Was Solomon saved?

Edial

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The reason given in Hebrews 6:4-6 for losing salvation ('falling away' from the faith) is apostasy. The Greek word used confirms this: parapesontas, aorist participle of parapipto, which Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning as “fall away, commit apostasy” (1957:626). It is a point action (aorist tense) of committing the act of apostasy. This meaning is affirmed by Thayer's Greek lexicon: “to fall away (from the true faith)” (1962:485).

And, based on this passage from Heb 6:4-6, it is impossible for those who commit apostasy to be restored to repentance.

What's the evidence that Solomon committed apostasy?
The word also means "rebellion" ... easier to understand.
There are a number of instances when Israelites rebelled and died.

Do you believe Solomon rebelled or got addicted to sin or was even deceived by sin?

Thanks,:)
Ed
Ed
 
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Hammster

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The reason given in Hebrews 6:4-6 for losing salvation ('falling away' from the faith) is apostasy. The Greek word used confirms this: parapesontas, aorist participle of parapipto, which Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning as “fall away, commit apostasy” (1957:626). It is a point action (aorist tense) of committing the act of apostasy. This meaning is affirmed by Thayer's Greek lexicon: “to fall away (from the true faith)” (1962:485).

And, based on this passage from Heb 6:4-6, it is impossible for those who commit apostasy to be restored to repentance.

What's the evidence that Solomon committed apostasy?

I would say that if someone turned their heart away from God, it would be a sign of apostasy. Would you agree, or does more need to happen?
 
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OzSpen

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The word also means "rebellion" ... easier to understand.
There are a number of instances when Israelites rebelled and died.

Do you believe Solomon rebelled or got addicted to sin or was even deceived by sin?

Thanks,:)
Ed
Ed
The lexicon meanings from Arndt & Gingrich, and Thayer, are falling away, apostasy. Rebellion has different connotations in English to apostasy.

We have evidence that Solomon loved God, was walking in the statutes of his father, David, and then committed gross sin with ungodly women and in serving other gods.

I don't know that I have the evidence from the OT or NT that Solomon committed apostasy and was damned, never to return to repentance. We have evidence that Solomon committed sin in engaging with ungodly women, serving other gods, but I don't know Solomon's ultimate destiny as I don't have all of the evidence.

This I do know from Heb 6:4-6 that it is possible for people to fall away from the faith, commit apostasy, and can never be restored to repentance.

We see a very sad example of this with Charles Templeton. See: Charles Templeton's "Farewell to God"

Oz
 
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AndOne

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The lexicon meanings from Arndt & Gingrich, and Thayer, are falling away, apostasy. Rebellion has different connotations in English to apostasy.

We have evidence that Solomon loved God, was walking in the statutes of his father, David, and then committed gross sin with ungodly women and in serving other gods.

I don't know that I have the evidence from the OT or NT that Solomon committed apostasy and was damned, never to return to repentance. We have evidence that Solomon committed sin in engaging with ungodly women, serving other gods, but I don't know Solomon's ultimate destiny as I don't have all of the evidence.

This I do know from Heb 6:4-6 that it is possible for people to fall away from the faith, commit apostasy, and can never be restored to repentance.

We see a very sad example of this with Charles Templeton. See: Charles Templeton's "Farewell to God"

Oz

Hi Oz - I agree with your assesment of Solomon - we just don't know. Though I tend to think he made it because I believe he wrote Lamentations at the end of his life.

Regarding Templeton - based on what I read in the link I have a hard time believing that guy was ever saved to begin with - but if he was then the Hebrews passage definately applies - including the part about never being restored again. Guys like that creep me out...
 
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shturt678s

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Jack,

I love your gentle, humble spirit displayed in your responses. May the Lord bless and encourage you today.

Sadly, a spell checker may not pick up loose from lose as both are legitimate words.

So in reading one of your earlier comments, did I gain the impression that it is your view that a person can lose his/her salvation? Was that because of apostasy or for some other reason?

