Water Baptism is not a command in scripture

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Baptism is just a sign of obedience towards God, I mean, you don't have to be baptized and can still be obedient towards Him, but he likes it if you do get baptized with the intention...

This is true... I would rather say "is a sign" for that is not all that it is.

We should not seperate the sacrement of Baptsim from the Holy Sacrements of the Church because we feel they are not needed...

This is how God decided he wished to be worshiped and revealed it to the Apostles and the Church has been baptising ever since.

Historicly it has been counted as one of Christ higher commandments.

Who said this:

"This one will not hear Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet"

Forgive me....

 

[sojourner]

Schroeder,

1 Cor 12:13 clearly says that we are united into the Church by the Spirit ... Baptized by one Spirit into one body. John 3:3 is not water and it tells you that in verse 6, born again of the Spirit NOT water. Rom6 and Col 2:12, 3:1 are of the Spirit, it alone saves and cleanses us Titus 3:5, Read romans 8 where it speaks of the Spirit bringing Christ from the dead and how as it did him so it will us. Rom 8:11

Yes, the Spirit does all the work. We don't place ourselves into Christ, we don't make ourselves regenerated, but the Holy Spirit does not act unless man permits Him to act. That is what belief and faith is all about. It is repentance, sorrowful, begging for mercy. Christ always acted through means. It is not that He cannot work only in a spiritual way, but He requires of us action or responsibility on our end of the relationship. Because we are not spiritual beings He uses physcial means to activate the Spiritual change.
this is indicative of the Gnostic tendencies of most protestants. They create a dicotomy between the physical and divine. The physical is worthless, non- participating. Yet, it is always the physical that is first and spiritual second. Paul states this in I Cor 15:46. This is true of the relation to the fall and redemption and our participation IN Christ.

We participated in his death and ressurection when we were saved, now it is time to live a life that will lead others to him. The One Baptism is of the Spirit which John the baptist said would increase over his water baptism and that he said Christ would do to you.

On the contrary. It merely is the entrance into the Kingdom is which you and Christ labor in working our your salvation. It is a process of being saved. You are either saved or condemned at the Judgement, not before.

The One Baptism is of the Spirit which John the baptist said would increase over his water baptism and that he said Christ would do to you.

It is not the baptism that will decrease or increase but the work of John the Baptist versus that of Christ. He was a forerunner, not baptism.

He is not discribing what water baptism is doing AT ALL, it is ridicules for people to believe that, water does not do anything to us Titus 3:5 shows that the Spirit baptism cleanses us and joins us into the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Spirit does it, but not without man's consent. It is man who is doing the believing, exercising his faith, who desires to repent and submits wholly, completely to Christ. Then the Holy Spirit upon baptism changes Him.

Baptism is the salvfic event in which the Holy Spirit operates in and through. So is confession, so is the Eucharist. So is the Church itself. They are all salvfic.

 

[angela 2]

this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with water

Do you have something to support this?

 

[8TarHeel8]

Hello people,

The following thread seems to explain the apparent contradiction concerning baptism better than I could:

http://www.christianforums.com/t878961-there-is-one-baptism-three-baptisms-for-us-today.html

 

[TwinCrier]

If there was a clear command for it it would be followed with hoiw it is to be done and why and such, please give all the scriptures that you say command it.

It was clearly explained in the link I posted. Baptism is a sign of obedience to the Lord, so refusal to follow this ordinance is rebellion.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It was clearly explained in the link I posted. Baptism is a sign of obedience to the Lord, so refusal to follow this ordinance is rebellion.

Not just a sign of our obedience, It is part of our obedience.

Forgive me...

 

[Mrs.Hodge]

Not just a sign of our obedience, It is part of our obedience.

Forgive me...

I agree with you. Just this past year, actually a couple of months ago My fiance and pastor went back and forth about this. He (my fiance) is/was a Methodist and they believe in Baptism as a child, but I believe that it's something done with a concious mind. Anyways, Jesus lived a life as an example for all of us. He lived humbly on earth and we all strive to live as humble as he did, why not follow Him in water baptism. IT's just a sign to the world that you do believe in the Lord and that you're not ashamed of Him.

 

[Mrs.Hodge]

Spiritual Baptism. When you ABC (Accept, Believe and Confess) the Holy Spirit Comes over you and into your life. Those your are baptised into a new life with the presence of the Holy Spirit. That's my belief.

 

[Llauralin]

Spiritual Baptism. When you ABC (Accept, Believe and Confess) the Holy Spirit Comes over you and into your life. Those your are baptised into a new life with the presence of the Holy Spirit. That's my belief.

