Water canopy check, and mate!

[Nathan Poe]

Known by the facts of the bible, and science. We know it reaches us, therefore it could not always have been the physical universe only variety. We know light reaches us, just as it did Adam. It could reach neither if it took billions of years to get here, according to the bible timetable of several thousand years.

The Bible has no timetable, unless you're stuck in the Ussher-only Box.

 

[Stan the Man]

The point I was making about being made like Christ as opposed to being made like angels is that you were making a statement which lessens the awesomeness of what will happen - to be made like Christ is far more amazing than being made like angels.

But since you are obsessed with the whole marriage/sex topic...

they can fly, disappear, etc., and so will we be able to

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that - give me a chapter and verse for this statement or else you are in error regarding Scripture.

That's one described! I don't expect we will have the same exact relationships there as here, like He said. Things will be so sinless and wonderful, unselfish, diseaseless, and free, we won't need some exclusive arrangement, in the same way man now does!

No, it is the way the union of Christ with his church is expressed - check out Hosea or the Song of Solomon, the language used describes the intimacy which will exist between God and those he justifies - the most intimate union which we as humans know is that of making love within the boundaries of marriage - it's showing that the relationship between God and his people will be completely intimate.

Matt 22:29-30

29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage"

Now as much as you may attempt to dismantle what I have already said, you cannot deny what is spoken in Scripture, unless you which to put yourself in the category of heretic (which I suspect you don't want to do) - therefore, this passage destroys your claims about marriage in heaven - the only reason marriage is mentioned in describing heaven is showing the perfect unity which will exist between God and his people; any notion of other unions is purely speculation, and not supported by Scripture.

I have to say that if you are not on target on these biblical issues, how can tertiary issues like the canopy be argued convincingly? Easy! If the physical was not all there was or will be, it is wonderfully, and entirely possible!

You misunderstand me. I mean that if you are not correct in your reading of Scripture on issues which are talked about clearly, you are not going to be correct in your reading of Scripture on more complicated (and less important) issues. We're called t preach the gospel, not spend all our time on the tertiary issues:

Romans 10:6-15

6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Salvation is more important than creation, and the Gospel more important than debate - if your objective in this discussion is to merely prove yourself right and others wrong, you've missed the point of witness.

 

[dad]

Wow, 10 messages in a row that I couldn't see.... Blissful silence

Can someone who hasn't put dad on their ignore list let me know if he actually says anything which makes sense in future, as I'm just assuming it's all pointless from here on out

Sorry you can't take it, and have nothing to say, except hoping for ignorance support, and company

 

[dad]

You're making this all up, aren't you?

No I had a thread where it was brought out. They now put at least a part of the OT older than the dead sea scrolls. (Moses' prayer, about, 'make His face to shine on you'-etc.

 

[dad]

The Bible has no timetable, unless you're stuck in the Ussher-only Box.

Actually, the dates are given of the generations right from Adam. This brings us up to about Solomon's time, (known history). As I have said before, there is a small, insignificant (because it is some hundreds of years only) possible variation. (Like when someone left a city, if it was before or after his son was born-etc).
The only way I understand one can try to keep the bible, as well as old ages, is to either disrespect it's dates, dismiss it as sort of fairy tales, or whatnot, or mind bending compromise contortionist excercises, like trying to say a day is a billion years, or some such nausia.

 

[dad]

The point I was making about being made like Christ as opposed to being made like angels is that you were making a statement which lessens the awesomeness of what will happen - to be made like Christ is far more amazing than being made like angels.

I was talking in most threads here about the spirit world, and the difference between the physical, and the spiritual. Not about some doctrinal hair splitting vaugue difference in Jesus and our new bodies, and that of the spiritual creations know as angels. I don't think anyone would have thought I meant we would be angels.

But since you are obsessed with the whole marriage/sex topic...

? I only touched on in in replies to other posts. I am happy, however, to have it set me apart from those of a churchy bend.

they can fly, disappear, etc., and so will we be able to





Nowhere in Scripture does it say that - give me a chapter and verse for this statement or else you are in error regarding Scripture.

Spirits can do all these things and a lot lot lot lot lot lot lot lot lot lot lot more. Jesus flew up into the clouds. Angels 'appeared' to men, and dissapeared, as did the ressurected Jesus to those, for example in a room. It says we will be like Him, after the rapture, so why would we not also be able to do these things? You sound a touch trigger happy on the accusitory tone here.

No, it is the way the union of Christ with his church is expressed - check out Hosea or the Song of Solomon, the language used describes the intimacy which will exist between God and those he justifies - the most intimate union which we as humans know is that of making love within the boundaries of marriage - it's showing that the relationship between God and his people will be completely intimate

Maybe I should check out how many wives Solomon had, as well as his song? Hosea married a harlot, so that's no perfect example of chastity either. And on it goes. The boundries of theis sinful world, including marriage will not, of course be the same. I never said there was marriage like here did I? By the way, where do you think those heavenly kids came from?