The Brissy bloke from Down Under
Oz

I always thought you were from above ^_^ Thank you again Oz. I had classmates that I was close to that were composed of both Arminian and RH camps, ie, use to watch them almost get into fist fights, however they liked me where my Lutheran peers would get sick everytime they even seen me thus don't want you to get sick too - must have been my good looks when I had teeth back then/ ;)

I will say that not only can one lose their faith born into a full blown apostasy like in today's time (an apostasy has to occur in the church or it wouldn't be called an apostasy - IIThess.2:3), but in IIThess.2:10b all one has to do is not have an agape of the Truth (if someone happens to have it) and views this Truth as fallacious to insane by not even caring enough to check it out, GONG! Forever and ever looking for that minister that assured OSAS. :idea:

Old Jack inbetween "from above" and "down under," ie, Hawaii.

btw I don't want anyone looking for me except to give me a :hug: :o
 
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OzSpen

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I would say that if someone turned their heart away from God, it would be a sign of apostasy. Would you agree, or does more need to happen?
Colin Brown's (ed), New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (a shorter series of volumes than Kittel), 1978 (Zondervan/Paternoster), provides this definition:
Apostasy
(Gk. apostasia, rebellion, abandonment, apostasy; from apo, away, and histe4mi, stand). The deliberate repudiation of belief once formerly held. An apostate is one who thus abandons Christianity. In the post-NT church apostasy, murder and adultery were regarded for a time as unpardonable sins. Later it become pardonable only after great (in some cases, lifelong) public penance (Brown 1978:51).
If you equate 'turning their heart away from God' with 'deliberate repudiation of belief once formerly held ... one who abandons Christianity', then I can accept that this is a definition of apostasy. However, it is a deliberate abandonment of faith formerly held, in my understanding.
 
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Edial

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The lexicon meanings from Arndt & Gingrich, and Thayer, are falling away, apostasy. Rebellion has different connotations in English to apostasy.

We have evidence that Solomon loved God, was walking in the statutes of his father, David, and then committed gross sin with ungodly women and in serving other gods.

I don't know that I have the evidence from the OT or NT that Solomon committed apostasy and was damned, never to return to repentance. We have evidence that Solomon committed sin in engaging with ungodly women, serving other gods, but I don't know Solomon's ultimate destiny as I don't have all of the evidence.

This I do know from Heb 6:4-6 that it is possible for people to fall away from the faith, commit apostasy, and can never be restored to repentance.

We see a very sad example of this with Charles Templeton. See: Charles Templeton's "Farewell to God"

Oz
Oh, I am not judging Solomon at all. Wouldn't be a wise thing to do. :)
The Bible said his heart turned away and he also built temples to Molech - that's child sacrifice.

This is what I learned from Solomon, if one is wise one is not necessarily obedient.

I would read your link.

Thanks for the chat. :)
Ed
 
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Edial

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I always thought you were from above ^_^ Thank you again Oz. I had classmates that I was close to that were composed of both Arminian and RH camps, ie, use to watch them almost get into fist fights, however they liked me where my Lutheran peers would get sick everytime they even seen me thus don't want you to get sick too - must have been my good looks when I had teeth back then/ ;)

I will say that not only can one lose their faith born into a full blown apostasy like in today's time (an apostasy has to occur in the church or it wouldn't be called an apostasy - IIThess.2:3), but in IIThess.2:10b all one has to do is not have an agape of the Truth (if someone happens to have it) and views this Truth as fallacious to insane by not even caring enough to check it out, GONG! Forever and ever looking for that minister that assured OSAS. :idea:

Old Jack inbetween "from above" and "down under," ie, Hawaii.

btw I don't want anyone looking for me except to give me a :hug: :o
Certainly looks like Jack is Da Man ... but why am I surprised, he is a Lutheran. :liturgy:^_^:)
 
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Hammster

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Colin Brown's (ed), New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (a shorter series of volumes than Kittel), 1978 (Zondervan/Paternoster), provides this definition:

If you equate 'turning their heart away from God' with 'deliberate repudiation of belief once formerly held ... one who abandons Christianity', then I can accept that this is a definition of apostasy. However, it is a deliberate abandonment of faith formerly held, in my understanding.

