Was Solomon saved?

[Hammster]

Yet they apparently did not go to Heaven ... that is one difference.
Isn't that what it's all about - afterlife?

Salvation is by grace through faith.

 

[Edial]

This is true. However, there are at least 3 "compartments" in Sheol.

We know from Jesus' story (not parable) of Lazarus and the rich man that Lazarus went to "Abraham's bosom", or paradise, while the rich man went to "torments". Interestingly, they could converse back and forth, but could not pass over to the other side. Luke 16:19-31.

There is also a compartment for chained angels, from their sin related to Gen 6. This is mentioned in Jude 6 - And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Peter makes the same point in 2 Pet 2:4 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment.

Of course.
The Heaven in OT nonetheless was closed to the masses.

Christ opened it for us.

Salvation in the OT might be the same, grace and faith, but the elements are way too different.
Now we are adopted children, sealed by Spirit ...
If we overlook these things, we are gravitating to OT.

And OT is rather harsh.
It presents the HOPE to salvation.
NT gives us the VERY Heaven.
Isn't this why we believe?

 

[FreeGrace2]

But here is the distinction between the wisdoms ...

JAS 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

JAS 3:17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

I do not see how Solomon's wisdom was from Heaven.

1 Kings 3:28 cannot be denied. I think there are 2 different issues. Until Solomon's heart was turned away by his wives, I believe his wisdom came from the Lord. But after his heart was turned away, I don't think he had any wisdom at all.

I think James 3 would describe Solomon before his heart was turned away.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course.
The Heaven in OT nonetheless was closed to the masses.

I certainly don't agree with universalism. But wasn't Israel chosen to be a nation of evangelists for the masses? Of course they failed, but through their many dispersions, I believe the faithful did evangelize. Jonah is one example. Though he wasn't part of any dispersion.

Christ opened it for us.

Salvation in the OT might be the same, grace and faith, but the elements are way too different.

I don't see any appreciable difference between grace and faith at any time.

Now we are adopted children, sealed by Spirit ...
If we overlook these things, we are gravitating to OT.

Yes, these clearly are different. For example, the indelling of the Holy Spirit wasn't for all believers in the OT. Very few were indwelt. David prayed that God would not take the Spirit from him. But Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be given to all believers permanently.

And OT is rather harsh.
It presents the HOPE to salvation.
NT gives us the VERY Heaven.
Isn't this why we believe?

Yes. But remember, heaven is temporary. Rev 21 speaks of this present heaven and earth passing away and God creating a new heaven and earth post-Millennium, and heaven will come down to earth.

 

[Hammster]

Of course.
The Heaven in OT nonetheless was closed to the masses.

Christ opened it for us.

Salvation in the OT might be the same, grace and faith, but the elements are way too different.
Now we are adopted children, sealed by Spirit ...
If we overlook these things, we are gravitating to OT.

And OT is rather harsh.
It presents the HOPE to salvation.
NT gives us the VERY Heaven.
Isn't this why we believe?

Heaven in the OT was just as accessible as it is today. Unrepentant sinners are excluded. The elements of grace and faith (whatever that means) are the same today as in the OT. I'm not sure why you are making these distinctions.

 

[sdowney717]

Heaven in the OT was just as accessible as it is today. Unrepentant sinners are excluded. The elements of grace and faith (whatever that means) are the same today as in the OT. I'm not sure why you are making these distinctions.

Yes it is the same salvation by grace through faith back then and today.
Paul uses an OT passage in Romans 10 to demonstrate this.

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”[g]

Joel 2:32
New King James Version (NKJV)

32
And it shall come to pass

That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.

For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,

As the Lord has said,

Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

The Lord says there will be salvation for all those who call on Him.
The Lord also says that those who call on Him are the remnant whom HE, the Lord has called.

Remnant -- limited atonement -- is only for those He calls.
They call on HIM to be saved because The Lord calls them first.

Further, these people, note where they are, in Jerusalem, Mount Zion.
This is a dwelling place in a Spiritual sense. Those who are the remnant, whom He calls, they are in the Fathers care, in His house, the house of the Lord. They are His children and this has nothing to do with earthly coordinates.

Going way back to Gen 4, an interesting verse.

25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, “For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed.” 26 And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh.[c] Then men began to call on the name of the Lord.

To call on the name of the LORD means salvation for all those who call on Him are among the remnant who he calls. As He has said in Joel 2.

 

[Edial]

1 Kings 3:28 cannot be denied. I think there are 2 different issues. Until Solomon's heart was turned away by his wives, I believe his wisdom came from the Lord. But after his heart was turned away, I don't think he had any wisdom at all.

I think James 3 would describe Solomon before his heart was turned away.

Ok, let's assume that.
But what about Proverbs and Ecclesiastes?
Everything in-there is in the context of "under the sun" - the world.

It appears to me that the wisdom in these Books was how to live in the world and how useless that wisdom is, since God is sovereign over it.

