Was Solomon saved?

[FreeGrace2]

Was Abraham justified before Isaac was born or after he tried sacrificing him?

Righteousness was credited to Abraham in Gen 15:6, way before He put Isaac on the altar. And regarding justification, there are 2 "views". In the eyes of God, and in the eyes of man. Paul wrote about being justified in the eyes of God, who can actually see our faith. But James wrote about being justified in the eyes of men, who cannot see our faith, but can see our deeds.

Why not?
Faith = believe

I think you missed my point. There are 2 ways to believe something; by experience and by faith, apart from experience. Demons believe that God is One from experience, while we believe it by faith. A very big difference.

And James called dead faith as belief in context of theology without works.

JAS 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Dead in the sense of not working. What is a working faith? One that produces action, deeds, that others can see.

JAS 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

This is an example of being justified in the eyes of men, not God. God doesn't need or require to see man's faith by action, while man cannot see the faith of another without deeds.

James 2:18
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

James shows here it is impossible to demonstrate your faith apart from works.

James was not speaking about saving vs non saving faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Depends how you look at it.

Welcome to CF

If you believe baptism is purely symbolic and practically is meaningless then yes, in this opinion baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

If you believe that salvation is a process consisting of steps, then baptism is one of those steps.

If you believe baptism in itself is a grace of God then it is a part of salvation.

If you believe salvation and justification are synonymous and instantaneous ... then the Bible would make no sense and we develop camps of OSAS vs OSNAS with each one carrying his own set of verses.

In my opinion ...

Thanks,
Ed

Quick question: do you distinguish between water baptism immersion) vs the "baptism of the Holy Spirit"?

 

[Aviela]

James 2:18
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

James shows here it is impossible to demonstrate your faith apart from works.

James was not speaking about saving vs non saving faith.

Good point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Good point.

My pleasure.

 

[Philothei]

I see this as contradictory. Either we are saved when we accept and believe or we r not saved. For instance How can we say we saved someone from drowning and then proceed to say but they aren't saved in totality. Saved is saved. how fruitful their life becomes is a different issue.

Maybe I was not clear enough I guess... Salvation is NOT dependent on baptism for sure but it is commanded we do it? Would that make more sense to put it this way? IOW when Paul baptized the whole household was it a mandatory act or not? Was this commandment mandatory or not?
I guess it all comes to what one thinks it is a commandment in the Bible and what it not but we ca see the scripture that says :

The Great Commission
…18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Matthew 13:52
He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."



Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Acts 8:16
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.



Romans 6:3
Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?


1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?


Galatians 3:27
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Yes I believe the Holy Spirit can do greater works in our lives once we yield to the requests / commands of God but again that is different than salvation.

Also not clear what u mean regarding the thief on the cross being baptized...

Just a question then on this would be what is the role of baptism in the life of Christ, the disciples and us today. If the fullness of the spirit is within us once we believe and it is not mandatory to salvation (which btw I also believe as God as a spirit blows wherever it wills) why then the command to His Apostles and the 'great commission" is in a way invalid? Can we pick and chose whatever we believe from what he commanded for us to do?

As far as the thief on the Cross some argue that is an example of one who was not baptized yet he was saved. The reason the thief was not baptized is that Christ who is God could not baptize him obviously on the cross with true water and Christ never actually baptized anyone His word was enough for a person to find salvation always with their consent to His word.

The command of baptism goes to His Apostles thus the practice of baptism today. The Apostles continued this practice of baptism to all the believers in Christ and made new disciples.

 

[Aviela]

Just a question then on this would be what is the role of baptism in the life of Christ, the disciples and us today. If the fullness of the spirit is within us once we believe and it is not mandatory to salvation (which btw I also believe as God as a spirit blows wherever it wills) why then the command to His Apostles and the 'great commission" is in a way invalid? Can we pick and chose whatever we believe from what he commanded for us to do?

As far as the thief on the Cross some argue that is an example of one who was not baptized yet he was saved. The reason the thief was not baptized is that Christ who is God could not baptize him obviously on the cross with true water and Christ never actually baptized anyone His word was enough for a person to find salvation always with their consent to His word.

The command of baptism goes to His Apostles thus the practice of baptism today. The Apostles continued this practice of baptism to all the believers in Christ and made new disciples.

One point I'd like to make is that all God commands / asks of us is important and yes I take baptism and all other things as important. But I would not say baptism saves us and I think we are to be diligent and do our best but I also think God is gracious knowing we are not able to be perfect. It's why we need Him (Trinity) and our folly / lack of literal baptism / imperfect ways doesn't exclude us from being saved / heaven. Thief on the cross and other biblical characters are proof of this. Again I make note of Romans 4 and 5 as I've mentioned earlier and think the crucial aspect of salvation for both the ot and nt are being truly repentant and accepting and believing God as our Lord and Saviour as spoken of in Romans 4 & 5.

