Water Baptism is not a command in scripture

[Ave Maria]

3. Baptism is a symbol, not only of the death, burial, and resurrection, but also of individual rebirth.

Baptism is not just a symbol. It also washes away our sins.

 

[Schroeder]

I did not mean to imply you were being rude, just not really using Quaker terminology.

Have your ever read any of Richard Foster's(he is a Evangelical Quaker author) books? I love his book on Prayer! His writings are very ecumenical and appeal to people from many denominations.

Peace be with you...Pam

No i have not, but may look it up Prayer is not my strong suit. Did he write a book on discipline. Quaker should appeal to most denom, it is very simple, we just dont add anything unnessecary to our christian life that may hinder our Spirtual walk with Christ. It is not a easy way to practice christianity though it is simple. We want to much to have a part in how to do it instead of letting christ walk us through it. Though there are many who can and do that are not quakers. I think it is the right way because it makes you focus only on Him and others and not things you do.

 

[Schroeder]

Baptism is not just a symbol. It also washes away our sins.

HOW? Scriptures clearly says the Blood oh Christ washes our sins away, the Holy Spirit washes our sins away. Water is never mentioned as being able to do that.

 

[mysteryman]

remember, JESUS regained his blood, and walked to tell of it and returns with more blood. Too mmuch emphasis put on the blood that was for the moment to terminate the sacrifices. When you read the four books and revelation you hear Jesus and life and how to walk in his life , he set the standard and said to overcome the sins of the world and walk in the paths of righteousness , narrow is the gate. _____________ and pity the rich man , who is attached , so what is itthat Jesus says shall happen? God's promise to be filled,. think on it, for the kingdom of God is on hand when you see the son. Will you be atttached to all you wealth and your possessions or will you "STAND BY YOUR MAN"?_______________________________ A NEW HEART AND A NEW SPIRIT, HE WILL GIVE YOU._____________ ALL WATER IS UNDER THE BRIDGE, BUT AND IF THERE HAPPENS TO BE WATER IN THE IMMEDIATE AREA I PRESUME THERE WILL BE JOKES AND LAUGHTER WHEN HE SAYS 'LET'S GO FOR A PLUNGE AND KEEP THE OUTSIDE OF OUR BODIES WHOLE, FOR THEY ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOd' _________________ PEACE AND KEEP WRITING

 

[Kepha]

Who is the living water? and who is the Holy SPirit? Christ makes it clearly that to be "born of water and spirit" is to be "born again". how is one born again?

When Christ was speaking of water in that verse was He was referring to true and natural water. Just because He sometimes used water to symbolize Himself doesn't necessarily mean He was also doing it in that verse too. No early Church Father ever thought that verse to mean the way you want it to mean.

Justin Martyr

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian


"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus


"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).

The Recognitions of Clement


"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Testimonies Concerning the Jews


"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).

Cyprian of Carthage


"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Carthage VII


"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).

well if you read throughout scriptures, you'll see that upon believing and recieveing, you are saved.

No, if you read throughout Scriptures, you will notice that Baptism immediately followed someone who just started to believe.

If you read Acts 16 with the Jailor, you will see that the jailor was saved before, and then decided to get baptized in water. misinterpretation of the scriptures in John 3.

Sorry, when i read Act 16 the jailer and all the household Immdeiately were Baptised.

16: And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes, and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately

You saying they were saved first is just your interpretation as it would conflict with other verses throughout the Bible. To believe is the first act of obedience to His Graces an adult that will start you off in your walk with Christ. Baptism is the second requirement. Confession is another, Eucharist is another, etc.

Believing alone does not guarantee Salvation.

.

 

[Kepha]

HOW? Scriptures clearly says the Blood oh Christ washes our sins away, the Holy Spirit washes our sins away. Water is never mentioned as being able to do that.

Water is mentioned to do that however you make the water to mean something else.