He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. (1 Kings 11:3, 4 NASB)

Based on this, do you think he was apostate?
 
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OzSpen

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Hi Oz - I agree with your assesment of Solomon - we just don't know. Though I tend to think he made it because I believe he wrote Lamentations at the end of his life.

Regarding Templeton - based on what I read in the link I have a hard time believing that guy was ever saved to begin with - but if he was then the Hebrews passage definately applies - including the part about never being restored again. Guys like that creep me out...
Regarding Templeton, I have some think you could be heading in the right direction. Here's some evidence for that view:

Michael Patton has written this sad but challenging article, 'Billy Graham and Charles Templeton: A Sad Tale of Two Evangelists'. There is evidence here that Templeton may not have been intellectually convinced of the Gospel and the Scriptures. See this excerpt from Templeton's, Farewell to God:

“All our differences came to a head in a discussion which, better than anything I know, explains Billy Graham and his phenomenal success as an evangelist.
In the course of our conversation I said, ‘But, Billy, it’s simply not possible any longer to believe, for instance, the biblical account of creation. The world was not created over a period of days a few thousand years ago; it has evolved over millions of years. It’s not a matter of speculation; it’s a demonstrable fact.’
‘I don’t accept that’ Billy said. ‘And there are reputable scholars who don’t.’
‘Who are these scholars?’ I said. ‘Men in conservative Christian colleges[?]‘
‘Most of them, yes,’ he said. ‘But that is not the point. I believe the Genesis account of creation because it’s in the Bible. I’ve discovered something in my ministry: When I take the Bible literally, when I proclaim it as the word of God, my preaching has power. When I stand on the platform and say, ‘God says,’ or ‘The Bible says,’ the Holy Spirit uses me. There are results. Wiser men than you or I have been arguing questions like this for centuries. I don’t have the time or the intellect to examine all sides of the theological dispute, so I’ve decided once for all to stop questioning and accept the Bible as God’s word.’
‘But Billy,’ I protested, ‘You cannot do that. You don’t dare stop thinking about the most important question in life. Do it and you begin to die. It’s intellectual suicide.’”
‘I don’t know about anybody else,’ he said, ‘but I’ve decided that that’s the path for me.’”
(Farewell to God, 7-8)

Michael Patton's comment was:
Templeton, as his own story makes plain (p. 3), never truly reached a point where he was intellectually convicted of the truthfulness of Christianity (what the reformers called assensus). Assensus represents the conviction we have in our minds. Assent of the mind is vital to our faith. Graham, according to this testimony, had enough assensus to make a decision. He was not going to be an eternal “tire-kicker” with regard to Christianity. Sure, he could have waited, like Templeton, until every possible objection to the faith was answered, but this would amount to a failure of modernistic irrationality. We can never have all our questions answered. At some point there must be a sufficiency in probability.
You could be on the right track. Templeton may never have been a believer and was preaching a superficial Gospel that sounded like the real thing, but it wasn't. One comment by another person at the end of this article online was:
The interview former atheist, Lee Strobel conducted with Templeton. When Strobel asked him about Jesus, he said, ‘“he’s the most important thing in my life.” He stammered: “I . . . I . . . I adore him . . . Everything good I know, everything decent I know, everything pure I know, I learned from Jesus.” Strobel was stunned. He listened in shock. He says that Templeton’s voice began to crack. He then said, “I . . . miss . . . him!” With that the old man burst into tears; with shaking frame, he wept bitterly.’
As I write this rather lengthy response, another point comes to my mind: What are we doing in preaching a Gospel that is not substantive or invitations to Christ that sound trifling: 'Come to Christ', 'Give your heart to Jesus', 'Raise your hand if you want to receive Jesus', 'Come to the altar if you want salvation', 'Pray the sinner's prayer', etc.

