Was Solomon saved?

[OzSpen]

Doing from memory ... he even followed Molech, that means child sacrifice.
What is going on?

He's a sinner - gross sinner - who needed to repent.

 

[Edial]

Agreed.

So how do you exclude Solomon when 1 Kings 3:3 states, 'Solomon loved the Lord, walking in the statutes of David his father'?

Yes, he had considerable sins that needed forgiving, but we are told he loved God and followed the (godly) statutes given by his father, David.

But then he clearly stopped loving the LORD.
Christ said that loving him means following him and loving each other as Christian brothers.

And sins he had in order for them to be forgiven Solomon needed to ask for forgiveness.

 

[Edial]

Obedience of faith effected through repentance is first and foremost thus Solomon blew it at the end yet grace was there, ie, gives me a crack at it - definitely not blowing it in my end days learning from Solomon - God won't be so generous with me. Solomon squeezed through that narrow gate due to external purposes of our Lord is the best way I can even understand it.

Old Jack

btw been a long time since I've been in this terrific area and thank you, ie, this needed revisiting. And needs more revisiting

OK, but how could he squeeze through the gates if Apostle Paul said about himself - I finished the race, I kept the faith.

Did Solomon keep the faith?

 

[Edial]

He's a sinner - gross sinner - who needed to repent.

OK. But what happens to sinners who don't repent?

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, but Abraham made the faith chapter of Hebrews 11(?), Solomon did not.
Abraham was known for obedience, Solomon was not.

Elisha didn't make it to Heb 11 specifically by name. Was he saved?

 

[Edial]

Elisha didn't make it to Heb 11 specifically by name. Was he saved?

Actually he was named indirectly in v.32 as "prophets".

 

[shturt678s]

He's a sinner - gross sinner - who needed to repent.

Just a head's up that the O.T. had somewhat of a different understanding of "repentance" than the new covenant.

Old Jack

Solomon is a good example of this, ie, God did not fully remove His grace from him. :o

 

[Edial]

Just a head's up that the O.T. had somewhat of a different understanding of "repentance" than the new covenant.

Old Jack

Solomon is a good example of this, ie, God did not fully remove His grace from him. :o

OK. What is the OT understanding of repentance as compared to today?

 

[dcalling]

OK. Fair enough.
What do we do then?
Do we look at Solomon as an example or not?

Also, what type of wisdom do you think he had?
Wisdom of God or the regular wisdom?

I doubt Solomon is a good example, as others has posted compare him to Abraham.

According to the Bible, his wisdom is given by God, and he is a smart man. However wisdom is nothing, as Adam and Eve had wisdom from the apple but lost God, and the Bible constantly tell us that the wise man and arrogant will be put to shame.

And his free will choose to oppose God, he knows full well that God forbid him to marry those women, most likely he choose sexual desires over God (remember the example of the rich young guy who ask Jesus how to enter heaven, but went away greatly worried, because he is rich and Jesus told him to sell all and go follow him? The young guy choose his property over ever lasting life, and Solomon choose pretty women)

 

[Edial]

I doubt Solomon is a good example, as others has posted compare him to Abraham.

According to the Bible, his wisdom is given by God, and he is a smart man. However wisdom is nothing, as Adam and Eve had wisdom from the apple but lost God, and the Bible constantly tell us that the wise man and arrogant will be put to shame.

And his free will choose to oppose God, he knows full well that God forbid him to marry those women, most likely he choose sexual desires over God (remember the example of the rich young guy who ask Jesus how to enter heaven, but went away greatly worried, because he is rich and Jesus told him to sell all and go follow him? The young guy choose his property over ever lasting life, and Solomon choose pretty women)

Right. So maybe the wisdom he had was not from Heaven, but of the world.
Didn't he say there is nothing new under the sun?

And the young boy also tried using this wisdom to no avail.

Concerning Adam and Eve, the fruit they ate was of knowledge of the difference between good and evil.
So, the only way to know the difference is to actually experience the difference - we are still experiencing it.

We are sinners because we ASKED (Adam and Eve did) to know the difference between the good and evil.

 

[dcalling]

Right. So maybe the wisdom he had was not from Heaven, but of the world.
Didn't he say there is nothing new under the sun?

And the young boy also tried using this wisdom to no avail.

Concerning Adam and Eve, the fruit they ate was of knowledge of the difference between good and evil.
So, the only way to know the difference is to actually experience the difference - we are still experiencing it.

We are sinners because we ASKED (Adam and Eve did) to know the difference between the good and evil.

I still think his wisdom is from Heaven (in the Bible God give him several choices in a dream and he choose wisdom). I would say it is actually true that there is nothing new under the sun. All of our great new inventions is just some incremental improvement of something old based on something we discovered (i.e. the internet is possible based on the discover of electricity and semiconductors).

He has the wisdom, but choose to ignore it, and God does not bend one's free will, so God let Solomon chose his own path of corruption.

 

[Edial]

I still think his wisdom is from Heaven (in the Bible God give him several choices in a dream and he choose wisdom). I would say it is actually true that there is nothing new under the sun. All of our great new inventions is just some incremental improvement of something old based on something we discovered (i.e. the internet is possible based on the discover of electricity and semiconductors).

He has the wisdom, but choose to ignore it, and God does not bend one's free will, so God let Solomon chose his own path of corruption.

Let's compare the wisdoms ...
Let's look at his life as v.13 says ...
Does he belong in v.15,16 or 13,17,18?

