A conversation about unity.

[ozso]

You err in asserting that the Catholic Church is merely a later offshoot of the original Church of Christ. In truth, the Catholic Church is that original Church, founded directly by Christ upon the Apostles, with Peter as its visible head: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church” (Matthew 16:18). This Church has endured continuously, not for 450 years, but from Pentecost to the present day, safeguarded by the Holy Spirit as Christ promised: “I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20). The notion that all denominations are equal descendants of an extinct Church contradicts both history and divine revelation.

One must distinguish between legitimate development of doctrine—guided by the Holy Spirit and affirmed by the Magisterium—and the invention of man-made teachings that contradict apostolic tradition. Saint Paul exhorted the faithful to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thessalonians 2:15). The Catholic Church has preserved these apostolic teachings through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the authoritative teaching office (Magisterium), as affirmed in Dei Verbum §10. Protestant denominations, by contrast, arose centuries later through schism and doctrinal innovation, often rejecting sacramental theology, apostolic succession, and the Eucharistic Real Presence.

To claim that Catholic theology is a corruption of Christ’s original teaching is to ignore the historical continuity of the Church, the witness of the early Fathers, and the promises of Christ Himself. The Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15), not a human institution subject to decay or reinvention. You are called not to relativise ecclesial truth, but to recognise and submit to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, through which Christ continues to sanctify and teach His people.

“Stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thessalonians 2:15) means what he and the other Apostles taught them. Not what others would teach them hundreds of years later. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 clearly speaks against added traditions, not in favor of them.

In other words if a theology, doctrine, practice, tradition was not directly specifically taught by Christ and His Apostles; that theology, doctrine, practice, tradition goes against what Paul told us in 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

In 1 Timothy 3:15 Paul speaks of the original Church which taught the original traditions taught by Christ and His Apostles, in conjunction with 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and Galatians 1:8-9.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

“Stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thessalonians 2:15) means what he and the other Apostles taught them.

I do not think you are qualified to interpret that passage for the rest of us. Think what you like for yourself, but I have no desire to take up your views as if they were divinely inspired.

Not what others would teach them hundreds of years later. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 clearly speaks against added traditions, not in favor of them.

In other words if a theology, doctrine, practice, tradition was not directly specifically taught by Christ and His Apostles; that theology, doctrine, practice, tradition goes against what Paul told us in 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

In 1 Timothy 3:15 Paul speaks of the original Church which taught the original traditions taught by Christ and His Apostles, in conjunction with 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and Galatians 1:8-9.

 

[ozso]

I do not think you are qualified to interpret that passage for the rest of us. Think what you like for yourself, but I have no desire to take up your views as if they were divinely inspired.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 is very clearly stated. What you're going by is 2 Thessalonians 2:15 means what the Roman Catholic Church tells you it means, rather than what Apostle Paul actually clearly states.

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true Acts 17:11

It seems the Roman Catholic Church says don't to do that. Do not examine the Scriptures to see if what you're being told is true. You're not qualified to see what's true. Only what the RCC tells you is true. Especially if what the RCC tells you clearly goes against scripture it seems. I hope I'm wrong, but that's sure what it sounds like.

 

[Valletta]

So there's will be saved vs can be saved. That those who are active members of the RCC will be saved, whereas Protestants could be saved.

Please don't make things up. The truth is that Catholics don't believe in once saved, always saved. To the contrary, the Word of God says we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; RSVCE

 

[ozso]

Please don't make things up. The truth is that Catholics don't believe in once saved, always saved. To the contrary, the Word of God says we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

That's not even close to what I said. When you misread what someone says, then of course it seems to you that they're making stuff up.

According to prominent RCC spokesman Tim Staples, it's very difficult for a non-Catholic Christian to be saved because they have to meet a lengthy rigid criteria set forth by the RCC. Which I heard him say during his debate with Steve Gregg.

Starts at 40:32

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; RSVCE

Good verse. But I wasn't even remotely talking about once saved always saved. I'm well aware of Catholic teaching on salvation, a lot of which I've heard from Catholic member @fhansen over the years.

The lion's share of what I know about and say about Catholicism is based on what I've heard from Catholics. Going back 50 years. As a child I used to go over to St. Genevieve Catholic Church and talk to priests.

 

[Strong in Him]

Catholic teaching is Christ's teaching

Jesus didn't teach that his mother was perfect, nor that she would become queen of heaven.

 

[ozso]

Catholic teaching is Christ's teaching so it ought to be clear that Catholic teaching is the norm to which others ought to move.

Catholic teaching was purely Christ's teaching up to the 5th century. If the RCC went back to those roots, that foundation, there would be a lot more unity.

And if the Catholic Church had stayed true to the original Church of 500 years, there probably wouldn't have been a schism in 1054 or a reformation in 1517. Along with a whole lot of bad things that happened in Catholic history.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus didn't teach that his mother was perfect, nor that she would become queen of heaven.

So you say.

 

[ozso]

So you say.

Where did Jesus teach that his mother was perfect, and that she would become queen of heaven?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Where did Jesus teach that his mother was perfect, and that she would become queen of heaven?

somewhere that you haven't read, obviously.

 

[ozso]

somewhere that you haven't read, obviously.

Where did you read Jesus teaching that his mother was perfect, and that she would become queen of heaven?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Where did you read Jesus teaching that his mother was perfect, and that she would become queen of heaven?

Where do you think?

 

[ozso]

Where do you think?

I think you're playing silly games.

 

[Strong in Him]

So you say.

Read the Gospels - and then show me the passages where Jesus taught about Mary's perfection.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh please, I point out issues in other denominations and in Christianity as a whole where the human factor is involved.

Out of a former attempt to contribute to 'unity,' I purposefully and knowingly have been guilty of downplaying or straight out ignoring the issues and differences between all of the Trinitarian Denominations.

Shame on me! ........... well, no more. The gloves are com'n off! Who needs more primitive minded unity anyway?

 

[ozso]

Read the Gospels - and then show me the passages where Jesus taught about Mary's perfection.

He's just playing games.

 

[ozso]

Out of a former attempt to contribute to 'unity,' I purposefully and knowingly have been guilty of downplaying or straight out ignoring the issues and differences between all of the Trinitarian Denominations.

Shame on me! ........... well, no more. The gloves are com'n off! Who needs more primitive minded unity anyway?

The unity xeno is prescribing is everyone becoming a Roman Catholic. That's all this was about.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

To put it in no uncertain terms:

The Catholic Church affirms that being a faithful Catholic (accepting Jesus' free gift and responding accordingly) will lead one to salvation.

She also affirms that (insert protestant denomination here) can be saved, not because of said religion, faith, or practice, but in spite of it.

Just sayin

Lol! .................... You can't help yourself, can you? Well then, buckle up, buttercup!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The unity xeno is prescribing is everyone becoming a Roman Catholic. That's all this was about.

Yes, I can see that this has become his 'final position.' He's going to do his RCC victory dance, I suppose.

 

[ozso]

Yes, I can see that this has become his 'final position.' He's going to do his RCC victory dance, I suppose.

In celebration of what, weak apologetics and playing games?