Water Baptism - Is It Really Necessary?

[sawdust]

It is YOU who are saying there are (2) Baptisms.

I say there is ONE BAPTISM (Eph. 4: 5)
I don't think you can show one scripture that says there are (2) Baptisms.

Actually I would say there are more than 2 baptisms but we are discussing which one the "One" is. I can show plenty of scriptures revealing more than one baptism but I will stick to this one only:

instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. Heb.6:2

(note the plural use of the word baptism.)

The problem is you acknowledge that we are baptised in the Spirit when we believe in Christ but then add that water baptism is necessary as well. No matter how you slice it that adds up to two baptisms for the Church age.

Water baptism (John's) was a representative baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus Christ died for our sins that through faith in Him we may know forgiveness of sins.

To continue in the first is to deny the power of the second.

What bothers me most about this whole argument is the insistence that water baptism which, is something that a man does, is essential to salvation. Does not salvation belong to our God and our God alone? Is He encumberent upon the work of a man's hands?

It totally confounds me as to why anyone would think, if after receiving the Spirit of life, one would also need to undergo a ritual that can only touch the outside of a man. How anyone can hold up water baptism as if it is equal in power to the baptism of the Spirit leaves me speechless.

It was asked before what can one lose according to who is right or wrong. If I am right then I can lose nothing and you will be found denying the truth.

If you are right then salvation is dependent upon the availability of an authorised man and natural resources and if that is the case then we are all losers.

I know a Lord who can save without men, without water, without anything but His own presence and when He stretches forth His hand to save? He needs no-one and nothing else to help Him achieve His purpose.

peace

 

[Big_Dave]

Not absolutely necessary, but to refuse baptism is nothing less than to refuse salvation. If you have enough faith in Jesus enough to get baptized, what evidence is there that you're saved?

So then it is nessessary !!!

 

[heymikey80]

Not absolutely necessary, but to refuse baptism is nothing less than to refuse salvation. If you have enough faith in Jesus enough to get baptized, what evidence is there that you're saved?

So then it is nessessary !!!

Eh? How's that conclusion? Let's try the logic on another situation. You receive gifts, right? And unwrapping is important, but not necessary, to receiving a gift:

"Unwrapping is not absolutely necessary, but to refuse to unwrap is nothing less than to refuse the gift. If you have enough interest in the gift to unwrap it, what evidence is there that you received the gift?"

Is wrapping necessary to receiving the gift? Not really. Not all gifts come wrapped, for instance. But not unwrapping the gift is tantamount to rejecting the gift.

So then it isn't absolutely necessary.

 

[Schroeder]

The reason for posting a 2nd scripture was to show that Paul, when speaking on baptism, is only repeating what Peter has already said. Peter makes it very clear that baptism, and the receiving of the Spirt are different. So when Paul speaks of baptism in Romans 6, he is speaking of water baptism.

Rich

this is called cherry picking scripture to make a theology. FOR one why dont you read what Paul is talking about. i brought this up in a different post but you always go around or ignore these points. he was discussing our sinful nature. if you read luke 12 , i believe, you will see he discusses the BAPTISM he must do. His sacrifice and ressurection. Paul states that if we are UNITED(baptised, immersed) with (into) Christ then we are united(baptized immersed) with (into) his death. WHY? because in Crhist baptism which he mentioned he was not speaking of water baptism but his Work or sacrifice. SOo it is obviouse that if we are a part of Christ we become a part of his work. i do not know why i am still trying to explain this to you, you do not wish to understand it. just replace the words baptism with water baptism IT DOES NOT MAKE SINCE, especially if you put it into context with what he is speaking about. WHICH WAS NOT ABOUT WHAT WATER BAPTISM does or signifies. BUT what being joined with Christ through the Spirit does. IT GIVES us a rebirth which takes our sinfull nature away because we live through Christ who is free from sin. SO what is the point of JTB saying Christ will baptize with the SPirit. what does this baptism do for you. Seeing how JTB was for remission of sins and Christ baptism was to replace his. and many scriptures speaks of the SPirit cleaning us. you do not get the concept of what the SPirit does for us. OR how it works. here it is in a nut shell. We hear the gospel, Christ crucified for us, we believe it in our hearts, we accept Him as saviour, He baptises us(since JTB said he will) with the Spirit, which means that he becomes a part of us, which is our rebirth because HIs Spirit is what is giving us life, in this NEW life we have no sin because Christ is sinless. which is how we are cleansed from our sinfull nature. GOd seeing Christ in us knows we are true believers, NOT us doing works to GET saved, this is what GRACE is. THE TRICK in all of it is that we must live by or through the Spirit and not our flesh.