I believe (better say "I think") that Solomon understood that the Wisdom of the World "does not work" in the context of God's wisdom.

What do you think?

 

[Edial]

Heaven in the OT was just as accessible as it is today. Unrepentant sinners are excluded. The elements of grace and faith (whatever that means) are the same today as in the OT. I'm not sure why you are making these distinctions.

But weren't people of faith go to Abraham' Bosom?
It's in Sheol, isn't it?
Bosom of Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grace and faith were always there.
Salvation "formula" never changed and never will.
But many applications of the elements did change after the Cross.

 

[Edial]

I certainly don't agree with universalism. But wasn't Israel chosen to be a nation of evangelists for the masses? Of course they failed, but through their many dispersions, I believe the faithful did evangelize. Jonah is one example. Though he wasn't part of any dispersion.

Of course they evangelize ... but what exactly DID they evangelize?
Grace and faith are the backbone, but what did they teach exactly?

Here is the way I understand their teaching ... step-by-step throughout the OT.
1. There is One God, the Almighty.
2. Unlike the demons and other gods (same thing), God is good.
3. We are sinners.
4. We want Heaven yet cannot reach it on our own.
5. Our situation is hopeless. Sheol awaits us and the best corner of Sheol is the environment of sadness.
6. YET, because God is NOT like demons, and because God is GOOD and God is LOVE, He HIMSELF will save us ...

That is the Gospel preached to nations, the way I understand the OT.

I don't see any appreciable difference between grace and faith at any time.

Same formula different application.

Yes, these clearly are different. For example, the indelling of the Holy Spirit wasn't for all believers in the OT. Very few were indwelt. David prayed that God would not take the Spirit from him. But Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be given to all believers permanently.

Of course.
Just one of the examples.

Yes. But remember, heaven is temporary. Rev 21 speaks of this present heaven and earth passing away and God creating a new heaven and earth post-Millennium, and heaven will come down to earth.

True.
But there is also Heaven where God dwells.
A place WITH God.
And Christ promised us "rooms" (actually rather large rooms ) where we will be WITH Christ.
Christ is in Heaven and we will be with Him.

And new Heavens.
Sure, but we would then live in the New Jerusalem during this major construction and renovation.

Some say New Jerusalem is a cube, but it is not a cube.
It is of the shape of pyramid.
The only shape of New Jerusalem as described in the Bible could be either a cube or a pyramid.
Since Christ is the Cornerstone and Capstone - pyramid.

Of course, Satan is trying to use his own pyramids, Egypt and all, but that's another topic.
Fascinating topic, however.

 

[Edial]

Salvation is by grace through faith.

True.

 

[Edial]

Yes it is the same salvation by grace through faith back then and today.
Paul uses an OT passage in Romans 10 to demonstrate this.

Grace and faith never changed.

Going way back to Gen 4, an interesting verse.

25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, “For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed.” 26 And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh.[c] Then men began to call on the name of the Lord.

To call on the name of the LORD means salvation for all those who call on Him are among the remnant who he calls. As He has said in Joel 2.

Or, Gen 4:26 could mean a more simpler interpretation.

People started actually calling on God as many do today without the context of salvation. Apparently Enosh influenced the people around him in some manner that after him people began calling on the name of the Lord. Don't know.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

I am going to agree that Solomon was saved.

He certainly did much evil though.

I tend to agree with you.

I think the problem was his wives convinced him to follow demons when Solomon got old.
Look at what happened to Samson.
Delilah literally nagged him to death.

JDG 16:15 Then she said to him, "How can you say, `I love you,' when you won't confide in me? This is the third time you have made a fool of me and haven't told me the secret of your great strength." 16 With such nagging she prodded him day after day until he was tired to death.
JDG 16:17 So he told her everything. "No razor has ever been used on my head," he said, "because I have been a Nazirite set apart to God since birth. If my head were shaved, my strength would leave me, and I would become as weak as any other man."

 

[Hammster]

I am going to agree that Solomon was saved.

He certainly did much evil though.

I am saved. And I do much evil.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok, let's assume that.
But what about Proverbs and Ecclesiastes?
Everything in-there is in the context of "under the sun" - the world.

It appears to me that the wisdom in these Books was how to live in the world and how useless that wisdom is, since God is sovereign over it.

I believe (better say "I think") that Solomon understood that the Wisdom of the World "does not work" in the context of God's wisdom.

What do you think?

Yes, I agree. The wisdom of this world clearly is totally inferior to God's wisdom. In fact, that was Paul's point in 1 Cor 2:6-16.

The point of Ecclesiastes was that everything that man considers important: human wisdom (1:12-18), pleasure (2:1-11), human wisdom, folly and work (2:12-26), wealth (5:8-6-12) are all meaningless. And he ends with this:
remember your Creator while young and fear God and keep His commandments (ch 12).

Sadly, he didn't take his own advice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course they evangelize ... but what exactly DID they evangelize?
Grace and faith are the backbone, but what did they teach exactly?