I also think grace asked a pertinent question:

Quick question: do you distinguish between water baptism immersion) vs the "baptism of the Holy Spirit"?

 

[Aviela]

I think if we love someone, then what is important to them will be important to us. If we love and are committed to God then we will strive to keep all His commands. If we recognize who God really is and just how capable we are of folly we will recognize our need for His grace and salvation (confession and repentance).

There is also Jesus Himself saying go and sin no more. Not excluding any commands.

 

[Aviela]

Having devotions this morning and thought this passage was relevant to the op and our discussions in general:

2 Timothy 1:8-10 (NKJV) 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power
of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ
Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

I think it speaks to the definition of salvation throughout the ages both ot and nt.

 

[Philothei]

One point I'd like to make is that all God commands / asks of us is important and yes I take baptism and all other things as important. But I would not say baptism saves us and I think we are to be diligent and do our best but I also think God is gracious knowing we are not able to be perfect. It's why we need Him (Trinity) and our folly / lack of literal baptism / imperfect ways doesn't exclude us from being saved / heaven. Thief on the cross and other biblical characters are proof of this. Again I make note of Romans 4 and 5 as I've mentioned earlier and think the crucial aspect of salvation for both the ot and nt are being truly repentant and accepting and believing God as our Lord and Saviour as spoken of in Romans 4 & 5.

I do not think that I insisted that Baptism ALONE saves us. For sure there are lot of baptized folks who have left Christianity altogether (althouh we cannot judge them as Paul says God will do that) yeah salvation IMHO is not guaranteed... Man has to stay with God in order that God will stay with him... We have to agree with His commandments and strive for them.
Where I would disagree respectfully is that "imperfect ways" need not be used as vehicle for taking a step back but actually followed as per Christ command. The great commission of Christ is the New Torah ... We are not under the law of Moses but under the Law of God and God's law are the commandments. Romans 4 and 5 is talking about a legalistic Jewish system with rigit rules that people had to follow. Christ came to all people; Christ came to renew the Torah to make a new contract with people to add, to sub, to even change..."an eye for an eye" was replaced by the new "love one another . He is not diminishing the old law but he fulfills it.
I also think grace asked a pertinent question:

I think if we love someone, then what is important to them will be important to us. If we love and are committed to God then we will strive to keep all His commands. If we recognize who God really is and just how capable we are of folly we will recognize our need for His grace and salvation (confession and repentance).

There is also Jesus Himself saying go and sin no more. Not excluding any commands.

Ultimately the commandments are there as guidelines for our lives for they are not there to oppress us but they are helpful tools to say by Christ's footsteps to stay beside us.

Having devotions this morning and thought this passage was relevant to the op and our discussions in general:

2 Timothy 1:8-10 (NKJV) 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power
of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ
Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

I think it speaks to the definition of salvation throughout the ages both ot and nt.

I see that I will be happy to discuss anything regarding these verses

 

[Aviela]

I do not think that I insisted that Baptism ALONE saves us. For sure there are lot of baptized folks who have left Christianity altogether (althouh we cannot judge them as Paul says God will do that) yeah salvation IMHO is not guaranteed... Man has to stay with God in order that God will stay with him... We have to agree with His commandments and strive for them.
Where I would disagree respectfully is that "imperfect ways" need not be used as vehicle for taking a step back but actually followed as per Christ command. The great commission of Christ is the New Torah ... We are not under the law of Moses but under the Law of God and God's law are the commandments. Romans 4 and 5 is talking about a legalistic Jewish system with rigit rules that people had to follow. Christ came to all people; Christ came to renew the Torah to make a new contract with people to add, to sub, to even change..."an eye for an eye" was replaced by the new "love one another . He is not diminishing the old law but he fulfills it.
I also think grace asked a pertinent question:

Actually I never suggested that our imperfect ways are reasons to take a step back. Quite the opposite. I have been saying they are why we need to, in a sense, take a step forward and to acknowledge our need for God...why we need His grace. I believe God desires relationship with us and draws us to Himself despite our failings. He loves us despite our imperfections so much so that Christ died for us. One of the most beautiful things about salvation is God's exemplification of love.

I'm aware of what Romans 4 & 5 are speaking of. One of my points is since Solomon was living in the ot those passages were relevant to the topic of salvation for that time period. Also that there is a theme regarding the definition of salvation running through both the old and New Testament.

Yes, I'm aware Christ came to fulfill the law etc.:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17

^^but I don't believe that It is biblical to believe we are saved by works or to be so focused on the law that we lose sight of grace. For instance there are various passages that address this and I think it depends on how we are defining law in relation to the new covenant:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


Romans 8:1-8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He
condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.