 

[Schroeder]

Eh? How's that conclusion? Let's try the logic on another situation. You receive gifts, right? And unwrapping is important, but not necessary, to receiving a gift:

"Unwrapping is not absolutely necessary, but to refuse to unwrap is nothing less than to refuse the gift. If you have enough interest in the gift to unwrap it, what evidence is there that you received the gift?"

Is wrapping necessary to receiving the gift? Not really. Not all gifts come wrapped, for instance. But not unwrapping the gift is tantamount to rejecting the gift.

So then it isn't absolutely necessary.

typical. using silly anology to prove a theology. trying using Scripture. oh ye you cant seeing how most of what you state isnt there. unless you cherry pick it apart. you can not debate unless you show prove in scripture how do you argue with arguements for water baptism like this.

 

[GenemZ]

typical. using silly anology to prove a theology. trying using Scripture. oh ye you cant seeing how most of what you state isnt there. unless you cherry pick it apart. you can not debate unless you show prove in scripture how do you argue with arguements for water baptism like this.

If he did that?

His argument could not hold water...

GeneZ​

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[heymikey80]

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

Peter is speaking under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is quite clear here that baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit are two completely different events. As I pointed out in an earlier post, it is most important to note that, in the greek, repent and shall receive are in the plural tense, however, be baptised in in the singular.

No one here has even remotely suggested that the water is what saves you. You can be immersed, and come out nice and wet-and in the same condition that you were before.

Rich

Ehxcellent.

 

[Schroeder]

If he did that?

His argument could not hold water...

GeneZ​

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there arguements for water baptism are as BAD as my spelling and grammer. maybe worse for some, if that is possible.

 

[GenemZ]

there arguements for water baptism are as BAD as my spelling and grammer. maybe worse for some, if that is possible.

Dyslexia? I hear that can cause poor spelling in otherwise intelligent people.

Your spelling may be a certain way. But, God knows your mind is right on dead center of the target.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
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[Sprint3]

The reason for posting a 2nd scripture was to show that Paul, when speaking on baptism, is only repeating what Peter has already said. Peter makes it very clear that baptism, and the receiving of the Spirt are different. So when Paul speaks of baptism in Romans 6, he is speaking of water baptism.

Rich

This is so clear when we read Romans 6:4 and Paul equates the symbolism of water baptism with the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

 

[GenemZ]

This is so clear when we read Romans 6:4 and Paul equates the symbolism of water baptism with the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

The only thing clear. Is that you do not know how the word baptism was used back then. That passage speaks of being baptized into the body of Christ. Not water. And, I don't think you are going to get this. For you are working with a frame of reference that is not having the ability to see beyond water at this time.

Mark 1:8 niv
I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
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Forget about that. That just drowns out water baptism for today.

Like I said. The water only folks can not see what baptism meant to those who wrote the words.

1 Corinthians 10:2 niv
"They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."

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See? You have not a clue? Or, can you explain? We are not to have more than one baptism in the Church age. The baptism of the Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ. Not, water. You do not know this?

Ephesians 4:5 niv
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism."
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There is so much one needs to ignore if we are to believe water is the baptism we are to receive today.

In the very beginning of the Church age? They still baptized with water because they still were thinking like they had been previously taught. For they had just walked into a revolutionarily different age. Then! Finally! Peter saw the light!

Acts 11:16 niv
"Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
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It took Peter a while to catch on. But, he finally did. Today it takes time to catch on, as well.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
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[Sprint3]

Wake me when you come up with something other then speculation and arguements against what the Bible clearly says.

 

[Rich48]

This is so clear when we read Romans 6:4 and Paul equates the symbolism of water baptism with the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

So true.

Paul is painting a verbal picture of Christian water baptism.

1. Christ died on the cross/We were dead in our sins
2. Christ was buried/We are buried under the water
3. Christ was raised from the dead/We are raised up showing new life.

Rich

 

[Sprint3]

So true.

Paul is painting a verbal picture of Christian water baptism.

1. Christ died on the cross/We were dead in our sins
2. Christ was buried/We are buried under the water
3. Christ was raised from the dead/We are raised up showing new life.