 

[mysteryman]

remember, JESUS regained his blood, and walked to tell of it and returns with more blood. Too mmuch emphasis put on the blood that was for the moment to terminate the sacrifices. When you read the four books and revelation you hear Jesus and life and how to walk in his life , he set the standard and said to overcome the sins of the world and walk in the paths of righteousness , narrow is the gate. _____________ and pity the rich man , who is attached , so what is itthat Jesus says shall happen? God's promise to be filled,. think on it, for the kingdom of God is on hand when you see the son. Will you be atttached to all you wealth and your possessions or will you "STAND BY YOUR MAN"?_______________________________ A NEW HEART AND A NEW SPIRIT, HE WILL GIVE YOU._____________ ALL WATER IS UNDER THE BRIDGE, BUT AND IF THERE HAPPENS TO BE WATER IN THE IMMEDIATE AREA I PRESUME THERE WILL BE JOKES AND LAUGHTER WHEN HE SAYS 'LET'S GO FOR A PLUNGE AND KEEP THE OUTSIDE OF OUR BODIES WHOLE, FOR THEY ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOd' _________________ PEACE AND KEEP WRITING

 

[Schroeder]

Water is mentioned to do that however you make the water to mean something else.

Give me scripture to prove your point. It says absolutly no where that water does anything at all. Scripture never says water baptized past John the baptist. There are two baptism one is to continue the other to decrease. John the Baptist ministry was through his words and water baptism Christ ministry is through his words sacrifice and Spirit Baptism, John says so. That scriptual. The Church fathers is not real. There is only one Father and that is JESUS CHRIST. There are "church" leaders but NOT Church fathers or leaders. I go by scripture and the leading of the HOly Spirit not church leaders. I can listen to them and learn from them but they can only say what the scriptures say adding to them is wrong. To many are not taught by the Spirit but by denominations and colleges. Water does mean anything that is my point. It was used in the early Church and was to decrease as john said so and Christs ministry with the Spirit increase.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Give me scripture to prove your point. It says absolutly no where that water does anything at all. Scripture never says water baptized past John the baptist. There are two baptism one is to continue the other to decrease. John the Baptist ministry was through his words and water baptism Christ ministry is through his words sacrifice and Spirit Baptism, John says so. That scriptual. The Church fathers is not real. There is only one Father and that is JESUS CHRIST. There are "church" leaders but NOT Church fathers or leaders. I go by scripture and the leading of the HOly Spirit not church leaders. I can listen to them and learn from them but they can only say what the scriptures say adding to them is wrong. To many are not taught by the Spirit but by denominations and colleges. Water does mean anything that is my point. It was used in the early Church and was to decrease as john said so and Christs ministry with the Spirit increase.

Friend Schroeder,

When you say you go by scripture are you saying that you believe them as an finial authority?

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Give me scripture to prove your point. It says absolutly no where that water does anything at all. Scripture never says water baptized past John the baptist. There are two baptism one is to continue the other to decrease. John the Baptist ministry was through his words and water baptism Christ ministry is through his words sacrifice and Spirit Baptism, John says so. That scriptual. The Church fathers is not real. There is only one Father and that is JESUS CHRIST. There are "church" leaders but NOT Church fathers or leaders. I go by scripture and the leading of the HOly Spirit not church leaders. I can listen to them and learn from them but they can only say what the scriptures say adding to them is wrong. To many are not taught by the Spirit but by denominations and colleges. Water does mean anything that is my point. It was used in the early Church and was to decrease as john said so and Christs ministry with the Spirit increase.

Exaclty why scripture is not the final authority. The Chruch is.

Forgive me...

 

[Kepha]

Give me scripture to prove your point. It says absolutly no where that water does anything at all.

The verses were given. You will only twist it to mean the water symbolizes Christ only, but i shall give it anyways.

John 3:3-5: Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit.


Acts 22:16: Ananias tells Saul, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.

Titus 3:5-6 – 3 For we ourselves also were some time unwise, incredulous, erring, slaves to divers desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; 6 Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour:

Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with clean water. (speaking about water Baptism again)

Ezek 36:25-27 25 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them.

Here the Lord promises us He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian Baptism instituted by Christ


Acts 8:36:And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth hinder me from being baptized? 37 And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch: and he baptized him.

The eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Scripture never says water baptized past John the baptist.

What are you talking about? What do you think they mean when they say "And he went into the water and was Baptised"?

There are two baptism one is to continue the other to decrease.

Scripture please.

John the Baptist ministry was through his words and water baptism Christ ministry is through his words sacrifice and Spirit Baptism, John says so.