Or is that too harsh??:o
Sincerely in Christ,
Oz
 
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OzSpen

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He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. (1 Kings 11:3, 4 NASB)

Based on this, do you think he was apostate?
We don't have the end of the story. I will not be making a statement about Solomon's final destiny because I don't know the total story.

However, isn't it your view that he could not become apostate if he loved God?
 
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AndOne

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Regarding Templeton, I have some think you could be heading in the right direction. Here's some evidence for that view:

Michael Patton has written this sad but challenging article, 'Billy Graham and Charles Templeton: A Sad Tale of Two Evangelists'. There is evidence here that Templeton may not have been intellectually convinced of the Gospel and the Scriptures. See this excerpt from Templeton's, Farewell to God:

“All our differences came to a head in a discussion which, better than anything I know, explains Billy Graham and his phenomenal success as an evangelist.
In the course of our conversation I said, ‘But, Billy, it’s simply not possible any longer to believe, for instance, the biblical account of creation. The world was not created over a period of days a few thousand years ago; it has evolved over millions of years. It’s not a matter of speculation; it’s a demonstrable fact.’
‘I don’t accept that’ Billy said. ‘And there are reputable scholars who don’t.’
‘Who are these scholars?’ I said. ‘Men in conservative Christian colleges[?]‘
‘Most of them, yes,’ he said. ‘But that is not the point. I believe the Genesis account of creation because it’s in the Bible. I’ve discovered something in my ministry: When I take the Bible literally, when I proclaim it as the word of God, my preaching has power. When I stand on the platform and say, ‘God says,’ or ‘The Bible says,’ the Holy Spirit uses me. There are results. Wiser men than you or I have been arguing questions like this for centuries. I don’t have the time or the intellect to examine all sides of the theological dispute, so I’ve decided once for all to stop questioning and accept the Bible as God’s word.’
‘But Billy,’ I protested, ‘You cannot do that. You don’t dare stop thinking about the most important question in life. Do it and you begin to die. It’s intellectual suicide.’”
‘I don’t know about anybody else,’ he said, ‘but I’ve decided that that’s the path for me.’”
(Farewell to God, 7-8)

Michael Patton's comment was:
Templeton, as his own story makes plain (p. 3), never truly reached a point where he was intellectually convicted of the truthfulness of Christianity (what the reformers called assensus). Assensus represents the conviction we have in our minds. Assent of the mind is vital to our faith. Graham, according to this testimony, had enough assensus to make a decision. He was not going to be an eternal “tire-kicker” with regard to Christianity. Sure, he could have waited, like Templeton, until every possible objection to the faith was answered, but this would amount to a failure of modernistic irrationality. We can never have all our questions answered. At some point there must be a sufficiency in probability.
You could be on the right track. Templeton may never have been a believer and was preaching a superficial Gospel that sounded like the real thing, but it wasn't. One comment by another person at the end of this article online was:
The interview former atheist, Lee Strobel conducted with Templeton. When Strobel asked him about Jesus, he said, ‘“he’s the most important thing in my life.” He stammered: “I . . . I . . . I adore him . . . Everything good I know, everything decent I know, everything pure I know, I learned from Jesus.” Strobel was stunned. He listened in shock. He says that Templeton’s voice began to crack. He then said, “I . . . miss . . . him!” With that the old man burst into tears; with shaking frame, he wept bitterly.’
As I write this rather lengthy response, another point comes to my mind: What are we doing in preaching a Gospel that is not substantive or invitations to Christ that sound trifling: 'Come to Christ', 'Give your heart to Jesus', 'Raise your hand if you want to receive Jesus', 'Come to the altar if you want salvation', 'Pray the sinner's prayer', etc.

Or is that too harsh??:o
Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

Not too harsh at all.....
 
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OzSpen

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Brissy blokes can still be from above, but down under. Talk about confusion.:confused:

Good looks and teeth back then also brings memories for me. The looks never were there, but the teeth still are OK.