Here is the way I understand their teaching ... step-by-step throughout the OT.
1. There is One God, the Almighty.
2. Unlike the demons and other gods (same thing), God is good.
3. We are sinners.
4. We want Heaven yet cannot reach it on our own.
5. Our situation is hopeless. Sheol awaits us and the best corner of Sheol is the environment of sadness.
6. YET, because God is NOT like demons, and because God is GOOD and God is LOVE, He HIMSELF will save us ...

That is the Gospel preached to nations, the way I understand the OT.

I have a diferent take on it. From Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man, we know that the rich man wanted to spare his brothers of coming to torments, and requested that Abraham send Lazarus back to warn them. And Abraham's reply: 29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

I believe that "Moses and the prophets contained the same gospel message we believe today: place your faith in the Messiah for salvation.

True.
But there is also Heaven where God dwells.
A place WITH God.
And Christ promised us "rooms" (actually rather large rooms ) where we will be WITH Christ.
Christ is in Heaven and we will be with Him.

And new Heavens.
Sure, but we would then live in the New Jerusalem during this major construction and renovation.

From Rev 21, it would appear that God actually comes down from heaven to dwell with mankind permanently.
v.1-3 - 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Some say New Jerusalem is a cube, but it is not a cube.
It is of the shape of pyramid.
The only shape of New Jerusalem as described in the Bible could be either a cube or a pyramid.
Since Christ is the Cornerstone and Capstone - pyramid.

Hm. Interesting.

Rev 21:16-17 - 16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.

Kinda sounds oblongish. But I guess it could be sorta pyramidish.

Of course, Satan is trying to use his own pyramids, Egypt and all, but that's another topic.
Fascinating topic, however.

Very much so!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am saved. And I do much evil.

When, oh when, will it stop?

On a more sober note, we're all in the same boat. Thank God for His matchless grace!

 

[Hammster]

When, oh when, will it stop?

On a more sober note, we're all in the same boat. Thank God for His matchless grace!

On that we can agree.

 

[sdowney717]

Grace and faith never changed.



Or, Gen 4:26 could mean a more simpler interpretation.

People started actually calling on God as many do today without the context of salvation. Apparently Enosh influenced the people around him in some manner that after him people began calling on the name of the Lord. Don't know.

Thanks,
Ed

Yes, but is that really men calling on the name of the Lord?
I think it has a deeper meaning, one that comes from the change of a new heart, not a temporary state of distress which when passed, a man goes back to his former way of living.

 

[Edial]

I have a diferent take on it. From Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man, we know that the rich man wanted to spare his brothers of coming to torments, and requested that Abraham send Lazarus back to warn them. And Abraham's reply: 29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

I believe that "Moses and the prophets contained the same gospel message we believe today: place your faith in the Messiah for salvation.

Of course they did.
The 6 steps I have listed are the Gospel of the OT without actually naming Christ.
God was saying elsewhere His own Hand will save us.
Whatever I listed there is the NT gospel skeleton without details and clarity NT gives.

From Rev 21, it would appear that God actually comes down from heaven to dwell with mankind permanently.
v.1-3 - 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

It is not that God is coming to man, it is that the Kingdom of God is breaching the world.
Remember in Revelation that the sky rolled up like a scroll and people were freaking out and trying to hide from the face of God?
Remember where is says in Heb 8:5 that the temple here is the copy and shadow of the one in Heaven?
Remember in Revelation when John was measuring the temple?
... as if the temple of Heaven would "land" on Solomon's temple on earth (which would be rebuilt by then)?

The Kingdom of God would breach (destroy) and then swallow the world.

In the end, it would be like in the Garden of Eden - there would be no separation between the Natural and Supernatural.
The sin is gone.

However, it would be incredibly more magnificent than the Garden, since the Garden in itself was just a seed of something more incredible.

Hm. Interesting.

Rev 21:16-17 - 16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.

Kinda sounds oblongish. But I guess it could be sorta pyramidish.


Very much so!

The shape is pyramid since Christ is both Cornerstone and Capstone (capstone is the tip).

Satan is imitating everything God is doing, Egyptian pyramids, Pharaoh's ... topic is absolutely fascinating.

And oh, the neat things I have to discuss ... how God brought the judgment on the gods of Egypt ... Ex 12:12 ... also the Greek gods (demons) taking charge over the Egyptian gods ...

Bible is an absolutely magnificent Book.

 

[Edial]

Yes, but is that really men calling on the name of the Lord?
I think it has a deeper meaning, one that comes from the change of a new heart, not a temporary state of distress which when passed, a man goes back to his former way of living.

But the entire message of the OT is the record of disobedience, not of obedience.
The Israelites did go back to their former ways of life once life got better after they cried out to God.

The entire spiritual message humanity sends is - I'm in trouble. ... GOD!

No more trouble ... whew, that was close ... let's eat and drink!

Only the incredible patience and love of God could overcome our utter unfaithfulness.