IN the verse about "what must I do to be saved," why do you suppose that Jesus answerd that to enter the Kingdom of God one must be born "of water and the Spirit?

 

[PassthePeace1]

No were in scripture is this idea commanded, it was used, but only for a time, just as John the baptist said it would be, and Christ baptism would increase and his decrease. It is very misinterpreted by most all denominations and is a burdone, not because of its use but in how it is interpreted to be used and why and or how or when, none of which is ever mentioned in scripture, why because it is not a part of the Gospel message, Which is solely about Christ and his Spirit.

Thee would not by any chance be Quaker, would thou?


Sheesh, been awhile hope I pharsed that right..:o

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[KrazyEUro]

IN the verse about "what must I do to be saved," why do you suppose that Jesus answerd that to enter the Kingdom of God one must be born "of water and the Spirit?

Who is the living water? and who is the Holy SPirit? Christ makes it clearly that to be "born of water and spirit" is to be "born again". how is one born again? well if you read throughout scriptures, you'll see that upon believing and recieveing, you are saved. If you read Acts 16 with the Jailor, you will see that the jailor was saved before, and then decided to get baptized in water. misinterpretation of the scriptures in John 3.

 

[KrazyEUro]

Ooops

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

like stated earlier, this has nothing to do with Water baptism. If you read Peters letters, you would see that baptism in water is NOTHING MORE than a symbol.

1 peter 3:21

21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism into Christ is simply this, we made that conscience decision to follow Christ. As a Christian, we should want to get baptized into water because Christ said, "follow my examples"

I agree though, with the fact that baptism in water has nothing to do with salvation. Baptism in water does not save you like Peter says, but i believe as Christians, we should do it, to publically show the Church (body of Christ) the decision already made to Follow Christ.

 

[Schroeder]

The scriptures were never intended by the Church to replace the Church. Only a fraction of the Christian life is contained in Holy Scriptures even with our set which is larger than yours.

The Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church is the complete deposit of Faith as left to the Apostles. Verbally... of which the Church members wrote....and preserved most all documents of the full deposit of Faith. Much has been destroyed, but mostly just paper. Nothing real has changed... the Church is still here and has maintained the full Faith.

Forgive me....

That is true, but the Church is the baody of Christ, all his followers, not just those of the baptist denom or the pentacostal, catholic, orthodoc, and on and on, what they believe in there creeds or such is extra things they wish to do, whether right or wrong or needed or not, but they are are different from each other, so who is right. The SCRIPTURES are right, and i will stick with it completly for the TRUTH. If you wish to believe what you do that is fine, but do not say it is the only truth and must be followed to the letter for you to be a good christian. All the scriptures say to do is LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND LOVE THY GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, If I do those two i will please God greatly, if you want to add a lot of stuff on to that to feel that God loves you greatly then that is your choice.

 

[Schroeder]

Thee would not by any chance be Quaker, would thou?


Sheesh, been awhile hope I pharsed that right..:o

Peace be with you...Pam

Yes, but we do not speak like that any more, and i would say do not live up to what they used to teach either. We go by yearly meetings, which are all independent and believe in different ideas, some are not even christians, though they claim to be, they denie Christ. I would say i am a baptist quaker, conservative christian, I do not believe that water baptism or communion were commanded but dont teach against there use just how they are presented as being commanded.

 

[Schroeder]

IN the verse about "what must I do to be saved," why do you suppose that Jesus answerd that to enter the Kingdom of God one must be born "of water and the Spirit?

Do you not read thru the passages. Christ explains what he means by born of water. It is a physical birth, Born of Flesh, 3:6. Why do you think he says in verse 6 " Flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to Spirit. Nicodemus says right before that HOW can a person enter into his mothers womb, Jesus then says, OK, you must be born from the WOMB and then again BOrn again. How are you born again by the Spirit. Just as verse 6 says.

 

[Schroeder]

Do you have something to support this?

I believe you are or i was refering to Rom 6, which is grossly mistranslated by most christians as refering or discribing a symbolic action of water baptism. It is symbolic in a sense but yet not sympolic at all but is what actually took place upon our receiveing Christ Holy Spirit baptism. Rom 8 as i said says that the Spirit was with Christ at his death and ressurection and that it is whith us at our death and ressurection, though it was in a spiritual sense, It is a inward cleansing. We say that water baptism sympolises this, which could be true but there is no scripture that clearly says that that is what it is for. IF so show me. This passage is discribing what actually happens to us. verse 6. Verse 5 says we have been united with him like this in his death, so also his ressurection. LIKE THIS in that verse means it was done literally, but it was not physical it was spiritual. Christ baptism not Johns. He does NOT say before this passage that This is why we water baptize you, because it representes....., All of scripture clearly says we become INTO Christ through the Spirit not by a act on our part. Our only ACT is to believe on His Son John 3:16, 1 JOhn 5:10-21 is all that God requires period PERIOD.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Yes, but we do not speak like that any more, and i would say do not live up to what they used to teach either.