You mentioned apostasy in the churches. What are the signs that you think we should watch in the church to identify such apostasy? What action should be taken? Do you see some of this apostasy being played out though modernist and postmodernist approaches to the biblical text and to God Himself?

In Christ,
Oz (your Brissy mate)



I always thought you were from above ^_^ Thank you again Oz. I had classmates that I was close to that were composed of both Arminian and RH camps, ie, use to watch them almost get into fist fights, however they liked me where my Lutheran peers would get sick everytime they even seen me thus don't want you to get sick too - must have been my good looks when I had teeth back then/ ;)

I will say that not only can one lose their faith born into a full blown apostasy like in today's time (an apostasy has to occur in the church or it wouldn't be called an apostasy - IIThess.2:3), but in IIThess.2:10b all one has to do is not have an agape of the Truth (if someone happens to have it) and views this Truth as fallacious to insane by not even caring enough to check it out, GONG! Forever and ever looking for that minister that assured OSAS. :idea:

Old Jack inbetween "from above" and "down under," ie, Hawaii.

btw I don't want anyone looking for me except to give me a :hug: :o
 
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Hammster

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We don't have the end of the story. I will not be making a statement about Solomon's final destiny because I don't know the total story.

However, isn't it your view that he could not become apostate if he loved God?

Why does it matter if we have the end story? His heart turned away from God. Isn't that a definition of apostate?
 
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Why does it matter if we have the end story? His heart turned away from God. Isn't that a definition of apostate?
That's your definition of apostate.

This is the definition I provided, based on the NT Greek language: Apostasy is the deliberate repudiation of belief once formerly held. An apostate is one who thus abandons God/Christ.

 
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shturt678s

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Brissy blokes can still be from above, but down under. Talk about confusion.:confused:

I received a secular education working my way through college working summers in the Forest Service and eves cleaning restaurants as an athiest except when close to death then needed God; only to go through confusion that there was not only a God, but He died in my place for me - imploded within believing a lie for so long - still bothers me a little at my old toothless age. :blush:

Honorable military discharge and completed a primo Lutheran Seminary using my G.I. Bill only to find out modern Lutheranism garbage compared to pre-1930 ELCA, ie, went through about 2 to 3 months of depression, however determined to complete my graduate year coming away with a teaching degree ancient languages. This also still bothers me at times.

My end point, after each depression and confusion, God took me by the hand to get me peace within where I'm at today where (OPINION ONLY) every seminary on the planet combines truth with error let alone the apostasy in the churches today; however within each former setting there are Christians that are "within" the Kingdom of God, where most Christians are in only "outwardly" thinking they are in "inwardly".

Good looks and teeth back then also brings memories for me. The looks never were there, but the teeth still are OK.

You mentioned apostasy in the churches. What are the signs that you think we should watch in the church to identify such apostasy? What action should be taken? Do you see some of this apostasy being played out though modernist and postmodernist approaches to the biblical text and to God Himself?

In Christ,
Oz (your Brissy mate)

If my former premise is in the truthful direction then the solution is first and foremost get the Parables regarding the Kingdom of God in Matt.13:3-13:44, etc. unveiled, for example, the parable of the Sower in Matt. (not in Mk, and Lk.) reveals the different kinds of "hearing" the Word finds. Mark and Luke a little different. Even when Jesus interprets in v.18, etc. still veiled, astonishing!

Old, no longer depressed nor confused, Jack
 
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That's your definition of apostate.

This is the definition I provided, based on the NT Greek language: Apostasy is the deliberate repudiation of belief once formerly held. An apostate is one who thus abandons God/Christ.


So you don't think that's what scripture says Solomon did in 1 Kings 11?
 
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Edial

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So you don't think that's what scripture says Solomon did in 1 Kings 11?
Just looked it up.
I don't think it was apostasy.
The text says his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD.

1KI 11:1 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter--Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, "You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods." Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.
 
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Just looked it up.
I don't think it was apostasy.
The text says his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD.

1KI 11:1 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter--Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, "You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods." Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.
:thumbsup:
 
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