We are not saved by works?

[Emli]

Grace = undeserved favor. You deny this and think you deserve salvation

What are you talking about? Where did I state that the free gift of salvation is anything but unmerited?

How in the world could you get that from:
1. The Father calls an unbeliever, draws him or her to Jesus.
2. God gives faith to the unbeliever, through external circumstances and/or by working in his or her heart.
3. The unbeliever becomes a believer, which is the work of God.
4. The believer repents, which is a choice that he or she makes. God forces no one. But the act of repentance, the metanoia, the change of heart, is the work of the Holy Spirit. Free gift.
5. The believer receives grace through faith and gets born-again, also the work of God. Free gift.
6. The believer has now been justified and has received the free gift of salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit.
7. The Holy Spirit sanctifies the believer throughout the rest of his or her life, as a free gift, as long as the believers keeps running the race, because not all will finish the race. Because God forces no one. That is why salvation is called a gift. It is something that God gives us, not something that He forces on us. We don't need to work for the gift, but we have to keep accepting it.

Now where did I deny that grace is unmerited favor? No one has questioned this, only the order in which you claim that God works in us to save us.

 

[Dave L]

What are you talking about? Where did I state that the free gift of salvation is anything but unmerited?

How in the world could you get that from:
1. The Father calls an unbeliever, draws him or her to Jesus.
2. God gives faith to the unbeliever, through external circumstances and/or by working in his or her heart.
3. The unbeliever becomes a believer, which is the work of God.
4. The believer repents, which is a choice that he or she makes. God forces no one. But the act of repentance, the metanoia, the change of heart, is the work of the Holy Spirit. Free gift.
5. The believer receives grace through faith and gets born-again, also the work of God. Free gift.
6. The believer has now been justified and has received the free gift of salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit.
7. The Holy Spirit sanctifies the believer throughout the rest of his or her life, as a free gift, as long as the believers keeps running the race, because not all will finish the race. Because God forces no one. That is why salvation is called a gift. It is something that God gives us, not something that He forces on us. We don't need to work for the gift, but we have to keep accepting it.

Now where did I deny that grace is unmerited favor. No one has questioned this, only the order in which you claim that God works in us to save us.

Point one misses the mark completely. God saves us in the New Birth and the rest follows.

 

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[ExTiff]

Before you were born again, you had only the flesh as a base to work from. Nothing in it would ever recognize the real Jesus much less want anything to do with him.

Plenty of people wanted to know the real Jesus when He walked the earth in Galilee. What is so different now?

 

[Emli]

Before you were born again, you had only the flesh as a base to work from. Nothing in it would ever recognize the real Jesus much less want anything to do with him.

What about everyone who believed in Jesus before He died and rose again, before the Holy Spirit was sent to us?

 

[Emli]

Point one misses the mark completely. God saves us in the New Birth and the rest follows.

Not according to Scripture. What about John 6:44?

How did you get born-again? What is your testimony?

 

[ExTiff]

Point one misses the mark completely. God saves us in the New Birth and the rest follows.

True but jargon. The cross has to come first in everything. No new birth is possible without God no longer holding sins against us. God's grace precedes everything, even the cross.
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[Emli]

I wonder what the world would be like if the new birth came before faith. Blind people walking around, no knowledge of Christ whatsoever, then God just zaps people randomly and says to them "here's Jesus, congratulations, you are now a Christian!"???

It feels blasphemous to me to even think like that, because it would turn God's glorious plan for mankind into chaotic madness.

 

[Dave L]

True but jargon. The cross has to come first in everything. No new birth is possible without God no longer holding sins against us. God's grace precedes everything, even the cross.
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God holds sins against all but those in Christ. And then they must first repent.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

 

[Dave L]

Not according to Scripture. What about John 6:44?

How did you get born-again? What is your testimony?

You need to be born again before God draws you to Christ.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[Dave L]

What about everyone who believed in Jesus before He died and rose again, before the Holy Spirit was sent to us?

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9)

The saints from Abel on all had the Holy Spirit, not the gifts however, they were unique to Pentecost.

 

[Dave L]

Plenty of people wanted to know the real Jesus when He walked the earth in Galilee. What is so different now?

Only the born again recognized him for who he was. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

Is there a reply I can give that will result in a thoughtful response from you rather than the usual copypasta nonsense?

I would like to see what you believe about salvation,

 

[Emli]

You need to be born again before God draws you to Christ.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

How would a person be born-again before being drawn to Christ, when we cannot be born-again unless we give our lives to Christ??? What you are saying is an absolute impossibility.

 

[Light of the East]

That does make sense. But why would Paul say a person who has no works will still go to heaven. Also its possible to have faith but do no good works. You'd have to be a douche of a human being but its possible to believe yet ignore the promptings of the holy spirit.

You answer lies in Galatians and Acts 15. The "works" of which Paul was speaking were the Old Covenant works of the Jewish Law, especially circumcision. Paul spent his whole life fighting the "Judaizers" who insisted that in order to be really saved, one had to observe the works of the law, with special emphasis on being circumcised.

I believe that when Paul spoke of not doing works, it was in connection with this early heresy that circumcision was necessary.

The works of Matthew 25 are those deeds which are part of our theosis, or being changed into the likeness of Christ. As we do them, we are changed from sinful and selfish people to loving and giving people. The works we do, such as fasting, prayer, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the orphan and widow, are a cure for the spiritual sickness of sin which infests us. They are like medicine, and wise is the man who has a spiritual director who can tell him what works to do, and then obeys and does those works in order to heal his soul.

Works of the Jewish Law do not and could not save. They pointed to Christ, especially circumcision. Works of charity, however, save us in that they make us participants in Christ's self-sacrificial life and heal our souls Matthew 25 appears to be showing the end result of those who did and did not do corporal and spiritual works of mercy - the one who grew into Christ and entered into blessedness, and the other who, like the rich man, lived only for himself and inherited the wind.

 

[Emli]

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9)

The saints from Abel on all had the Holy Spirit, not the gifts however, they were unique to Pentecost.

Only the born again recognized him for who he was. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

No one was born-again before Jesus died and rose again, because His death and resurrection is what made the new birth possible. We die with Him as we are crucified with Him, and we are born-again into new life with Him as He was resurrected, thanks to the finished work on the Cross. So no one could have been born-again until after Jesus rose again, or before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came.

 

[Dave L]

How would a person be born-again before being drawn to Christ, when we cannot be born-again unless we give our lives to Christ??? What you are saying is an absolute impossibility.

You cannot give your life to Christ unless you are first born again.

 

[Dave L]

No one was born-again before Jesus died and rose again, because His death and resurrection is what made the new birth possible. We die with Him as we are crucified with Him, and we are born-again into new life with Him as He was resurrected, thanks to the finished work on the Cross. So no one could have been born-again before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came.

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9)

All of the OT saints were born again.

 

[Emli]

You cannot give your life to Christ unless you are first born again.

Which is completely unbiblical and impossible.
But please explain your views: how does one get born-again? Will you explain what you think being born-again means, how it happens and when?

 

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