choose Him or not. God's glory is not diminished if God allows man to choose Him of His own free will because He is making that situation possible by His power or drawing of grace. As I stated before, a coast guard still gets the praise for saving people's lives even if the people he saved had to cooperate in wanting to be saved. Do you hear Christians boasting in their decision in accepting Christ over what Christ has done for them?

You still end up being the savior if you chose Christ. If this promise is good today, so is the rest of the passage.

“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that remains, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you.” (John 15:16)

 

[Dave L]

No. The Bible says repent and be converted; And it is not the other way around.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" (Acts of the Apostles 3:19).



This is after one becomes a believer and receives the Spirit.

he's telling believing Jews to abandon the Old Covenant and enter the New. Unbelievers wouldn't do this.

 

[Dave L]

Prevenient Grace:

John 12:32 declares that all men are drawn to Christ.

John 16:8-11 we see that the ongoing ministry of the Spirit is to convict the entire world of its sin of unbelief (the suppression of truth cf. Romans 1:18-32).

Titus 2:11 clearly states that God's grace has appeared to all men but from this passage we cannot conclude that all men will be saved. Yet the grace spoken of here cannot be explained as simply a common grace. This is because the purpose of the grace spoken of was to bring people to salvation (something that common grace in Reformed thought is never said to do).​

Men can resist God:

Acts of the Apostles 7:51 we see Stephen tell the Jewish religious leaders that they were able to resist the Holy Spirit.

In Matthew 23:37, Jesus says,
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me." (NLT).​

Below are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith (Which means believers are not forced to be in a saved regenerated state):

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21). This is not something that is forced upon you, but it is your choice. Just as it was in the days of Joshua, we also have to choose this day in whom we will serve (Joshua 24:15).


Source used for the Prevenient Grace section:
Proof Texts for Prevenient Grace

You still force an interpretation on all of these passages based on the false doctrine of free will. If you read the passages on their own apart from that, you will know what they mean.

 

[Dave L]

You cannot be born again until you believe and repent.

Find anything here that will believe and repent:

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21)

Now, find anything here that will believe and repent:

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23)


Before a person is born again, they have only the flesh to work from.

 

[Dave L]

So how does one arrange to be in Christ and repent of ones sins, if one first needs to be regenerate. And you still have not explained what you think was achieved at the cross. How do you interpret what St Paul says in my signature? "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us." 2 Cor. 5:19.

Does this text mean nothing to you? Do you deny its existence, question its veracity, have a sensible alternative explanation of what God was doing in Christ from the incarnation to the ascension and exultation at God's right hand? I believe that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them". What do you think was happening? Notice it is ALL in the past tense. Nothing about US having to do anything to make whatever God in Christ did, more effective. God did it all.

Or are you still saying WE have to DO something to make God forgive us?
.

Salvation is a gift from God. You have nothing more to do with being born again than you did with your physical birth.

 

[Dave L]

That has nothing to do with what you just said. Please, read the entire chapter. You are just quoting random verses that are in no way proving your points.

You believed (were saved) before you prayed, or you wouldn't have prayed.