Was Solomon saved?

[OzSpen]

So you don't think that's what scripture says Solomon did in 1 Kings 11?

Edial at #79 has placed the biblical emphasis correctly, I believe.

 

[cygnusx1]

The salvation of Solomon or David or even king Saul maybe debated , but I think it begs the question over how we see salvation :

Is salvation like a maths exam ? Enough points and your through !

Or

Is salvation about a relationship ? He is my child no matter what !

 

[Hammster]

Just looked it up.
I don't think it was apostasy.
The text says his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD.

1KI 11:1 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter--Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, "You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods." Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

Right. Not fully devoted. He just treated God like any other god. Majorly broke a few commandments and didn't care. And you don't think that's apostasy?

 

[Hammster]

The salvation of Solomon or David or even king Saul maybe debated , but I think it begs the question over how we see salvation :

Is salvation like a maths exam ? Enough points and your through !

Or

Is salvation about a relationship ? He is my child no matter what !

That's is definitely how the Arminians see it. No father/child relationship. No "I will never leave you not forsake you". It's, "don't screw up, or else".

I'd hate to live that way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doing from memory ... he even followed Molech, that means child sacrifice.
What is going on?

1 Kings 11:1-6

1 Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2 from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, “You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods.” Solomon held fast to these in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. 4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.

Several points from this passage. First, he loved many foreign women, even though God had commaned the Israelites not to associate with them, because they will turn their hearts away. Which is exactly what happened to Solomon.

Also note the wording in v.4, "his heart was not WHOLLY DEVOTED to the LORD his God." It doesn't say that there was no devotion. Also, it says "the LORD his God.

Finally, it says that he "did not follow the LORD fully".

What is apparent is that Solomon was clearly saved, and the LORD was his God. But because of his sin of loving many foreign women, they turned his heart from the Lord, something that is potential for every believer, and is why the NT several times admonishes believers to "remain true to the Lord" or "continue in the faith".

Finally, because of his sin, God did remove the kingdom from him. But because of Solomon's father's faithfulness and obedience, God didn't remove Solomon directly, but in the next generation.

My view is that Solomon died in the condition we find in 1 Kings 11. Saved, but out of God's will for his life.

 

[Edial]

Right. Not fully devoted. He just treated God like any other god. Majorly broke a few commandments and didn't care. And you don't think that's apostasy?

Apostasy is when one officially and publicly renounces God.
Templeton was a good example, I believe.

 

[Hammster]

Apostasy is when one officially and publicly renounces God.
Templeton was a good example, I believe.

Apostates are never saved in the first place. That was John's point in 1 John 2.

They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19 NASB)

 

[Edial]

1 Kings 11:1-6

1 Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2 from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, “You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods.” Solomon held fast to these in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. 4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.

Several points from this passage. First, he loved many foreign women, even though God had commaned the Israelites not to associate with them, because they will turn their hearts away. Which is exactly what happened to Solomon.

Also note the wording in v.4, "his heart was not WHOLLY DEVOTED to the LORD his God." It doesn't say that there was no devotion. Also, it says "the LORD his God.

Finally, it says that he "did not follow the LORD fully".

What is apparent is that Solomon was clearly saved, and the LORD was his God. But because of his sin of loving many foreign women, they turned his heart from the Lord, something that is potential for every believer, and is why the NT several times admonishes believers to "remain true to the Lord" or "continue in the faith".

Finally, because of his sin, God did remove the kingdom from him. But because of Solomon's father's faithfulness and obedience, God didn't remove Solomon directly, but in the next generation.

My view is that Solomon died in the condition we find in 1 Kings 11. Saved, but out of God's will for his life.

Oh, the text says there was some devotion.
Apostasy is when there is an official and sober renouncement of God.
Oz presented the example of Templeton as apostasy.

My other question whether or not his wisdom was from Heaven of earth.

It looks to me his wisdom was earthly wisdom.

What do you think?