....this passage destroys your claims about marriage in heaven

????? I said Jesus is getting married, what claims are you talking about? Not the children and sex I hope?

any notion of other unions is purely speculation, and not supported by Scripture.

Seems to me kids require some form of getting together, even if it isn't like our present monogomous marriages. So-- if scripture talks of children, it does lend support to people having them. Also, as I said, the angels came down, had sex with the daughters of men, and had giant babies as a result, you'll just have to deal with it.

We're called t preach the gospel, not spend all our time on the tertiary issues:

So, we should lay down, and accept old ages, random appearing lifeforms, a fairy tale God, and bible, and simply read only a small section of mark? Jesus talked of the time of the garden, and also Noah, how they were 'swept away' etc. Maybe you oughta get down in prayer, and slap His wrist here as well?

6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Good stuff. Atheists and evos, you got all that?

Salvation is more important than creation, and the Gospel more important than debate - if your objective in this discussion is to merely prove yourself right and others wrong, you've missed the point of witness.

Yes it is more important. But see how much you can squeeze into a science forum! As far as proving others wrong, why, if it's those who offend His beloved little children with doctrines of devils, and evoistic tales designed to replace the truth of God, why, heavens, you wouldn't expect one to take it up the tailpipe there would you now?

 

[Stan the Man]

So, we should lay down, and accept old ages, random appearing lifeforms, a fairy tale God, and bible, and simply read only a small section of mark? Jesus talked of the time of the garden, and also Noah, how they were 'swept away' etc. Maybe you oughta get down in prayer, and slap His wrist here as well?

No, nor have I said anything of the kind. Which is more important - that people hear the gospel, or that people accept a particular theory about how things came into being?

But see how much you can squeeze into a science forum!

No need to squeeze it - there's not a ban on posting the gospel here - let it flow

I'm just saying if you want to make a point (like the one about angels, or sex after the resurrection, or whatever), you need to say which chapter and verse, not just "it says in the bible" - in the same way as when someone talks about a scientific piece of evidence you expect them to cite accurately, not just make a vague assertion

 

[dad]

No, nor have I said anything of the kind. Which is more important - that people hear the gospel, or that people accept a particular theory about how things came into being?
[ I'd say He already laid out how things came to be-He created them. This is pretty basic. Basic enough for a creation versus evoism forum, anyhow. I don't hear you railing on the compromise theory types?]



No need to squeeze it - there's not a ban on posting the gospel here - let it flow
[I have talked about asking Jesus into one's heart on a number of occasions here. Mainly, I concentrated on illustrating evolution is a belief, and that, actually, the spiritual has more evidence than granny or the speck!]

I'm just saying if you want to make a point (like the one about angels, or sex after the resurrection, or whatever), you need to say which chapter and verse, not just "it says in the bible" - in the same way as when someone talks about a scientific piece of evidence you expect them to cite accurately, not just make a vague assertion [Fair enough. On the other hand, when I bring out the devision, or split in the days of Peleg, you have a responsibily to give biblical reason you think it couldn't be. As far as jesus appearing in a room to His deciples, flying up to heaven, etc. -that is not of great question, I don't think as to whether it's in the bible. So again, if you dispute it, you provide reasons. Same with the sons of God, who saw the daughters of men, that they were fair, and had children with them, if you have something to say, don't pretend I make this stuff up, come out with it, man. Same as I have provided chapter and verse as to how the sun will be forever, if you disagree, prove it, like I did! Etc. I know wherof I speak.]

.

 

[Stan the Man]

I wasn't disputing whether or not these things happened in Scripture, I'm asking for a chapter an verse (which would need to come from either one of the prophets, or from the new testament) to suggest that this will again be the case, or rather, that it will be the case for us at the creation of the new heavens and the new earth.

 

[dad]

I wasn't disputing whether or not these things happened in Scripture, I'm asking for a chapter an verse (which would need to come from either one of the prophets, or from the new testament) to suggest that this will again be the case, or rather, that it will be the case for us at the creation of the new heavens and the new earth.