JAS 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

JAS 3:17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

I think what Solomon could figure out with earthly wisdom is that all things (including earthly wisdom) do not matter ... just walk in the fear of God.

ECC 12:13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.

ECC 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.

OK.

And about nothing new under the sun ... when I see these funny pictures in pyramids that look like Egyptians had some unusual technology, I remember what Solomon said.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[OzSpen]

Actually he was named indirectly in v.32 as "prophets".

My statement was 'specifically by name'. Yes, I understand from Heb 11:32 that 'prophets' were mentioned generically but we have no idea who was included and who was excluded among the prophets.

 

[janxharris]

He did accumulate 300 wives and 700 concubines.
And they were pagan, the exact opposite to what God told him.
I wonder what makes someone so clearly disobey God.

It is other way round...700 wives and 300 concubines. Sorry to be pedantic.

This fact (Solomon's polygyny) has always bothered me because nowhere in scripture is this explicitly condemned. In fact, if we look at David then it gets worse:

2 Samuel 12:7-8
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

And yet Jesus says in Matthew 19:9
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Now, although the focus here is on divorce, Jesus makes it clear that a person is considered to be still married if they divorce for a reason other than 'sexual immorality' and hence the charge of adultery for remarrying which would only stand if one was actually still married. So despite the fact that Jesus implicitly establishes polygamy as adultery, God gave David wives (plural) and would have given him more.

Thou shalt not commit adultery! And yet God gives David wives...?

Help.

 

[Edial]

It is other way round...700 wives and 300 concubines. Sorry to be pedantic.

I think we could agree on 1000.

This fact (Solomon's polygyny) has always bothered me because nowhere in scripture is this explicitly condemned. In fact, if we look at David then it gets worse:

2 Samuel 12:7-8
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

And yet Jesus says in Matthew 19:9
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Now, although the focus here is on divorce, Jesus makes it clear that a person is considered to be still married if they divorce for a reason other than 'sexual immorality' and hence the charge of adultery for remarrying which would only stand if one was actually still married. So despite the fact that Jesus implicitly establishes polygamy as adultery, God gave David wives (plural) and would have given him more.

Thou shalt not commit adultery! And yet God gives David wives...?

Help.

But polygamy was allowed under the Law ... ex. Dt 21:15 ...

I have another view on divorce based on statement - what God put together let man not separate.

For some odd reason people think that every marriage is put together by God. Where do they get such ideas?
Solomon's wives were clearly not provided by God.

So if you "divorce" a woman whom God did not put together it is not really a divorce in God's eyes because He never put them together ... it is really a different way of thinking now, isn't it?
Catholics even call it annulment.

Of course, you need to test to know if wife is from God or is it just a Las Vegas night out or a way to get immigration papers.

All this marrying, remarrying in the OT ... things changed when Christ came.

 

[Edial]

My statement was 'specifically by name'. Yes, I understand from Heb 11:32 that 'prophets' were mentioned generically but we have no idea who was included and who was excluded among the prophets.

Well, assumption is there is no prophet who has no faith, so ...

 

[OzSpen]

janx,

I think that there is some insight in 1 Kings 11:1-14 to help deal with this difficult issue:

1 Kings 11:1-14

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

Solomon Turns from the Lord

11 Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2 from the nations concerning which the Lord had said to the people of Israel, “You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. 3 He had 700 wives, princesses, and 300 concubines. And his wives turned away his heart. 4 For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and did not wholly follow the Lord, as David his father had done. 7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 8 And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their gods.
The Lord Raises Adversaries

9 And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not keep what the Lord commanded. 11 Therefore the Lord said to Solomon, “Since this has been your practice and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant. 12 Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen.”
14 And the Lord raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite. He was of the royal house in Edom (ESV).

We know from 1 Kings 3:3 that 'Solomon loved the Lord, walking in the statutes of his father David'.

BUT, BUT!

This same Solomon chose to love many foreign women who turned his heart away from the Lord. The God who forbade adultery (Ex 20:14) had that commandment violated by Solomon.

AND THERE WERE CONSEQUENCES of his polygamy, etc. and 1 Kings 14 tells us what they were.

So the lesson is that a person can love the Lord and still be tempted by an adversary and foreign women as in Solomon's case and depart from following the Lord.

In Christ,
Oz

It is other way round...700 wives and 300 concubines. Sorry to be pedantic.

This fact (Solomon's polygyny) has always bothered me because nowhere in scripture is this explicitly condemned. In fact, if we look at David then it gets worse:

2 Samuel 12:7-8
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

And yet Jesus says in Matthew 19:9
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Now, although the focus here is on divorce, Jesus makes it clear that a person is considered to be still married if they divorce for a reason other than 'sexual immorality' and hence the charge of adultery for remarrying which would only stand if one was actually still married. So despite the fact that Jesus implicitly establishes polygamy as adultery, God gave David wives (plural) and would have given him more.

Thou shalt not commit adultery! And yet God gives David wives...?

Help.

 

[Hammster]

He's a sinner - gross sinner - who needed to repent.

At what point do you believe that someone loses their salvation?

 

[OzSpen]

At what point do you believe that someone loses their salvation?

You have stated on CF that you don't believe a person can lose his/her salvation, so why are you asking the question?

 

[Hammster]

You have stated on CF that you don't believe a person can lose his/her salvation, so why are you asking the question?

Because you believe it. And so I'm wondering at what point it happens, and how it relates to Solomon.