 

[Edial]

The salvation of Solomon or David or even king Saul maybe debated , but I think it begs the question over how we see salvation :

Is salvation like a maths exam ? Enough points and your through !

Or

Is salvation about a relationship ? He is my child no matter what !

But isn't the NT salvation look different from the old?

NT is adopted family of God, Heaven is open through the only son Jesus Christ, sealing of Holy Spirit.

OT - Heaven is closed to the masses, Spirit comes and goes from a person, and the relationship with God is a lot more formal - no Abba father calls.

I don't know.

 

[Hammster]

But isn't the NT salvation look different from the old?

NT is adopted family of God, Heaven is open through the only son Jesus Christ, sealing of Holy Spirit.

OT - Heaven is closed to the masses, Spirit comes and goes from a person, and the relationship with God is a lot more formal - no Abba father calls.

I don't know.

Salvation is the same in the OT and NT.

 

[cygnusx1]

But isn't the NT salvation look different from the old?

NT is adopted family of God, Heaven is open through the only son Jesus Christ, sealing of Holy Spirit.

OT - Heaven is closed to the masses, Spirit comes and goes from a person, and the relationship with God is a lot more formal - no Abba father calls.

I don't know.

I think it's as difficult for any man to be saved now as it was then , some deny regeneration even existed in OT times , I don't hold that view anymore than OT saints could be saved outside of Christ , there is an OT and a NT but only one covenant of Grace which predates Moses.

Closed to the masses ? Jesus deliberately spoke in Parables

 

[Edial]

Salvation is the same in the OT and NT.

Yet they apparently did not go to Heaven ... that is one difference.
Isn't that what it's all about - afterlife?

 

[Edial]

I think it's as difficult for any man to be saved now as it was then , some deny regeneration even existed in OT times , I don't hold that view anymore than OT saints could be saved outside of Christ , there is an OT and a NT but only one covenant of Grace which predates Moses.

Closed to the masses ? Jesus deliberately spoke in Parables

I found that theological views sometimes obfuscate my common sense.
I try avoiding them when I can and share what I read.

My impression from reading the OT was that all people were going to Sheol.
There were exceptions of course, but very few.

 

[cygnusx1]

I found that theological views sometimes obfuscate my common sense.
I try avoiding them when I can and share what I read.

My impression from reading the OT was that all people were going to Sheol.
There were exceptions of course, but very few.

Common sense is vastly overrated !

I notice the relationship of God to heroes of the faith is primary in scripture NOT their performance .

I mean King David , as much a failure as Solomon in regards to works : Peter as much a failure as Thomas in regards to faith !

Yet still saved because God was committed by the covenant of Grace which is Sovereign unconditional and eternal .

Does God permit some to fall ? Yes , but that is Gods prerogative .

 

[FreeGrace2]

Apostates are never saved in the first place.

If the definition of apostasy if real, then your statement cannot be true.

From Wikipedia:
Apostasy in Christianity refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian. The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion. It has been described as "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christianity. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian...."[2] "Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in the God of the covenant, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ."[3] "Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion."[1]

My 1968 Collegiate Webster's says it this way: "to no longer believe what was once believed". Which is basically what Wiki says.

So, if the concept of apostasy is real, then true, saved believers can apostatize.

If true believers cannot apostatize, then the word has no meaning.

That was John's point in 1 John 2.

They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19 NASB)

Not really. In Acts, we read of believers among the Pharisees who demanded circumcision in order to be saved. Kinda like today's Lordship salvation view, which demands deeds/works to prove that one is saved.

John could have easily meant believers who weren't squared away on their doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, the text says there was some devotion.

Which is significant, as it was related to David's devotion, only not as much. How could an unsaved unbeliever be compared with a "friend of God", the only man so designated.

Apostasy is when there is an official and sober renouncement of God.
Oz presented the example of Templeton as apostasy.