Well, as that fictional lovable man of the south often said "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!". It was in the wee hours of the morning when I posted that, and was just being silly. Didn't really think you were Quaker, because your manner of presenting your agruement is not Quakerish.

We go by yearly meetings, which are all independent and believe in different ideas, some are not even christians, though they claim to be, they denie Christ.

Sadly today, there is a universalist twist to Quakerism, but many are Christ-centered and do very much believe in the divinty of Chirst. George Fox and the early Friends sincerely believed that they were restoring the pratices of the New Testament Church. They often used the pharse "primitive Christianity revived."

I would say i am a baptist quaker, conservative christian, I do not believe that water baptism or communion were commanded but dont teach against there use just how they are presented as being commanded

Baptist Quaker? Sounds like an oxymoron, why do you use the word baptist? Would Evangelical Quaker be more accurate? There is an Evangelical branch of Quakerism, their beliefs are more akin to Wesleyan Holiness. Quakers were only against the "external rite" of the sacraments, not the internal, is that what you mean by your last sentence of that quote?

Peace be with you....Pam

 

[Schroeder]

Holy Spirit baptism that one receives when they first come to New Testament belief, is not implied in Eph.4:5

The water baptism (Jn.4:1-2, Mt.28:19) of Eph.4:5 is a result of the conflict Paul was having with so many disciples only familiar with the baptism of John. (Acts 19:1-5)

Do you not know that all of those mentioned are the same thing, same person. The body, Spirit, Lord, Faith, God, Father. They are all one thing LOVE, God is Love. You notice they are all spiritual or non physical. They are over all and through all and in all. There are two baptisms in scripture water and the Spirit, So which one is the one Baptism, it could only be Christs baptism. HAVe we forgotten about thise one. We have because we but so much emphases on water baptism, when it does nothing in way of changing or saving us. If you do it do it To show your church you believe in there purpose and believe in christ as your saviour. BUT the only way to TRUELY PROVE that you do believe is if you LOVE your neighbor and do has 1 John 5:10-20 speaks of.

 

[Schroeder]

Well, as that fictional lovable man of the south often said "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!". It was in the wee hours of the morning when I posted that, and was just being silly. Didn't really think you were Quaker, because your manner of presenting your agruement is not Quakerish.

Sorry if it sounds rude i dont mean to. I am trying to be straight forward. How would it be put as Quakerish. George Fox was not exactly kind in refering to what he saw in the Church. He was very straight forward which is why he caused so much trouble. Same as Christ. I dont wish to make others quite there beliefs just to know what the scriptures truely say and not what denom keep trying to make them say.

Sadly today, there is a universalist twist to Quakerism, but many are Christ-centered and do very much believe in the divinty of Chirst. George Fox and the early Friends sincerely believed that they were restoring the pratices of the New Testament Church. They often used the pharse "primitive Christianity revived."

Yes true i didnt mean to infer most quakers as non believers, but most dont compare to the early Quakers. Yes that was true Primitive Christianity revived, but the rivival is gone know. But i can try to bring it back. WE NEED TO SIMPLIFY because as a Church we are not united because it is to complex. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE, That all that needs to be taught. But it is to simple so we ADD ADD ADD.

Baptist Quaker? Sounds like an oxymoron, why do you use the word baptist? Would Evangelical Quaker be more accurate? There is an Evangelical branch of Quakerism, their beliefs are more akin to Wesleyan Holiness. Quakers were only against the "external rite" of the sacraments, not the internal, is that what you mean by your last sentence of that quote?

Peace be with you....Pam

Maybe so. We all teach the same principles just in different ways and add stuff not needed. I could be a baptist easily if they did not insist on the ordancies as commands. Water baptism and communion. But they do not emphisies it continually. At least the non denom baptist church i go to know doesnt. Maybe i am a non denom quaker, i think Im just a QUAKER through and through. Though i refer to myself as a Christian who agrees with the Quaker theology.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Sorry if it sounds rude i dont mean to. I am trying to be straight forward. How would it be put as Quakerish. George Fox was not exactly kind in refering to what he saw in the Church.

I did not mean to imply you were being rude, just not really using Quaker terminology.

Have your ever read any of Richard Foster's(he is a Evangelical Quaker author) books? I love his book on Prayer! His writings are very ecumenical and appeal to people from many denominations.

Peace be with you...Pam