Rich

But we also need to remember that not every verse mentioning baptism is talking about water baptism.

 

[sawdust]

So true.

Paul is painting a verbal picture of Christian water baptism.

1. Christ died on the cross/We were dead in our sins
2. Christ was buried/We are buried under the water
3. Christ was raised from the dead/We are raised up showing new life.

Rich

You think?

Who raised us up? the water or the Spirit?

peace

 

[Rich48]

It is the body, or better, the soul.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

There is an old saying--"Let scripture interpret scripture." That simply put means do not read something into the text that is not there. WE are raised up, not the Spirit. The anology of Paul is simple. It is not necessary, or right, to attempt to read into it something that is not there. He is comparing water baptism to the death of Christ, and is showing why it is important to the Christian.

Rich

 

[GenemZ]

Wake me when you come up with something other then speculation and arguements against what the Bible clearly says.

Wake up.

Acts 11:16 niv
"Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

Ephesians 4:5 niv
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism."
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Your way of thinking ends up with a changed passage.

Ephesians 4:5 niv
"One Lord, one faith, two baptisms."

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So.....

Ephesians 5:14 niv
"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
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The problem you have is you can not understand how tradition could be so wrong, for so long. Answer? Most believers are nor serious enough about Bible study. They would rather have someone who appears to be in authority to tell them what to think. That is how erroneous traditions become entrenched.

When the error is exposed? Your reaction is to be expected... For some will not be willing to see what it says. Its sounds to deep to them. So, they end up calling it speculation and stay within the walls of their tradition. So be it.

Mark 1:8 niv
I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

​

Just ignore what John the baptist said, and stay where you are. Fine with me.

In Christ, GeneZ

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[sawdust]

It is the body, or better, the soul.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

There is an old saying--"Let scripture interpret scripture." That simply put means do not read something into the text that is not there. WE are raised up, not the Spirit. The anology of Paul is simple. It is not necessary, or right, to attempt to read into it something that is not there. He is comparing water baptism to the death of Christ, and is showing why it is important to the Christian.

Rich

I did not ask "what" is raised up. I asked "who or what" did the raising.

You can't read my question correctly yet you would instruct me how to read scripture? You'll forgive me if I have a little chuckle at that.

Paul is not comparing anything in that passge. He is declaring what actually takes place. When we are baptised we are placed into Christ. It is not the water that does this, it is a work of the Holy Spirit.

What the water signified in John's baptism, the Spirit does in reality for the believer today.

"It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me".

It is "Christ in us, the hope of glory".

What the Spirit has done for each and every believer is the mircale of grace, the wonder of mercy and the sheer delight of the soul.

How anyone could ever consider that H2O has this power?

peace

 

[Rich48]

I did not ask "what" is raised up. I asked "who or what" did the raising.

You can't read my question correctly yet you would instruct me how to read scripture? You'll forgive me if I have a little chuckle at that.

Paul is not comparing anything in that passge. He is declaring what actually takes place. When we are baptised we are placed into Christ. It is not the water that does this, it is a work of the Holy Spirit.

What the water signified in John's baptism, the Spirit does in reality for the believer today.

"It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me".

It is "Christ in us, the hope of glory".

What the Spirit has done for each and every believer is the mircale of grace, the wonder of mercy and the sheer delight of the soul.

How anyone could ever consider that H2O has this power?

peace

No one in this tread, to the best of my knowledge, has said that it is the water that saves you.

Rich

 

[GenemZ]

No one in this tread, to the best of my knowledge, has said that it is the water that saves you.

Rich

Water baptism? You are in, then out.

Baptism into Christ's body?

Christ is a baptism that you are in, but never out.

There, is the difference! They could not remain in water and live.

Yet, we remain IN Christ. And he is our life! There is such great beauty in truth here that you fail to see.

John 14:20 niv
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."
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We have been baptized (permanently) into Christ. We are not dipped into Him, only to come out. Water will kill you if you tried the same. Water was a momentary baptism. It was ritual. The baptism we have in Christ is REAL!

Ephesians 2:6 niv
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus."

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It says that we have been raised up with Him, and in Him!

We have been baptized into the body of Christ!

You can't see this??? Read what it says!

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."
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It says its something we need to realize. Not all get to that point. Ritualistic, religious thinking, holds some back.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

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