Yes, I addressed that to hammster. But it seems extremely unlikely, if not outright impossible for him to have dedicated his life, prior to defection, to preaching the gospel, by which many came to faith in Christ. He even mentored Billy Graham. His problem was some principle from the OT about God and His character that he just couldn't wrap his head around. As a result, he decided that God didn't exist. I'm not sure that he ever denounced God or
Christ. In fact, towards the end of his life, during an interview, he was reported to have said that he "missed Jesus Christ", or something like that.

My other question whether or not his wisdom was from Heaven of earth.

It looks to me his wisdom was earthly wisdom.

What do you think?

I believe it was from heaven.

First, Nathan was involved in annointing Solomon; 1 Kings 1:38-53.

Second, note David's charge to Solomon in 1 Kings 2:3,4 - 3 “Keep the charge of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn, 4 so that the LORD may carry out His promise which He spoke concerning me, saying, ‘If your sons are careful of their way, to walk before Me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, you shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’

Finally, Solomon asks God for wisdom in 1 Kings 3.

1 Ki 3:28 - When all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had handed down, they feared the king, for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him to administer justice.

I believe the life of Solomon demonstrates that truly born again believers can fall and fall hard.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Salvation is the same in the OT and NT.

Amen! The OT looked forward to the cross, while NT looks back to the cross.

Both have to look to the cross for salvation. Jesus made that point by equating what Moses did with a bronze snake with what He was going to do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I found that theological views sometimes obfuscate my common sense.
I try avoiding them when I can and share what I read.

My impression from reading the OT was that all people were going to Sheol.
There were exceptions of course, but very few.

This is true. However, there are at least 3 "compartments" in Sheol.

We know from Jesus' story (not parable) of Lazarus and the rich man that Lazarus went to "Abraham's bosom", or paradise, while the rich man went to "torments". Interestingly, they could converse back and forth, but could not pass over to the other side. Luke 16:19-31.

There is also a compartment for chained angels, from their sin related to Gen 6. This is mentioned in Jude 6 - And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Peter makes the same point in 2 Pet 2:4 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment.

 

[Edial]

Which is significant, as it was related to David's devotion, only not as much. How could an unsaved unbeliever be compared with a "friend of God", the only man so designated.


Yes, I addressed that to hammster. But it seems extremely unlikely, if not outright impossible for him to have dedicated his life, prior to defection, to preaching the gospel, by which many came to faith in Christ. He even mentored Billy Graham. His problem was some principle from the OT about God and His character that he just couldn't wrap his head around. As a result, he decided that God didn't exist. I'm not sure that he ever denounced God or
Christ. In fact, towards the end of his life, during an interview, he was reported to have said that he "missed Jesus Christ", or something like that.


I believe it was from heaven.

First, Nathan was involved in annointing Solomon; 1 Kings 1:38-53.

Second, note David's charge to Solomon in 1 Kings 2:3,4 - 3 “Keep the charge of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn, 4 so that the LORD may carry out His promise which He spoke concerning me, saying, ‘If your sons are careful of their way, to walk before Me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, you shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’

Finally, Solomon asks God for wisdom in 1 Kings 3.

1 Ki 3:28 - When all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had handed down, they feared the king, for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him to administer justice.

I believe the life of Solomon demonstrates that truly born again believers can fall and fall hard.

But here is the distinction between the wisdoms ...

JAS 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

JAS 3:17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

I do not see how Solomon's wisdom was from Heaven.

 

[Edial]

Common sense is vastly overrated !

So is theology.
Plain reading should be available even to plain folks.

I notice the relationship of God to heroes of the faith is primary in scripture NOT their performance .

I mean King David , as much a failure as Solomon in regards to works : Peter as much a failure as Thomas in regards to faith !

Yet still saved because God was committed by the covenant of Grace which is Sovereign unconditional and eternal .

Does God permit some to fall ? Yes , but that is Gods prerogative .

Faith without works is dead.
Live faith should be seen by works.

How about loving another brother outside of theology?

1JN 2:9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.