1Co 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, [Goodbye decay rates!] and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
If this were a physical only body we would not last forever, this we know.
Dan 12: 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."
So the sun and stars also will last forever, as we do, this requires a merge.
Rev 22:8 "And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."
So we have this now heavenly angelic appearing man coming all the way down to earth to speak to John. This is not possible in the physical only either!
Rev 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth"
Here it makes clear we will then rule the world.
Rev 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, ......" So yes, angels can fly, in case that was a sticker.
1Jo 3:2 - "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. "
So we shall be like He is, in His ressurected, eternal body. Again, without a merge with the spiritual, this is impossible!
Mt 17:3 -"And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. "
So even mere men like us will do some appearing!
Mr 16:12 -"After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. "
&
Mr 16:14 -"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. "
So, like Jesus also, this spiritual trait will exist for us.
...Oh, in case anyone doubts that we will of course also be able to dissappear, ..
Lu 24:31 - "And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. " !
Re 21:1 - "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;.."
The new one will look different! Then we'll see the real, whole picture, and not some physical only, time bound, partial version!
Now, to pinpoint when this fire will burn the surface of earth, and some rebels, here is the timetable.
Rev: 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
But elsewhere we know that the earth will be forever, so it could not possibly mean the whole ball here at all.
Just look at the very next chapter here, where we now see revealed the new earth!!! With, as already covered, us as the rulers!
..To really catch the key of what is going on here, read this.
Rev 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new..." This is when the physical only will be forever gone, and all made new, even the earth.
..And, in the grand finale chapter, Rev 22:5 we see now on this very earth made new we are ruling. "and they shall reign for ever and ever."
I could go on, but that should be a mouthful to chew on for now.

 

[Stan the Man]

I already said we would rule - that was why I said there needed to be a distinction between becoming like angels and becoming like Christ.

Never said angels couldn't fly - asked why that means that we will, since we will be like Christ, not like angels.

And reference to Elijah and Moses with Jesus shows nothing about whether or not we will appear in that way - that event was a fulfilment of God's promise to both Elijah and Moses that they would see the glory of God. It shows that it has happened - it does not show that it will happen.

All the things which happened regarding Jesus vanishing and appearing again prove nothing about whether or not we will do that - that was to prove that he had risen - we will not need to prove that to anyone.

 

[dad]

And reference to Elijah and Moses with Jesus shows nothing about whether or not we will appear in that way - that event was a fulfilment of God's promise to both Elijah and Moses that they would see the glory of God. It shows that it has happened - it does not show that it will happen.]

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:


Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
So both Jesus on earth, and us were made a little lower than angels (although we will judge them!) Now God is no respecter of persons, and it would not seem right that Moses, some fellowservant of ours, or Elijah would have a certain kind of spiritual body, and it's powers, while as we would have some other type, of the which I don't see anywhere in the bible? Can you offer scriptural proof only some can appear, etc? No. You can not, because the idea is not supportable.

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

See, it wasn't just a few like Moses who were brought to glory, it was many! Including us--

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Never said angels couldn't fly - asked why that means that we will, since we will be like Christ, not like angels.

But didn't I point out Jesus ascended (flew) up into heaven? And now I also will point out that He will lead the armies of heaven at the battle of Armageddon in a succesful invasion of planet earth, flying down from the sky!

All the things which happened regarding Jesus vanishing and appearing again prove nothing about whether or not we will do that - that was to prove that he had risen - we will not need to prove that to anyone.

Why must we assume some eunuchized, far away, cold, impersonal reading of some of the bible here? Either we will, as you said, be like Him, or not. He did those things. Where can you prove He only did them to prove He was alive? I beleive He appeared here for something like over a month, sometimes often to the same people. That arguement cannot hold true at all. Thats just the way we do things as spirits, for us in the physical only still, then, the way we will do things.

Oh, I noticed a definition for 'devision' to see if it would fit for Gen 10:25. It does, like a glove.

to divide, split

(Niphal) to be split, be divided

(Piel)

to split, cleave

to divide
!!!

 

[Numenor]

Ge 3:8 - And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. So much for your theory

So much for your biblcal interpretation. God is a spirit, just ask Jesus, he was the one who said it.

 

[dad]

Ge 3:8 - And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. So much for your theory

So much for your biblcal interpretation. God is a spirit, just ask Jesus, he was the one who said it.

Shows how much you know about spirits. They can walk!

 

[Numenor]

Shows how much you know about spirits. They can walk!

Shows how much you know about Christ's teaching. Do you even know what a spirit is?

 

[dad]

Shows how much you know about spirits. They can walk!

Shows how much you know about Christ's teaching. Do you even know what a spirit is?

Where does Christ's teachings tell us spirits can't walk? Nice try.

 

[Aron-Ra]

Is it just Dad? Or have their been other creationists who like to declare "check and mate" despite the fact that they're only playing with checkers?

 

[dad]

Is it just Dad? Or have their been other creationists who like to declare "check and mate" despite the fact that they're only playing with checkers?

I think you may be playing chinese checkers, and have lost many of your marbles. If you think you have some moves, let's see them. You don't, so I can enjoy the little attempts at acting superior, and talking big from an opposition is disarray who can muster nothing else!

 

[DJ_Ghost]

I think you may be playing chinese checkers, and have lost many of your marbles. If you think you have some moves, let's see them. You don't, so I can enjoy the little attempts at acting superior, and talking big from an opposition is disarray who can muster nothing else!

They muster lots but you ignore it.

Ghost

 

[Stan the Man]

Translation of Genesis 3:8 does indeed talk about God walking in the garden - both in the hebrew, and the greek, and NIV translation.