Incorrect. John the Baptist was symbolizing of what the importance of water will become through Christ. His was regular water. The water of Baptism after the Crusifixion is sacred water.

The Church fathers is not real.

Of course they existed. If your going to say this then you can likewise say theat the ones who passed along the Scripture for the first few hundred years were also not real.

There is only one Father and that is JESUS CHRIST. There are "church" leaders but NOT Church fathers or leaders.

You just contradicted yourself there.

I go by scripture and the leading of the HOly Spirit not church leaders.

You go by your own understanding of Scripture. Scripture doesn't speak to you. You interpret.

I can listen to them and learn from them but they can only say what the scriptures say adding to them is wrong.

To deny the Church perspective is to deny a historical account of how the early Church behaved. Show me where any christians thought as you did about Baptism.

To many are not taught by the Spirit but by denominations and colleges.

That is what you all say.

Water does mean anything that is my point. It was used in the early Church and was to decrease as john said so and Christs ministry with the Spirit increase.

You have no authority to tell me exactly what Scripture is telling me. You interpretate your way and i will follow the Church Guided by the Holy Spirit to interpretate my way.

 

[BlackSaab52]

If Scripture doesn't command water baptism, then how is this passage in Acts 8 explained?

34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. 36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[

f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

 

[Cliff2]

Exaclty why scripture is not the final authority. The Chruch is.

Forgive me...

This is why we have so many problems in Christianity?

The Bible is not accepted as the final authority.

Over the years the "Church" has made too many mistakes.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What is wrong with following Scripture?

 

[statrei]

Baptism is not just a symbol. It also washes away our sins.

Please. That would mean the pool or the river would be sinful after you have been baptized. Would it attach to people swimming downstream.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

This is why we have so many problems in Christianity?

The Bible is not accepted as the final authority.

Over the years the "Church" has made too many mistakes.




What is wrong with following Scripture?

What mistakes has the Orthodox Church made?

Just look at the variety of answers on this one subject.

There is only one Truth.

There is nothing wrong with following scripture as long as you have the word of the Church to go with it....

The scripture is a limited set of understanding written down as reminders and pointers... not as the exclusive and exhaustive authority on Christian life... it doesn't answer all the questions as the living Church does. These misunderstandings become clear as fresh water inside the mind of the Church.

Forgive me.....

 

[Kepha]

Please. That would mean the pool or the river would be sinful after you have been baptized. Would it attach to people swimming downstream.

No, it means the Salvic Graces from the Cross are conferred though the sacred water of Baptism. So again, your sin isn't literally washed away with the water but by Christ's Graces through the water.

 

[Cliff2]

Please. That would mean the pool or the river would be sinful after you have been baptized. Would it attach to people swimming downstream.

It is not the water that does anything to the person, it is symbolic of what the Holy Spirit can and will do in a persons life.

How is a person baptised in water?

They are lowered into the wayer on their back. This has done this way to signify that a person has died to sin and then are raised up to life by being brought up out of the watery grave of baptism.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Kepha]

This is why we have so many problems in Christianity?

The Bible is not accepted as the final authority.

Over the years the "Church" has made too many mistakes.

The Catholic Church has never errored in matter of Doctrine. There have been certain men of he Church that have behaved in a unchristian like manner but it has nothing to do with Dogmas handed down through the 2000 years.

 

[Cliff2]

What mistakes has the Orthodox Church made?

Just look at the variety of answers on this one subject.

There is only one Truth.

There is nothing wrong with following scripture as long as you have the word of the Church to go with it....

The scripture is a limited set of understanding written down as reminders and pointers... not as the exclusive and exhaustive authority on Christian life... it doesn't answer all the questions as the living Church does. These misunderstandings become clear as fresh water inside the mind of the Church.

Forgive me.....

Look at how the "Church" in general baptise?

In most cases it does not follow what the Bible says to do about baptism.

This is only one of the many mistakes that have been made over nearly 2,000

years.

 

[Cliff2]

The Catholic Church has never errored in matter of Doctrine. There have been certain men of he Church that have behaved in a unchristian like manner but it has nothing to do with Dogmas handed down through the 2000 years.

Just look at the dogma relating to heritics. They are now called "separated brethren".

A few hundred years ago they were worse than the worst, now they are somewhat acceptable, at least by some.